An Egyptian baby born with two heads was in stable condition on Sunday after doctors at a provincial hospital removed one of the heads in a 13-hour operation, the doctors said.
Strange Baby.....
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Strange Baby.....
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ok ... whoah... freaky shizzle
Man... I feel real wierd about them killing the twin too.. I mean, it was capable of smiling and blinking...Who is to say that it was not a sentient, rational, human entity? Would it have developed a capacity to communicate if they'd allowed it to live longer??
As far as I'm concerned...It horrifies me that they killed it but I don't know what else they could have done? Doomed the both of them to a life of utter freakdom?
Man... I feel real wierd about them killing the twin too.. I mean, it was capable of smiling and blinking...Who is to say that it was not a sentient, rational, human entity? Would it have developed a capacity to communicate if they'd allowed it to live longer??
As far as I'm concerned...It horrifies me that they killed it but I don't know what else they could have done? Doomed the both of them to a life of utter freakdom?
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Although the extra head had no body, the article indicates that it had a brain and at least some motor function. So it is possible that it was aware.Lobber wrote:No, not really. You can't compare the two side by side. Too many variables are different.
They eliminated a potential sentient life that couldnâ??t live off of life support. How is that different â?? in terms of ending a life - than aborting a fetus?
A viable fetus is only capable of self sustained life after about 20 weeks or so and that is with some major medical help. A 10 week old fetus is not even remotely capable of sustained life. Besides, capability for sustained life is not the test of sentience, and based on the information in the article, sentience was a possibility.Lobber wrote:A viable fetus = capable of self sustained life
A fetal parasite = incapable of self sustained life
It died as an individual long before it was born when it failed to fully develope. It is essentially a stillborn baby.
The extra head was alive not dead, so it wasnâ??t â??essentially a stillborn babyâ?
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A better way to state this would be:Lobber wrote:A viable fetus = capable of self sustained life
A fetal parasite = incapable of self sustained life
A normal fetus will eventually be capable of self-sustained life.
A second head will never be capable of self-sustained life, and will likely lead to the quick death of the sibling it's attached to.
This is similar to abortion when the life of both mother and child are at stake -- choosing between two deaths or one. Once they're really sure there's no way to save both, most people will reluctantly decide to save one by killing the other, rather than losing both. It's not an easy choice, but it's not one I'd hold against anyone. It's very different from elective abortion, when they're choosing between zero deaths and one and they choose one. There's a significant moral distinction based on the alternatives.
So, yes, as Dedman said, "[t]hey basically killed a potentially sentient being in order to save another one." How is that different -- in terms of ending a life -- than abortion? It's not different in terms of ending a life. It's only different in terms of the alternatives -- two deaths, or zero deaths.
"Some" might say the same could be said of a developing fetus -- but only because those "some" are intentionally erasing the key distinction.
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Tricord- I'm sorry where in the cited article did it say the parasitic twin had no spinal cortex? Did you find that elsewhere or did you just assume that to be the case? I spent some time googling this due to the disturbing nature of the material and no-where can I find that information.
AFAIK There was no life-threatening reason to force removal of the parasitic twin. Further, the twin was, quite possibly, sentient, self aware and conscious. Whether or not it would have reached full human potential or been massively retarded is up to question.
Given the POSSIBILITIES, not removing the parasitic twin doomed the pair to live as freaks but to me it seems that the alleviation of freakhood may have become justification for for what might amount to medical murder?
I am making a lot of assumptions here, of course as I don't know all the facts.
Again, I'm not really taking a side, I'm just saying that I'm really struck by the ethical quandary here. Arguably, as Lothar stated, a case could be made that this situation would become life threatening in short order to one or both of the pair, and that therefore a decision to save one life of the two was justified.
I know one thing: I wouldn't want to make that decision, when a month or a year down the line some method of preserving both lives could be discovered.
AFAIK There was no life-threatening reason to force removal of the parasitic twin. Further, the twin was, quite possibly, sentient, self aware and conscious. Whether or not it would have reached full human potential or been massively retarded is up to question.
Given the POSSIBILITIES, not removing the parasitic twin doomed the pair to live as freaks but to me it seems that the alleviation of freakhood may have become justification for for what might amount to medical murder?
I am making a lot of assumptions here, of course as I don't know all the facts.
Again, I'm not really taking a side, I'm just saying that I'm really struck by the ethical quandary here. Arguably, as Lothar stated, a case could be made that this situation would become life threatening in short order to one or both of the pair, and that therefore a decision to save one life of the two was justified.
I know one thing: I wouldn't want to make that decision, when a month or a year down the line some method of preserving both lives could be discovered.
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Yes, most likely. That's a case that needs to be made to the people in charge of the decision, though, not to a bunch of us on an internet board. Most likely, the people involved in the decision process had a pretty good idea of what sort of chances they were looking at...WarAdvocat wrote:a case could be made that this situation would become life threatening in short order...
Nobody would. It's not an easy decision, no matter how you look at it. But it's one that you sometimes have to make...I wouldn't want to make that decision, when a month or a year down the line some method of preserving both lives could be discovered.
The "creature" would have no way of communicating. It has no lungs, and thus cannot speak. It has no limbs and thus cannot sign. It has no possible way to learn communication and thus would not be able to prove its own sentience. It could not reproduce, and that is one of the requirements of sentience. Having no genitalia nor any other internal organs, it is not a viable life form.
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Um, reproductive ability has absolutely nothing to do with sentience. You would say that a normal human being who was born sterile would not be sentient? As for the communication issue, who's to say that there would be no way for it to communicate? It clearly showed emotion, in one form or another. With advances in biomedical research, who's to say how long it will be until we develop neural interfaces that allow the blind to see and the deaf to hear? Research is already quickly advancing in this field.Lobber wrote:The "creature" would have no way of communicating. It has no lungs, and thus cannot speak. It has no limbs and thus cannot sign. It has no possible way to learn communication and thus would not be able to prove its own sentience. It could not reproduce, and that is one of the requirements of sentience. Having no genitalia nor any other internal organs, it is not a viable life form.
I'm not sure where I stand ethically on this issue. It's a very tough call to make, either way. Just one of the questions it raises is, "Should the end justify the means?" In other words, if the parasitic twin was indeed sentient, could you justify the killing of one sentient being to save another? Would it be right to choose who lives and who dies? In a way, I think that if the parasitic twin was indeed sentient and did not pose any immediate medical risk, I do not think that I would choose to kill it. If it did pose a health risk...this is the real issue. From what I remember of a morality class I took in high school, in a situation like that, one could not ethically kill one being to save the other. In that case, saving a life would not justify taking it. It's rough, though, and as I said, I haven't really made up my mind one way or another.
Not to belabor the point Lobber, but you really do astound me with your lack of understanding of the world we live in. I want to point out a few things, then I will go away.
adj.
1. Having sense perception; conscious.
2. Experiencing sensation or feeling.
Please tell me where the ability to reproduce has anything to do with the ability to perceive ones surroundings. Are you suggesting that people that are born with reproductive abnormalities that make reproduction impossible are not sentient?
One doesnâ??t need to speak or sign to be able to communicate. Helen Keller proved that one can learn to communicate quite effectively under the most arduous of circumstances.Lobber wrote:The "creature" would have no way of communicating. It has no lungs, and thus cannot speak. It has no limbs and thus cannot sign. It has no possible way to learn communication and thus would not be able to prove its own sentience.
senâ?¢tientLobber wrote:It could not reproduce, and that is one of the requirements of sentience. .
adj.
1. Having sense perception; conscious.
2. Experiencing sensation or feeling.
Please tell me where the ability to reproduce has anything to do with the ability to perceive ones surroundings. Are you suggesting that people that are born with reproductive abnormalities that make reproduction impossible are not sentient?
I would certainly call the brain an â??internal organâ?Lobber wrote:Having no genitalia nor any other internal organs, it is not a viable life form.