DescentBB

Heretic wrote:So were you absent from the last election where the far left was portraying Obama as the messiah?

A political religion often elevates its leaders to near-godlike status.

OBAMA BE THY NAME

THY CHANGE SHALL COME

THY WILL BE DONE ...

Yep no Political Religion going on in America.

Is this supported by state policy and institutionalized indoctrination in schools? No. It is not.

These examples you've given are First Amendment protected speech and have nothing to do with an institutionalized political cult.

Besides, given the way the far right idolizes Ronald Reagan...

Kilarin wrote:That sounds like the culture to me. Would you mind clarifying?

well, just a brief synopsis, their culture includes the language, their food, arts, their dialects, and their music. a big part of their is (are you sitting down for this?) family. They also put a huge emphasis on honor.

Yes you're right. They even have honor killings

not to mention there's more than 9000 Muslims in active service in the US military.

Honor killings are part of their revenge system.

null0010 wrote:

Heretic wrote:So were you absent from the last election where the far left was portraying Obama as the messiah?

A political religion often elevates its leaders to near-godlike status.

OBAMA BE THY NAME

THY CHANGE SHALL COME

THY WILL BE DONE ...

Yep no Political Religion going on in America.

Is this supported by state policy and institutionalized indoctrination in schools? No. It is not.

These examples you've given are First Amendment protected speech and have nothing to do with an institutionalized political cult.

Besides, given the way the far right idolizes Ronald Reagan...

You're right it's not just the left who have made it a religion.

Just read this article from the left.

Politics as religion in America

That sort of thing tends to happen when your political system supports black and white thinking as a result of an outdated party system. As Bertrand Russell once said, \"the whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.\"

Ferno wrote:not to mention there's more than 9000 Muslims in active service in the US military.

And, as I hope I've made clear, I support their right to be there. I support the right of Muslims, or people of ANY religion, to worship as they please and to live in this country with the exact same freedoms and responsibilities that everyone else has.

I think that Islamic culture has MANY admirable qualities. The west threw away most of their science during the dark ages while the Islamic countries preserved and advanced it. While Christianity in the west was tormenting the world with the "Inquisition", many Islamic nations were a safe haven for people of different religions.

And Islam is NOT one big monolithic culture. Thats why I suggested Venn Diagrams as a good way to describe culture. Islam has parts I admire, and parts I despise. (Same with Christianity, by the way)

But, overall, right now I see some bigger (at least numerically) problems in the Islam circle than most others. And I think one of the biggest influences in making me feel it's a problem is that Islam does not seem to police it's own radicals.

When Christian wacko's start bombing innocents, who hunts them down? Generally nations that are majority Christian. We police our own. This doesn't seem to be the case with the Islamic wacko's. Even when the general Islamic culture says terrorism is wrong, a frightening third of them admit they partially support the idea, and the other two thirds don't seem to be in any rush to DO anything about it. They ignore it and other cultures have to come in and do the policing. Which just increases the perception that it's a war of Islam vs. other religions, instead of a war of rational people against irrational.

Kilarin, stop making sense. It just makes the deniers look stupid. Have you no compassion?

Kilarin wrote:When Christian wacko's start bombing innocents, who hunts them down? Generally nations that are majority Christian. We police our own. This doesn't seem to be the case with the Islamic wacko's. Even when the general Islamic culture says terrorism is wrong, a frightening third of them admit they partially support the idea, and the other two thirds don't seem to be in any rush to DO anything about it. They ignore it and other cultures have to come in and do the policing. Which just increases the perception that it's a war of Islam vs. other religions, instead of a war of rational people against irrational.

Indeed.

I think they have this stance because I believe it ties into their revenge killings. Blood for blood and an eye for an eye has been their disposition for centuries. A foreigner (a westerner) either intentionally or accidentally kills a family member. that family takes it upon themselves to bring retribution in the form of blood by killing another foreigner..

and the cycle repeats.

Sad really, but it's been so ingrained into their psyche that it's extremely hard to break.

Ferno wrote:...

Sad really, but it's been so ingrained into their psyche that it's extremely hard to break.

But weren't all clans/tribes/races around the globe like that in the early stages? What keeps some from progressing. They aren't inherently savage, the middle east is full of an enlightened people...the cradle of civilization giving birth to philosophy etc.... yet they cling to some seriously primitive traditions.

I know it will earn me another bigots reference somewhere but I have to point at Islam, it is the only thing I can think of that can explain it.

Will Will Will don't ya know it's because of the Anglo Saxon Military-industrial Complex and Imperialist Rule of America and that's keeping them in the dark ages. Just ask any leftist. I think some one just mention that in this thread or another.

American imperialism

Heretic wrote:Will Will Will don't ya know it's because of the Anglo Saxon Military-industrial Complex and Imperialist Rule of America and that's keeping them in the dark ages. Just ask any leftist. I think some one just mention that in this thread or another.

American imperialism

I have heard just as many compelling arguments to support this idea as I have to support "Islam makes people insane."

null0010 wrote:

Heretic wrote:Will Will Will don't ya know it's because of the Anglo Saxon Military-industrial Complex and Imperialist Rule of America and that's keeping them in the dark ages. Just ask any leftist. I think some one just mention that in this thread or another.

American imperialism

I have heard just as many compelling arguments to support this idea as I have to support "Islam makes people insane."

I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Islam makes people insane. Just another one of your straw man creations I think.

I do think Islam is the main tool used by radicals to justify spreading their racist/fascist leanings, in many cases turning that hatred into law and tradition. And the success they have had has kept large portions of the middle east from keeping up with western civilization.

Then again I could be wrong, centiries of xenophobic fundamentalism had little effect...it wasn't until Cheney and Haliburton took over the U.S. that those wonderful people turned into terrorists

Will Robinson wrote:

null0010 wrote:

Heretic wrote:Will Will Will don't ya know it's because of the Anglo Saxon Military-industrial Complex and Imperialist Rule of America and that's keeping them in the dark ages. Just ask any leftist. I think some one just mention that in this thread or another.

American imperialism

I have heard just as many compelling arguments to support this idea as I have to support "Islam makes people insane."

I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Islam makes people insane. Just another one of your straw man creations I think.

That's not exactly a strawman. More like poor word choice. Let's try again. "Islam stunts the growth of cultures."

Will Robinson wrote:But weren't all clans/tribes/races around the globe like that in the early stages? What keeps some from progressing. They aren't inherently savage, the middle east is full of an enlightened people...the cradle of civilization giving birth to philosophy etc.... yet they cling to some seriously primitive traditions.

a huge problem facing a lot of muslims these days is the desire to be progressive and to welcome the new ideas the world has brought about, but they're also torn by the urge to keep their traditions alive.

Will Robinson wrote:

null0010 wrote:

Heretic wrote:Will Will Will don't ya know it's because of the Anglo Saxon Military-industrial Complex and Imperialist Rule of America and that's keeping them in the dark ages. Just ask any leftist. I think some one just mention that in this thread or another.

American imperialism

I have heard just as many compelling arguments to support this idea as I have to support "Islam makes people insane."

I haven't heard anyone make the argument that Islam makes people insane. Just another one of your straw man creations I think.

I do think Islam is the main tool used by radicals to justify spreading their racist/fascist leanings, in many cases turning that hatred into law and tradition. And the success they have had has kept large portions of the middle east from keeping up with western civilization.

Then again I could be wrong, centiries of xenophobic fundamentalism had little effect...it wasn't until Cheney and Haliburton took over the U.S. that those wonderful people turned into terrorists

See I told you Will the leftist actually believes it's America's fault that they can't get out of the dark ages. The left hate the idea of America. That's why they are trying to turn it into Europe.

null0010 wrote:"Islam stunts the growth of cultures."

Just to clarify, that is NOT what I've been saying. I've been saying that the CURRENT culture of Islamic peoples has some SERIOUS problems. Same religion in different times did not have those problems.

null0010 wrote:...
That's not exactly a strawman. More like poor word choice. Let's try again. "Islam stunts the growth of cultures."

OK, maybe I used a poor choice as well. I said:
" I have to point at Islam, it is the only thing I can think of that can explain it."

I don't mean that if one is exposed to Islam he miraculously 'becomes stunted'. What I'm trying to say is that Islam is not only a common thread found among these cultures but it is the means by which they are compelled to accept so many poor choices and bad guidance/leadership. Those choices are what is keeping them back.
I don't think you can just blame the radicals for wanting to carry out abuse to women, murder infidels, etc. etc. You have to put some of the blame on the followers for sustaining the practices and policies.

The religion doesn't have enough tolerance built into it.
It seems where the Christians were told a long time ago to turn the other cheek the Muslins were told to twist the knife when it is in the back of their enemy...the underlying philosophies within the two religions is the fertilizer that has grown two very different crops.

.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 47,00.html

I've got some gripes with the Islamic culture. But come on folks. What's the point of living in an America like this?

You should be free to practice your religion here. You should be free to build a church, synagogue, mosque, or temple to satan if you wish, wherever you own property that is zoned for such.

This is just... shameful.

Yes you would think that.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/dec/07121205.html

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56544

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/de ... gbible.htm

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/jun/10060911.html

But it happens all the time.

Heretic wrote:But it happens all the time

Yep, but ALL sides seem to be equal offenders:
http://www.truth-out.org/troops-punishe ... ncert62504

I see little respect for religious freedom and separation of Church and State from the left OR the right. Both sides want the government to back up their philosophical position and punish those who don't comply or agree.

It's a scary world...

Kilarin wrote: It's a scary world...

Only going to get more scary.

Kilarin wrote:http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 47,00.html

I've got some gripes with the Islamic culture. But come on folks. What's the point of living in an America like this?

You should be free to practice your religion here. You should be free to build a church, synagogue, mosque, or temple to satan if you wish, wherever you own property that is zoned for such.

This is just... shameful.

1950's all over again.

Temple to satan? Must be Ferno's new religion.

More on-topic, it's a sad statement when Cracked has just about the most sensible take on the issue out there.

You know, I've found Cracked to be more sensible than most websites out there. Funny how comedy teams tend to be more on-the-mark than other sources.

Top Gun wrote:More on-topic, it's a sad statement when Cracked has just about the most sensible take on the issue out there.

That's a pretty sensible take.

Ferno wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:But weren't all clans/tribes/races around the globe like that in the early stages? What keeps some from progressing. They aren't inherently savage, the middle east is full of an enlightened people...the cradle of civilization giving birth to philosophy etc.... yet they cling to some seriously primitive traditions.

a huge problem facing a lot of muslims these days is the desire to be progressive and to welcome the new ideas the world has brought about, but they're also torn by the urge to keep their traditions alive.

Like Honor Killings?

Top Gun wrote:More on-topic, it's a sad statement when Cracked has just about the most sensible take on the issue out there.

Yeah, that is quite remarkable. But then, next week it will be an article on the top 10 reasons Alqueda should start using zombies to do their suicide missions...
Oh, never mind, they already do!

I find the Cracked piece no less slanted than Newt Gingrich's talking points. For example Cracked says:

“From Sarah Palin’s Twitter Feed:
We all know that they have the right to do it, but should they?”

And from Harry Reid’s spokesperson:

While respecting that Muslims have a First Amendment right to religious freedom, Reid “thinks this mosque should be built some place else,” his spokesman Jim Manley said Monday.

Let me make something clear. In order to make these statements you must hate two things: logic and America. There is NO way to say that an individual has a protected right to do something and simultaneously criticize your government for not suppressing the execution of that right. There is no way for President Obama or any other president to put a stumbling block in the way of the free exercise of religion without violating the sanctity of that freedom. Should I say it more simply? OK.

No where does Reid of Palin suggest the government should stop them. Yet Cracked makes it's case against that assertion.

Pretty lame.

The insulting and harmful thing the center's developers are doing is two fold.

1) They are telling us they want to push back against the radicals by building this center but actually it will be the radicals who will fund it!

Somehow I'm thinking the radicals won't be feeling the revolt pushing back from a guy that comes to them with hat in hand and begs for money to build an Islamic center with Mosque at ground zero.
And yes, in spite of claims to the contrary, a building that was hit in the attack by parts of the weapon used in the attack (the plane) is part of ground zero. It has been stated by the developers that the fact that this building was hit on Sept. 11th is the reason they chose it! So you may not think it is part of Ground Zero but the Muslims in charge of this operation sure as hell do! If they have their way the Islamic terrorists will have built a monument at the site before the citizens of the U.S. have....

2) The radicals will revel in the fact that they have a Mosque on that site.

I know they have the right and will build it.
I don't resent that nearly as much as the weakness that compels my fellow citizens to ignore the reality and try to convince me I'm somehow hating America or Islam for seeing what is wrong with it.

If the Neo Nazi's want to build a center next to the Holocaust Museum we we would let them but everyone would know what it is and realize we let it happen in spite of the nature of the people who put it there. We wouldn't pat ourselves on the back and say we are helping to bridge the gap between the Nazi's and the rest of the world. We wouldn't tell people who mention they wish the Nazi's wouldn't build their center next to the Holocaust Museum that they hate America and are bigots!!

You can be all proud of the Islamic Center built at Ground Zero with Iranian and Wahhabi blood money if you want but don't ask me to contribute to the celebration of your mindless political correctness.

Will Robinson wrote:If the Neo Nazi's want to build a center next to the Holocaust Museum we we would let them but everyone would know what it is and realize we let it happen in spite of the nature of the people who put it there. We wouldn't pat ourselves on the back and say we are helping to bridge the gap between the Nazi's and the rest of the world. We wouldn't tell people who mention they wish the Nazi's wouldn't build their center next to the Holocaust Museum that they hate America and are bigots!!

I don't disagree with this. Although I think the analogy is somewhat flawed. With the exception of the funding question, the mosque being built is not directly evil. Nazi's are. A better analogy would be someone putting up a Baptist church next to some memorial to victims of the crusades in Palestine.

I have no objection to people saying that they wish the mosque wasn't being built there. I DO have objections to the people saying they should be stopped. The ones who are actively TRYING to find legal reasons to stop it. And they ARE doing that.

Also, I'd like to point out that I think the "legal but not wise" statement that Obama made is a double edged sword. Building a large Islamic center that close to the world trade center site is, of course, legal, but probably was NOT a wise choice.

On the other side of the sword. PROTESTING the Islamic center is, of course, legal, but probably not wise. All the protests are doing is drawing attention to the mosque. And exactly the wrong TYPE of attention. If you don't want to give the radicals a victory, then don't give them a fight that they have a low chance of loosing. When the mosque is finally built, the radicals will now feel like "Ha! Those Christians wanted to stop us, but We won!".

If no one had wasted time protesting, then all they could have said was, "Hey, look, we built a mosque, see?" To which the response would have been, "SO? It's America, you can build a mosque wherever you want. What do we care?"

Kilarin wrote:...
I don't disagree with this. Although I think the analogy is somewhat flawed. With the exception of the funding question, the mosque being built is not directly evil...

And with the exception of sending out a constant stream of suicide bombers Hamas is just a civic organization...

I don't think for the sake of this discussion you can remove the funding aspect of it. In fact if you could show me that the funding came from truely moderate Muslims and Jews and Christians etc. I'd buy into the whole premise that it is a blow against the radicals but if it isn't then lets at least not pretend it is simply because it would make a great Isn't America grand? story. And to stand up and cheer for the guy who is trying to perpetrate that fraud upon is is idiotic!

As far as trying to get the government to stop it I agree, that is against everything we fight for and I don't advocate for that cause. We should speak out against that faction as well and I do.

Kilarin wrote:If no one had wasted time protesting, then all they could have said was, "Hey, look, we built a mosque, see?" To which the response would have been, "SO? It's America, you can build a mosque wherever you want. What do we care?"

Or even better:

"It's America. We are glad to have provided your radicals with the opportunity to build a mosque there, to share your views, and to compete in the marketplace of public opinion -- where your radical ideas will lose. We are better than you, and this is one of the ways we show it."

Lothar wrote:

Kilarin wrote:If no one had wasted time protesting, then all they could have said was, "Hey, look, we built a mosque, see?" To which the response would have been, "SO? It's America, you can build a mosque wherever you want. What do we care?"

Or even better:

"It's America. We are glad to have provided your radicals with the opportunity to build a mosque there, to share your views, and to compete in the marketplace of public opinion -- where your radical ideas will lose. We are better than you, and this is one of the ways we show it."

I think that logic could prove successful on people who have a similar perspective as yourself, similar values and all that, regarding human rights, all men being created equal, turn the other cheek, non-secular society, etc. etc.

Unfortunately, in this case, you would be hoping to have the same successful effect on people who scoff at the foolishness of the infidel who would expect such a statement to be persuasive over the will of Allah. They wouldn't deep down see the wisdom of your gesture, they would more likely take offense that you try to sway them off the path to righteousness!

As they see it their 'ideas aren't losing'. They are gaining ground, figuratively and physically, they have recruited our morons to join them against us and they have done so from inside our borders.
So your premise that their attempt would be fruitless would seem like foolishness on your part to them, and it does to me as well.
I think their is room between the lines to distinguish when such a gesture you suggest is a net positive and when it is a net negative and when it is a net negative to refrain from joining in their charade is not an erosion of our fundamental freedom.

I bet you don't want planned parenthood passing out condoms in schools. It seems to send the message that authority condones promiscuity since the authority is providing the condom.
Well, the 'authority' of public opinion shouldn't be goaded into sanctioning the Islamofacsist's trojan mosque.
We are forced by our own standards of freedom and good government to allow it to be built. We are not compelled to call it something it isn't simply so they won't think we are bigots. the 'they' in this case already think we are sub-human so we aren't giving up anything by at least rejecting the cover story and being vocal about it!!
We do not have to accept the duplicitous nature in which they interact with outsiders.
If we can at least let them know that we are not stupid, that their ploy is not working and that they will be allowed to build, not because they succeeded in disguising their intent but because we won't cut off our nose to spite our face we still maintain the moral high ground without surrendering our cognizance.

I do wonder, if we already sanction the Iranians financially, freezing their assets, for their part in breaking international treaties do we have to let them spend freely to buy a mosque in America?

Will Robinson wrote:If the Neo Nazi's want to build a center next to the Holocaust Museum we we would let them but everyone would know what it is and realize we let it happen in spite of the nature of the people who put it there. We wouldn't pat ourselves on the back and say we are helping to bridge the gap between the Nazi's and the rest of the world. We wouldn't tell people who mention they wish the Nazi's wouldn't build their center next to the Holocaust Museum that they hate America and are bigots!!

Aaaaaaand you Godwinned. Guess the debate's over. Nice talking with you; maybe you'll have better luck next time.

Lol, the internet culture is soooo stupid.

Top Gun wrote:..
Aaaaaaand you Godwinned. Guess the debate's over. Nice talking with you; maybe you'll have better luck next time.

You want to explain what that means? I'm bound to regret asking but what the heck.

Topgun broke Godwin's law.

The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering genocide, propaganda, eugenics (racial superiority) or other mainstays of Nazi Germany, nor, more debatably, to discussion of other totalitarian regimes, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate.

Seeing how Islam is trying to use propaganda, and wants a totalitarian regime for the whole world. Like in most Muslim controlled countries. To use a Nazi comparison is justified.

It is considered poor form to raise such a comparison arbitrarily with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized corollary that any such ulterior-motive invocation of Godwin's law will be unsuccessful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law