DescentBB

AlexanderBorisov wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:03 pm

Xfing wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:17 am Theming particular areas of the level is a good idea for sure, I'll definitely take that into consideration. I also do fully realize that sometimes it reinforces the theme to use just one kind of robot from among two or three types that have identical functions. I gave an example of using small hulks in a Puuma Sphere level, rather than supplementing them with PIGs and such.

There are some robots I'd like to be mainstays though, namely the Class 1 Driller. That robot makes any Descent player feel right at home

An interesting note, those Drillers seem less frightening in D2 for some reason... Not sure why, maybe difference in AI, they seemed to be more aggressive in D1, same goes for class 1 drones, small hulks and secondary lifters. However it would be cool if you could somehow re-create experience of, say, Level 9 of D1 with it's large interconnected area and deadly ambushes by roaming class 1 drones and other "weak" robots.

I think it's a matter of the AI setting. "Station" is more aggressive than "Normal", because the latter takes time to load an optimal routine and go with it. Station starts roaming the moment it hears you, Normal does so after a while.

Xfing wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:38 am Not sure if level 7 particularly is a good idea for this sort of aesthetic though, since it's Saturn.
Also, I'm holding off on gophers until later as they're pretty sturdy

good points,, how about 12 for gophers instead?
(although what is an "alcane" mine anyway?)

It's a mine where you mine alcanes. Made a mistake though, it should be spelled "alkane", apparently. Oh well, fixing

Gophers are fine for level 12 I guess. I'm presuming you mean bomb dropping ones. I'd rather not have laser-shooting ones in the mission at all, since that's just one more robot with a redundant function to like three others in D1 alone.

Xfing wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:17 am spelled "alkane"
I'm presuming you mean bomb dropping ones.

Ah ok! wasn't sure if that was meant or if it was something else i was missing. And of course, I don't remember any laser firing gophers in d1, so there shall be none here!

Phozon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:47 am ...And of course, I don't remember any laser firing gophers in d1, so there shall be none here!

The Parallax team probably also thought they were redundant in the laser department, and changed their role...

On the other hand, I'll be kicking off with the construction of the Chapter 1 secret level, "Kuiper Belt Espionage Facility". I've got the preliminary layout on paper as of now.
To keep the level in the Descent 1 style, I will not use the teleporters, and stick to normal entrance & exit doors. However, if we somehow prefer teleporters in that level, I can arrange for that as well. The players will also hunt for all 3 keys in order.

Shroudeye wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:52 am

Phozon wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:47 am ...And of course, I don't remember any laser firing gophers in d1, so there shall be none here!

The Parallax team probably also thought they were redundant in the laser department, and changed their role...

On the other hand, I'll be kicking off with the construction of the Chapter 1 secret level, "Kuiper Belt Espionage Facility". I've got the preliminary layout on paper as of now.
To keep the level in the Descent 1 style, I will not use the teleporters, and stick to normal entrance & exit doors. However, if we somehow prefer teleporters in that level, I can arrange for that as well. The players will also hunt for all 3 keys in order.

Yeah well, I got confirmation that D1-style "bonus levels" will be feasible in a future build of Rebirth, so you could make one like that. The mission would then stop being vanilla compatible, though. But I don't really mind I guess, being able to have proper secret levels is a small price to pay for that

Still, I'd feel safer if it was just a mini-level with a teleport, goodies and little resistance. A D1-style secret level I'd have to put on the back-burner, since we need 6 of that type of secret level anyway. You can keep the title though, it fits the D1 kind of secret level much better anyway.

Xfing wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:24 pm ...Still, I'd feel safer if it was just a mini-level with a teleport, goodies and little resistance. A D1-style secret level I'd have to put on the back-burner, since we need 6 of that type of secret level anyway. You can keep the title though, it fits the D1 kind of secret level much better anyway.

Okay then, I'll design a smaller level with low resistance, just like in Descent 2 variants, except it is themed around Descent 1 with teleporters added in. I'll keep you guys posted.

Hmm... X did you ever see how Descent Maximum did their secret maps? (3 and 4 are, I think, the particular ones I'm thinking of.) If you don't want to go whole hog on D1 secret levels yet designing one in a similar way to that could be a decent compromise.

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:16 pm Hmm... X did you ever see how Descent Maximum did their secret maps? (3 and 4 are, I think, the particular ones I'm thinking of.) If you don't want to go whole hog on D1 secret levels yet designing one in a similar way to that could be a decent compromise.

Nope, not familiar with those. I'll need to make up for it.

Right now I'm thinking 6 "cache" secret levels, as originally intended - and 3 "bonus" secret levels accessed through secret exits. If having both in the mission with transitions working properly is even going to work, I have no idea honestly.

Xfing wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:25 amWell, that's assuming Kp is Diedel. He changes his name quite regularly, mind you

Most probably not. Diedel is not a Rebirth fan and I wouldn't expect him to work on it.

Sirius wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:37 pm

Xfing wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:25 amWell, that's assuming Kp is Diedel. He changes his name quite regularly, mind you

Most probably not. Diedel is not a Rebirth fan and I wouldn't expect him to work on it.

Yeah, I figured it all out already, mixed up the dudes and the projects

BTW, having rotating D2 robots is now implemented as an experimental feature into the newest builds of Rebirth. Quoting from Kp:

"This is now implemented as an experimental extension. Invoke it with $:Rebirth.rotate.robot N, where N is the robot ID you want to show. You can optionally hide this from legacy clients by writing $:$F:Rebirth.rotate.robot. For compatibility with those clients, that form toggles the cursor to hidden, as the legacy client would. Use a second $F on an adjacent line to reverse that effect."

So there will be no conflict with vanilla or older source ports, they just won't display the model in the briefing. Better that than a crash or a hangup I'm sure

Hey that's pretty cool.

Shapin up! - Pretty much done on the no key areas (before blue door)





(i've gone for "oily", and "pipeline" themes) : )

As for secret levels, according to Kp:
"Currently, there's no support for explicitly requesting D1-style secret levels in D2, so there's no conflict. The straightforward approach that I had planned was to have a campaign-level switch, which would mean that you can't have both types in one campaign. However, I expect that even without the proposed code change, you could mostly fake a secret exit by placing it behind a reactor-triggered door. If I recall correctly, using a secret level teleporter during the reactor countdown works much like using a D1-style secret exit. Currently, D2-style secret teleporters are hard disabled in multiplayer, so this workaround would only be viable for single player."

So yeah, let's just keep it simple and stick to teleporter-accessed D2-style secret levels rather than try to mix it up. That way we'll keep vanilla compatibility, among other things. While being able to have D1-style secret levels is quite tempting, we'd have to choose between one type and the other, exclusively. We are going to have more than enough regular levels anyway, so I think having some of those little puzzle caches similar to D2's own would be the best course to take.

On the bright sidem when we get to making the briefings, we might already have D1 exit sequence functionality. Kp says it's not high on the priority list since it's aesthetic, but it's not like we're about to wrap up here soon either

BTW Phozon: love the look and the lighting! We're certainly short on dark mines - which is a shame, as their ambience is something great to have! You're a fast worker btw, I'm really amazed :O

Nice one, Phozon! Spoooooky!

Okay, I've got a few questions before I get my hands deep and dirty into building:

First, I'd like to ask if "forcefields" are also out of question for Descent 1 zone, at least for secret levels. If I were to use doors, the players can keep them open using markers, but they cannot do it for forcefields. I'd trigger the forcefields with motion triggers, and can create an "one way" puzzle. I can also use doors only, letting the players use the markers if they want. The tradeoff for the player is basically the time it takes to set it up. Also, if I use a lot of doors, the players won't be able to keep all of them open.

Note that I'd rather refrain from using "ignore marker" flag in DLE, unless we flag ALL doors with it: the reason is having some doors ignore markers and some not would probably feel weird while playing. EDIT: It DOESN'T work anyway.

Second, are we allowed to use blinking lights in Descent 1 levels? (Also, they seem to crash my game for some reason, anyone can help?)

Thanks!

Βlinking lights are an aesthetic thing, so of course they're safe to use.

Actually, since these are secret levels and rely on puzzles - switches, closing/opening walls and force fields are okay. D2's gameplay advances were amazing and I do appreciate them, in fact playing D2 more recently, I start finding D1 primitive in that regard. Anyway, since these are teleporter secret levels, there's not much reason not to go all the way, since they're something that wasn't in D1 anyway. Just make sure to keep strictly to D1 textures otherwise, and allow the D1 puzzle style shine more, i.e. doors that open only once, doors opening from location triggers etc. As for markers - I personally consider them a cheat. Of course someone can use them if they want, but level design should never explicitly make the player rely on them for any hope of completing the puzzles. They are supposed to help, not enable.

Okay. So for Descent 1 portion, I'll only go as far as switches and forcefields (they look less "alien" than materializing/dematerializing "solid" walls). This should make things interesting .

I'd love to use blinking lights, but right now it just freezes my game... I think I did it in the past, maybe I'll look into my levels that work.

I also consider markers as a bit of cheating (which I use very often!!! ), so that was why I asked. Thanks for clearing it up!

As far as I know, the mine doesn't have to be set to "Vertigo" in order to allow for blinking lights, as that's a mechanic that's been there in D2 since day one. Download the newest versions of DLE and Rebirth and see if that helps with the crashes.

Well, since my normal Descent 2 level was working properly with blinking lights, I think something else is involved. Maybe I just forgot to add something???

Anyways, that is a problem for later.

Short on dark mines? What about all of mine?

It looks brilliant, phozon.

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:06 pm Short on dark mines? What about all of mine?

It looks brilliant, phozon.

That's still not a lot, is it?

Also, we don't have something quite as dark as the first secret level from D1 to my knowledge

My D1 level is set to be darker. It's probably 75% complete, but I haven't touched it in a few weeks. I'll get to it soon.

Ok, done.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tcSThY ... sp=sharing

I recently discovered that DLE tends to show mines as darker than they actually are, so with that in mind I should be able to properly light levels in the future.
I also overcorrected the difficulty, so that shouldn't be a problem

I still stand by every single matcen segment, however in hindsight the contents could have been weaker. Drones shouldn't be too threatening though

LightWolf wrote: ↑Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:42 pm Ok, done.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tcSThY ... sp=sharing

I recently discovered that DLE tends to show mines as darker than they actually are, so with that in mind I should be able to properly light levels in the future.
I also overcorrected the difficulty, so that shouldn't be a problem

I still stand by every single matcen segment, however in hindsight the contents could have been weaker. Drones shouldn't be too threatening though

Two matcens in the middle hallway area are fine, provided the contents are weak enough, agreed. But EIGHT matcens in each of the tubular areas? That's bull★■◆● even with Class 1 Drones. I think even two matcens on each end would be pushing it, though I'd be inclined to accept such a solution given the intended difficulty of the level. Three matcens on each side would probably be best, 1 on one end, 2 on the other - keep in mind they are not going to contain class 1 drones in the finished misison.

Ok, added Zandura 2 to Dropbox, Level 37.

I had to make some tweaks of my own though (obviously):
- reduced the number of matcens in the tubular areas
- removed the additional cube with the switch that unlocks the two grates leading out of the reactor chamber - it was pointless since blowing up the reactor opens these grates anyway, and that door only opened once the reactor was blown as well (because screw logic)
- removed the switch in the exit tunnel - there's no way in the world anyone would ever have enough time to make it to the secret it opens. Moved the switch opening wall 331, 1 to a hidden nearby location
- fixed some weird texture choices/inconsistencies
- Made the wall 3, 2 open once the reactor's been blown - this clearly was intended but forgotten
- expanded the reactor area, added a grated wall encasing the reactor and a switch to expose it

Definitely more changes to come in the future, but the level's at the very least serviceable now

A lot of these things I had to correct simply defy reason though, and the only reasons I can think of for anyone putting them in a level are gross ineptitude or spite

I added the unlock door switch as a failsafe since I discovered that if you destroy the reactor with both doors open you're stuck in. The grate should help with that though.

And I did test all post-exit things on insane (albeit with cheats to deal with the matcens - I cannot do insane for the life of me without them anyway ), so I know they are possible. Sure your screen may be starting to turn white on your way out, but at least you can make it.

Xfing wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:58 am[The grated] door only opened once the reactor was blown as well (because screw logic)

That was my reference to the original reactor grate trap.

Hello guys, here is my status update:

So far, I've done the preliminary design on the paper, and a few blocks in DLE. Recently I've started constructing major parts of the level.

I also managed to find the cause of the blinking light's problem: It was simply because of the blink period has been automatically set to 1000 (Slowest), which apparently confused the game engine (It also happens when it was set to 0). I didn't noticed it the first time (And "bonus" points, I used them in my Descent 2 level... Hmpf.).

Now, I want to ask a question: I'm thinking of adding a few doors that require keys, which I expect the player to collect in the main level. The doors may lead to some powerups, or even the level reactor. What do you think of this?

LightWolf wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:32 am I added the unlock door switch as a failsafe since I discovered that if you destroy the reactor with both doors open you're stuck in. The grate should help with that though.

Yeah, the thing is they cannot both be open! For that matter, neither of them can be open, since they're locked from the inside. I can think of no situation where both are open just when the reactor blows. One? Sure - if you opt for sitting in the door and using guideds to attack the reactor. Even still, there's the other grate that'll open once the reactor's gone - also from that side the grates seem to lack the "auto" property, so they'll never close. Ergo, there's absolutely no need for that secret switch.

And I did test all post-exit things on insane (albeit with cheats to deal with the matcens - I cannot do insane for the life of me without them anyway ), so I know they are possible. Sure your screen may be starting to turn white on your way out, but at least you can make it.

Wonder how you did it - getting to the exit itself wihout the afterburner leaves me like 11 seconds of time. You'd have to take aim at the switch (with the mine shaking), go back up the shortcut tunnel and all the way to the other branch, get the secret and get all the way back. Nope, I'd much rather leave the metal bars in place and just open the wall compartment with a switch in the secret cube in the ceiling. Much less hassle that way. Oh, and don't let me forget the most important thing - first the player would have to KNOW what secrets are opened by that switch. Since they're not in the immediate vicinity, they'd have to go search, but there is no time to do that in the level. Overall a poor design decision by all possible criteria.

Shroudeye wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:11 pm Now, I want to ask a question: I'm thinking of adding a few doors that require keys, which I expect the player to collect in the main level. The doors may lead to some powerups, or even the level reactor. What do you think of this?

I'd rather that there weren't any colored doors in the level, to keep with the original design restrictions. You can generally implement the same sort of functionality by just using switches if that's OK with you

It is okay with me, no problem. I'll keep you guys posted.

So... with the Z2 changes essentially complete, will you acknowledge Metarock now?

LightWolf wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:32 pm So... with the Z2 changes essentially complete, will you acknowledge Metarock now?

I checked that levetl some time ago already. It's alright, but nothing special IMO. Feel free to use it for some of your projects. Not a bad level, but we need top notch quality at the moment. Of course I'm open to being convinced by someone else, but I don't think say, Naptha or Fox are going to be more than lukewarm toward this level as well

Would you acknowledge Proteus Cyanide Mine?
An ice-themed level. IMO it has a good D1 feel. Has robots, but (being an earlier level) I restrained myself on the difficulty scale.

LightWolf wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:32 pm Would you acknowledge Proteus Cyanide Mine?
An ice-themed level. IMO it has a good D1 feel. Has robots, but (being an earlier level) I restrained myself on the difficulty scale.

Oh come on, the difficulty is totally high! Give you a hint - play through your own levels on Insane to see if the difficulty is ok. Not doing that is much like a cook not sampling the dish he's cooking all the time, and then acting surprised that something went wrong.

As for the level - well, I gotta say it's one of these levels that impressed me to some degree, but it's just that - memorable moments. The entrance area looks very cool and unique, as does the area where you get the red key. Its size is also its strong point, since like Alter-Fox noticed, we'd like something sprawling for Neptune. The level also has a very pleasing, dark atmosphere.

But there is a strong over-reliance on standard width corridors (even for D1), lots of laziness-masking symmetry and the texturing is way too monotonous with the single blue texture. I know it's not for the entire level and there are sections that mix it up, but still - there are plenty of places where you could have used dark blue instead for example. Also that curved, high tunnel ending with a twisted pit - super bland and amateurish. The level has potential, but would require huge amounts of work to make it fit our standards. How did you manage to make it so fast, anyway? I really have no idea how you manage to create a level from scratch this fast, and yet take so long to apply minor suggestions to a previously submitted level. Are you going passive-aggressive on us or something

I'd like to hear what others think both about this level and Metamorphic Rock Excavation - your opinions will be worth hearing out. Everyone feel free to chime in!

Oh, and do me a favor LW and stop jumping at us out of nowhere with your levels and request slots like everyone else does, ok? I shouldn't even be humoring your submissions for the fact alone that you're not doing that. Why waste your energy making the mines in that case? To be fair though, at the moment we're good and I'd much rather have someone else shine than let you hog all the good spots for yourself

IIRC Alter has done more than me
Besides, I haven't had much luck claiming in the past. Plus the thing you said about letting other (and sometimes better) authors make some levels.

Did you know that Proteus was going to be Enceladus until Phozon initially wanted it?

LightWolf wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:32 pm Proteus Cyanide Mine..

Xfing wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:06 pm I'd like to hear what others think both about this level..

1) i didn't know about trying to take someone elses interested slot,
2) we decided to move to 12 anyway. Also i didn't have a specific one in mind i just picked one, whatever.
and THREE) : )
As a self contained level, overall it seems good to play through. It feels like a map that was made too quickly though. Different areas in the map vary wildly; either really nicely shaped rooms, good at using all 3 dimensions; or blocky awkward tunnels with too tight turns and tiny useless alcove sized branch-offs, making the level larger than it needs to be and annoyingly sprawl-y. Inconsistencies, like doors being bordered by different secondary textures (eg lights somewhere, grey strip somewhere else) or doors not being bordered on one side at all, or being flat walled, make the level feel pieced together. Other texturing is nice; just sticking to floor,walls,ceiling is simple yet effective and while there's not effort put into alignment in a lot of the place, original descent levels do that too (although mostly because of limiting level editor) and it's fine because if the level is laid out well enough to be played through with enemies etc. you don't notice these things.
While I can't seriously give the advice to plan the whole level out in advance (because i totally make mine up as a i go along), you should stick with a theme and make sure the level would generally direct a hypothetical player -who is just mindlessly going with the flow- towards completing it.
So seriously, I actually quite like your couple of levels i've happened to look at. With the speed you seem to make them appear, do you?/you should have your own massive level pack of these type of things if you wanna just keep churning these perfectly playable, kind of rough and ready maps.

I have a larger set in the works. I considered using the level in that mission, however none of the locations I picked fit the theme of that level save one which is already complete.

And you didn't pick my spot since I technically hadn't said anything yet.

Totally. Most of the levels you've made that haven't made it through our quality control are decent at least, I'd say they're almost D1 quality, and that's not something any designer can do. You totally should release them as a pack or something :O

LightWolf wrote: ↑Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:33 pm IIRC Alter has done more than me

Yeah, because he's a seasoned and skilled veteran designer with top quality spatial design skills and doesn't hurry his levels or take shortcuts. Just be proud that you have this many levels in as it is

Besides, I haven't had much luck claiming in the past. Plus the thing you said about letting other (and sometimes better) authors make some levels.

If you haven't had much luck claiming, then take a hint instead of spamming your levels anyway. I know this strategy is quite effective (in applying for a job for example), but believe me it's annoying.

Did you know that Proteus was going to be Enceladus until Phozon initially wanted it?

Doesn't make much of a difference really. One more level by you means one less level by Shroudeye, Naphtha, Fox or Phozon. Or Kaizerwolf. Since you have download access, why don't you examine some of their levels? That might be both inspiring and educational.

Speaking of not hurrying or taking shortcuts, Charon is finally... nearing... completion. And since I wasn't secretly pining to build an overload level this time, it's not 900 cubes.

A little note about the homer bots -- the places where they are are where they should stay, and there shouldn't be any more added to the level. This is psychological warfare.
You can switch the type if you really want -- I thought Lou Guard fit in better with the texture scheme, and maybe he has a scarier face.

I changed the name slightly because I wanted to make a level that actually used the blues and greys and purples of pluto and not a "lab" level. I'll leave it up to you whether you think the original name still works after I put it up there. I've also got a secret exit in there, though I made a slight concession to D1 by putting it in a place that's only accessible after the reactor blows.

Cloudwolf - I've also been working on this project since X started it. It was pretty much just him and me at the beginning. You came in far later.

The Kuiper Belt Espionage Facility has also been dug out (The main layout is done). The cube amount is at 889 at this moment (JUST enough ). I'm placing the walls and triggers, plus doing some primary texturing. I plan to do the final texturing, lighting, etc. a little later, since I'm expecting a busy exam week ahead of me, including the weekends (I'm attending a course in Geographical Information Systems), so expect some delays until then.

The pictures at this moment are too mixed up, due to DLE's thick lines, so I'll have to post some later.

Currently, the level features a single teleporter acting as both entrance and exit. I also featured some forcefields, and a few switch puzzles; but the main attraction is a corridor run, full of powerups and suprises. I'll also lock the reactor behind a few doors that require switches to open - switches, that are scattered around the map (But you'll find them easily ).

I'm yet to play your levels, Lightwolf, so I got no comments at the moment.