Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 11:03 am
What about corndogs?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
There would be much, MUCH more erosion than is seen today. Any place with flowing water would look a lot like the grand canyon in depth. Erosion is slow, but in 4.6 billion years, it could wreak some serious havoc.
Not here.Is there a god?
Drakona,Drakona wrote:Hehe... brainwashed, huh? Aww, that's all right, no offense taken. Believe me, I've been called much worse in these sorts of debates! And I can see why you might think that. (For what it's worth, though, the vast majority of what I write is original to me. Nobody's feeding me ideas, I promise you. I study. And many of my subsequent opinions are completely foreign to the modern church!)
Ford Prefect wrote:Sryker:There would be much, MUCH more erosion than is seen today. Any place with flowing water would look a lot like the grand canyon in depth. Erosion is slow, but in 4.6 billion years, it could wreak some serious havoc.
Good grief man have you no concept of basic geology! I have personaly found the fossils of ocean dwelling animals (bivalves) at 6,000 feet of altitude. How did they get there? The earth has undergone enormous change in it's existence continents have been torn apart and crushed together. Mountain ranges are growing in hight every year! They are measurably higher and are measured every year by very sophticated insruments of incredible accuracy. Erosion fights against this upheaval.
Do yourself a favour and learn somthing. Read Drakona's link. Read somthing from someone without a religeous agenda.
Who am I kidding Gengis is probably right and your fingers are likely firmly in your ears right now.
Show me evidence. Show me facts. Show me reasoning. Show me ANYTHING. If you aren't going to present actual evidence so we can have a real debate, I might as well be talking to a box of rocks. Which, I have a feeling, might be the case anyways.Ghengis wrote:Stryker, despite your use of the term, you haven't "disproved" anything. What you've done is regurgitate creationist propaganda that appears to have merit to anyone with a merely surficial understanding of science.
Also, while I do believe that you aren't a typical 15-year old idiot, your arguments are those of a typical 15-year old idiot. Note that half the DBB got straight A's in school, took all the AP and honors classes, and score 95% or better in standardized tests. Just ask them. Also, everyone here has an IQ between 140 and 210, just ask them or refer to one of the many IQ threads.
I can't even begin to debate you because it's apparent that your understanding of even the most basic scientific concepts approaches nil. But please don't take my unwillingness to try to educate the uneducatable as a win for you. A serious reply addressing even one of your misconceptions would require so much background information that the entire undertaking is too burdensome to contemplate. And anyway, anything I had to say would just cause you to stick your fingers in your ears.
I'm aware that this is essentially a flame, and that you requested not to be flamed. However, I can't apologize because you were trolling for it. Good day.
- G
I don't suppose it would help much if I said that it isn't a Walt Disney kind of world, but rather a Tolkein kind of world? It isn't sugar, spice, and everything nice, with a few clearly evil, easily defeated villians... but rather a grand drama full of deep evil, sorrow, suffering, heroes, compassion, and glory. It isn't cartoony sugary good, it's rich life and its attached profound goodness. Would it help if I said that?bet51987 wrote:To me, If there was a god, it would be a Walt Disney kind of world where familys live happily ever after.
I have more experience with it than you might guess. As a teen/young adult I was into Christian religion big time - more than most - and became disillusioned when I discovered both that 1) most of my peers in the church weren't devoted to it, and 2) in the end I couldn't stay devoted to it myself. But for a while I was definitely in the space you're in now.Drakona wrote:It is often the case that when someone has no experience with something, they think it's simple and easy to explain. Creationists often think evolution is simple--a theory that can be fully taught in ten minutes. Atheists often think the Bible is simple--something you can read cover to cover in a week, and understand as much as there is to know. Math is full of theorems that seem utterly simple until you try to prove them. And people who put prayer down to psychology always strike me that way--as explaining in simple terms something they have no real experience with.
You obviously either did not read my post to you, or you simply could not understand it, or you simply refused to understand it.bet51987 wrote: Why can't religious instructors answer my questions. Too many questions...no GOOD answers.
Like any good father, God has allowed his children to make their own decisions, even if those decisions are against his advice.
Shoku....Thanks for the reply, but to me God is not a good father at all. You can talk to him, but he will never answer back. I see kids smoking, swearing, doing drugs, some having sex already. They are popular and I envied them a little, maybe more than a just a little. Some even teased me for not trying things. but, I know this, I was always afraid of what my father would do to me if I ever got caught. Not physically, cause he's never hit me, ever. But he would have taken away my freedom and put me in reform school or something. There is no way he would have let me do any of those things. That's the difference.It was Mankind who rejected God, not God who rejected us. We are the living result of that bad decision. Any attention given to us by God is indeed an undeserved kindness.
No......Duper wrote:You say you don't believe in God, but I see you pointing quite an angry finger at him. Which is it Bettina? do you REALLY believe in him or Not?
Let me see, pain, suffering, death, destruction, rape, murder, childrens hospitals, etc etc etc..All of this he COULD stop in a heartbeat...but he won't because of some rule that got broken....and I'm getting blamed for it. That's why I hate him and don't want to be on his side......Duper wrote:But why are you so mad at God?
Duper has a good point Bettina. You cannot be angry at somthing that you believe does not exist.You say you don't believe in God, but I see you pointing quite an angry finger at him. Which is it Bettina? do you REALLY believe in him or Not?
I don't believe in god. All I was trying to say was why I don't, and what my reaction would be if I was proven wrong and their was a god given what I see in the world today.Duper has a good point Bettina. You cannot be angry at somthing that you believe does not exist.
. . .
A VERY important thing to notice here is the assumption underlying this issue--that nothing can happen to us that is not perfectly correlated (somehow, whatever 'correlated' means!!!) with what we have done in life (or 'are') up to that point. This is dubious (at best) and cruel at worst. We have mild analogues from causality and small-scope personal actions, but to extend those to all of life requires a metaphysical leap that renders theistic claims modest by comparison(!). This position would, of course, produce some rather bizarre expectations if it held. Just think about some of these:
* Almost no one could win the $3 million dollar state lottery.
* EVERY flip of a coin would have to go to the most 'virtuous' person(!)
* The good would NEVER die first (or young).
* hospitals would only be full of 'evil' people (and so why fund them, eh?)
* a twin that died one day earlier than another twin, would have to have been 'less good'.
* smashing your thumb with a hammer would be reserved for the more evil...(and accordingly, skill and talent would have been 'deserved')
* earthquakes only hit the evil cities, and ALL 'evil cities' MUST get earthquakes...
* all MINOR illnesses would be 'intelligent'--chickenpox would only infect the 'bad students' and not 'the good students' in a schoolroom (for example)...
* those doing 'evil' acts would never live long enough to 'change their ways' [and so most of us would have died in our adolescence-including ME! ]...
* forgiveness can NEVER occur--the evil would die before that.
The point should be obvious: to insist that we only get 'what we deserve'--immediately is to insist on absurdity and a situation no would could live with.
. . .
Here's the point that Duper is trying to make: you say you don't believe in God because if He existed He would end all pain. We're telling you that the assumption the God would end all pain if He existed is wrong. You can stay with your answer of you don't want him, but be aware that that's an emotional answer, not a logical one.bet51987 wrote:I don't believe in god. All I was trying to say was why I don't, and what my reaction would be if I was proven wrong and their was a god given what I see in the world today.Duper has a good point Bettina. You cannot be angry at somthing that you believe does not exist.
Like I said before, I lose either way.
He doesn't exist.......Im dead
He does exist......... I don't want him.
Bettina
I said that, and yes, there if the sn slowed down it's srinking in times past, it woldn't have outputed nearly as much energy, freezing the earth entirely solid.Drakona wrote: The other thing to watch out for is the assumption that processes have been constant. There was a guy on the DBB about a year ago I think that made an argument about the size of the sun. He quoted an article that said the sun's radius had decreased in size by 0.5% in the last 400 years (or something like that), and concluded that if the old earth view was correct, the sun must have originally been the size of the whole solar system! Stop and think about this for a moment though. Is there any reason to suppose that the sun's radius has to change at a constant rate through all of history? Maybe it grows and shrinks. Or maybe it's the volume that changes, not the radius. Or maybe it grows logarithmically, or exponentially, or some other way than at a constant rate. There are lots of possibilities. Whenever someone wants to use something constant to date by, ask yourself--is there a good reason why that thing should have remained constant through the years?
I fail to see how this helps evolution. All animals have cells reproducing asexually inside their own bodies. That's how they stay alive and grow. Also, no known "animals" produce babies asexually. An animal is defined as "A multicellular organism of the kingdom Animalia, differing from plants in certain typical characteristics such as capacity for locomotion, nonphotosynthetic metabolism, pronounced response to stimuli, restricted growth, and fixed bodily structure." Single-celled or extremely simple organisms are the only things that can asexually reproduce. Where then did sexual reproduction come from? Asexual reproduction provides a much more certain way of propagating a particular organism, since the organism doesn't have to find a mate. Therefore, according to the laws of natural selection, asexually reproducing organisms should be the only ones alive today, since they can reproduce without needing another organism of the same type, and thus have a competitive advantage over other organisms. So much for the battle of the sexes.WarAdvocat wrote:One good fact for evolution: Sexual reproduction strategies persist in animals that can reproduce asexually.
Ghengis wrote: I can't even begin to debate you because it's apparent that your understanding of even the most basic scientific concepts approaches nil.
You say I don't understand science or scientific concepts--and then say it would take up too much work to dig up the "science" and "scientific concepts" that you're referring to. If that's science, then no one on earth is a scientist.Ghengis wrote: A serious reply addressing even one of your misconceptions would require so much background information that the entire undertaking is too burdensome to contemplate.
I'm a geologist, I don't need to look up the stuff you post that I find the most perposterous. Just out of curiosity, what do you want to be when you grow up?Stryker wrote:You guys say it is impossible to educate me because I am uneducatable. I think you just don't want to because you'd actually have to look something up
My second statement said that a reply would require excessive backgroud information. This clearly refers to the content of the reply; I don't want to type for an hour. You added the words "dig up" in an attempt to spin my statement. As I mentioned above, I don't need to look this stuff up. I actually understand it.Stryker wrote:Also, am I the only one that noticed that Ghengis's post clearly contradicted itself?
You say I don't understand science or scientific concepts--and then say it would take up too much work to dig up the "science" and "scientific concepts" that you're referring to. If that's science, then no one on earth is a scientist.
If I'm so unschooled in all facets of scientific evidence, why does it take so much effort to refute "even one of my misconceptions?"
Just for the record, yes. We call them "Seals" or "Sea Lions". FishDogCats?Stryker wrote:Let's put it this way war. In all your human experience, have you EVER seen ANYTHING even REMOTELY approaching a fishdog?
HHAAAAAAAAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!!! That's a good one. ROFLOL!!!WarAdvocat wrote:Basically, they use scientific-sounding language to make it seem like what they are doing is science. The problem with this is that the masses are easily impressed by the scientific-sounding tone that is presented by the ID people, and all of a sudden it seems like there is a debate going on...when there isn't. There's SPIN DOCTORING and PROPAGANDA, but the only debate going on is in the minds of creationists. Oh, there's a few pretentiously serious publications, but as Drakona mentioned earlier, it's hard to take them seriously when their assumptions are so fundamentally flawed.
<scoff> You got what you asked for and now you're trying to weasel out of it eh?? Phylogenically, seals are more FishBEARS, but the point is still valid.Stryker wrote:Let's put it this way war. In all your human experience, have you EVER seen ANYTHING even REMOTELY approaching a fishdog?
Actually, you should have QUALIFIED: "The smallest protein I care to discuss because it makes me sound right " And let's not discuss catalyzing conditions in the primordial soup. Let's just isolate the one factor that you want to discuss.Stryker wrote:I guess I should have clarified: the smallest protein usable by a cell.
No, not to today's organisms. I betcha primitive organisms had a use for them until they found better proteins to use Remember, we're talking about evolution here. The primary assumption is that life started simple and EVOLVED.Stryker wrote:BTW, there are also:
pentapeptides
decapeptides
and just about every other latin number word + peptide combined into a word.
None of them constitute viable, useful proteins.