DescentBB

So can't you just stuff level01.mid through level54.mid into the HOG and be done with it?

Now, this is indeed a work in progress in it's current state, but here's a DLE shot of what i have so far on Level 45, which i've decided to call Rakghou Moroni, in vein of some of the more "out there" names that Vertigo has, take Fold Zandura for an example. (which is actually a fairly decent band, i recommend that you should check them out when you have the chance.)

For themeing this level off of, i took some notes from the alien desert vibes that Baloris Prime has, and some notes from the honeycomb hell that's Level 11 from Descent 1.

Oh well, time to get off my lazy enby tail and continue working on Level 45.

Looks promising so far! Make sure to include some textures and decorations from D1 too, as per the design philosophy

AlexanderBorisov wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:45 am Did it myself to record ONP with the MIDI tracks I liked, duplicate names surely work - I selected 3 tracks I like most and assigned them to the levels via my own sng file the way I liked. Unfortunately you need an install/uninstall bat file to copy and restore the sng file, and the other missions music will not play correctly before you uninstalled it, it's a pity you cannot just put the sng file into the mission hog. Would be a very useful feature.

In Rebirth I believe you can but because of how differently Rebirth, XL and Dos work that might as well be going as far as making the initial mission Rebirth-only. Not a good move. All that really needs to be done is to rename the sng to descent.sng and plop it into the data directory if there is one, root directory if there's not, and that should be compatible with everything. Since that involves an if I don't know for sure how easily a bat can handle it, but just placing that instruction in the readme.txt should be enough for just about anyone.

Xfing wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:56 am So can't you just stuff level01.mid through level54.mid into the HOG and be done with it?

Nah, you need that SNG or you'll only get the first four. And unless those are named game01.hmp to game04.hmp you won't get nada. This is at least a case where getting the songs into hmp format won't be an issue since they already exist.
Looks great Sssylandrophyll... now that's quite a name. Keep it up!

Updated the demo with level 4. Still gonna do lots of fine-tuning on it, since it needs more supplies (for one thing), and changing up some Class 1 Drones to other mechs. It should be playable already though. It's pretty tough, but doable. Matcens have been introduced too, though they are one-shot, otherwise they'd be way too tough due to tricky trigger placement.

ΕDIT: Actually not all the triggers are one-shot, but those that aren't are actually more convenient that way, since you can farm them for energy and shields. Played it a few times more and it doesn't look so bad, though could use some more minor power-ups here and there, just to make the mine look less empty. I'll add some more decorations, but if someone feels like adding some stuff in themselves, be my guest. Also let me know what you think about level 4 in general. The former download link still works, so you better bookmark it

Oh, and I think the mission will be optimally run in Rebirth anyway. You definitely can port a sng file into the main HOG - there is custom music in stuff like Enemy Within etc, and it doesn't use any external files as far as I recall, and that's by far the tidiest solution. It doesn't work in vanilla though - it just plays the regular music.

But keep in mind that this mission relies on altered HAM and Sxx files, so making a whole new Rebirth folder for it would probably be optimal anyway, so going with an external descent.sng isn't such a bad idea. That'll keep the mission vanilla compatible. Another reason to play it with Rebirth though will be the briefings - vanilla D2 can't run D1-style briefings with rotating models, and only the most recent versions of Rebirth can.

AlexanderBorisov wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:45 amit's a pity you cannot just put the sng file into the mission hog. Would be a very useful feature.

Yeah, I think it was a mistake for the original game not to support that. It's not a huge amount of work and it's almost essential for custom soundtracks.

For D1.5 specifically, the best route is probably to put a .sng into the HOG file for Rebirth, and add an external copy of the same .sng for vanilla. If people want to use that, they probably know the drill by now.

Yeah, an internal SNG at the very least doesn't clash with vanilla, it just gets ignored by it.

Sylandrophol wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:45 pm

Now, this is indeed a work in progress in it's current state, but here's a DLE shot of what i have so far on Level 45, which i've decided to call Rakghou Moroni, in vein of some of the more "out there" names that Vertigo has, take Fold Zandura for an example. (which is actually a fairly decent band, i recommend that you should check them out when you have the chance.)

For themeing this level off of, i took some notes from the alien desert vibes that Baloris Prime has, and some notes from the honeycomb hell that's Level 11 from Descent 1.

Oh well, time to get off my lazy enby tail and continue working on Level 45.

I always liked the desert/sand themed textures in Descent 2. I might also have to build a level in this style! Yours is looking good so far!

Apart from the fact that they look like peach and caramel ice cream, I quite like these textures too They also do work pretty well with some textures from D1, which were sadly omitted in Baloris Prime, but actually used in that one Vertigo level that was desert-themed. It had honeycomb structure too, think it was level 11 or something

EDIT: Level 10 actually

Hey everyone,

I'm a longtime Descenter whose been following this project for awhile and would like to contribute. I used to dabble in level building and while my skills might be a little rusty, I think I know enough to be able to build something good. I'm particularly interested in the Brimspark boss level and Vertigo levels 50 and 51.

I saw that you were discussing music for the levels.
What about using some music from the PlayStation version because there are some decent ones on there.

Sadly those aren't MIDI format. Unless you're talking about the D1.5 add-on OST?

I'm going to go out on a limb and actually claim a level for once - specifically 39. At the moment I'm calling it Kryu'is Colony - but that is probably going to change.

Sirius wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:28 pm

AlexanderBorisov wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:45 amit's a pity you cannot just put the sng file into the mission hog. Would be a very useful feature.

Yeah, I think it was a mistake for the original game not to support that. It's not a huge amount of work and it's almost essential for custom soundtracks.

For D1.5 specifically, the best route is probably to put a .sng into the HOG file for Rebirth, and add an external copy of the same .sng for vanilla. If people want to use that, they probably know the drill by now.

I forget how this actually works -- if you can still have it named descent.sng that won't be a problem, but if it has to share the name of the hog it will seriously screw up the midi track order for XL players if they decide they don't wanna wait for me to finish the conversion -- I'm sure someone will figure out how to get the PIG running even if I don't... also would make it impossible for them to use the alternate OST if they want that instead. Words of caution.
This is another argument for using something like AFP's Rebirth installer so that we can make sure it will work right for everybody.

@TrueEpiicness Since we're gonna have two soundtracks much like D2 did, to please midi fans and CD fans... even though the second one is meant to be custom songs with the occasional lyrical track, I've been considering including a couple from the D1 and D2 CDs (mainly just considering the licensed tracks: "Haunted", "Ratzez", and "Rusty"... since they're not so specifically identified with one game or campaign) if I don't end up getting enough songs from the community album. If I end up needing even more than that I might include a few of the Brimble tracks that were most memorable to me ("Time for the Big Guns", "Not that Button", "A Big Problem" and "Overdrive" are the ones that spring to my mind).

Sylandrophol wrote: ↑Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:45 pm

Looking good so far, Sylandrophol. Don't hesitate to ask if you need help with something.
Have fun building the level!

LightWolf wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:58 pm Sadly those aren't MIDI format. Unless you're talking about the D1.5 add-on OST?

That one's gonna be all original, so no PS tracks are predicted to be involved in any way.

I'm going to go out on a limb and actually claim a level for once - specifically 39. At the moment I'm calling it Kryu'is Colony - but that is probably going to change.

I think we're good for now, as far as your contributions go. Especially since you're still shamelessly hogging boss levels for yourself. Oh, and you have stuff to work on with Coolyard, might I please have your eagerness shift to that for now?

Superbobby wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:22 pm Hey everyone,

I'm a longtime Descenter whose been following this project for awhile and would like to contribute. I used to dabble in level building and while my skills might be a little rusty, I think I know enough to be able to build something good. I'm particularly interested in the Brimspark boss level and Vertigo levels 50 and 51.

Welcome aboard! Aren't you getting a lil' greedy there right off the bat though? Glad you're so keen to contribute, but let's first see something from you. Pick one of the levels you said and make it, then we'll think about more. Make sure to follow the guidelines from the OP and use the provided resources. Good luck and have fun

Xfing wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:45 pm Pick one of the levels you said and make it, then we'll think about more. Make sure to follow the guidelines from the OP and use the provided resources. Good luck and have fun

Ok, the level I'm most interested in is the Brimspark boss level.

Superbobby wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:26 pm

Xfing wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:45 pm Pick one of the levels you said and make it, then we'll think about more. Make sure to follow the guidelines from the OP and use the provided resources. Good luck and have fun

Ok, the level I'm most interested in is the Brimspark boss level.

Go ahead then! Just be aware that boss levels generally require this special touch of quality, considering they're supposed to be among the most memorable ones. I'll be happy to see what you come up with

Just added "Coalition" to the dropbox... as you may have guessed the song is intended specifically for level 46. May add another one soon -- I've just got myself a new instrument (that's right, not a softsynth ) and I'm itching to write something for *this* project with it.
Did I ever mention the midi soundtrack for 46 is supposed to be D2 level 2? I don't think I did and that's kinda important.

Sure, thanks for sparing me the trouble of having to come up with levels to use the D2 midis with. I'll mark it on the list right away.

Also, I checked out level 1 with the hi-res textures, these look godawful next to the low res light gray door, which is made even worse by using groupa. I hope you did it out of necessity (because XL can't read Pumo's palette), otherwise I'm really starting to worry about your tastes

If you're playing it in xl the door will be high-res too. I didn't import textures into dle that were already in xl's main high-res set, cuz if I do that for every map the file size will be through the roof.

Working on Rakghou Moroni at the moment, i'd guesstimate that i'm around 25% done with the level, but that can change.

Have some DLE screencaps of what i have so far.

You like that "depth perception"? I always found it made it very difficult to see what I'm building.

I played the fourth level (not cold-start because I had very limited time), took me around 50 min do it without deaths on Insane.
This one really has the deadly surprise factor (especially the matcens, and Smelter 2 robots), but should be quite easy if you know the robot placement in advance, and how the matcens work. Maybe I will play it on cold-start later, but it seems there is enough Vulcan ammo and homing missiles to comfortably get through the level.
Overall impression that it is a nice fire level with good D1 style (resembling D1 L10 a bit), I really liked how robots matched the level textures, but geometry is a bit too cubistic to my taste, especially after playing a lot of Apocalyptic Factor with those awesome realistic caves.
Supervisor robot is a good idea (rarely used in D2) - it really turns the robots into snipe mode unlike D1! Robot placement is good, but probably you could make the level somewhat harder by strengthening the robots, but not sure if it is so necessary for level 4. What makes it easy, robots in this level are very predictable, every time they do same things, probably it is related to robot choice, AI settings, or the geometry itself.

That's how Phozon put the placeholder robots in, static mode practically always. I could probably throw in some more advanced lifters in free roam mode and a bit more random power-ups here and there. I'll definitely go ahead and do it when I get the chance, also gonna have that supervisor drop something nice, not sure what yet though. Maybe you could suggest something?

The geometry is rudimentary at times, but it's enough, and it feels very First Strike, so I'm happy with it.

Extra life or invuln is never a bad choice.

Sylandrophol wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:32 pm Working on Rakghou Moroni at the moment, i'd guesstimate that i'm around 25% done with the level, but that can change.

Have some DLE screencaps of what i have so far.

The coloring scheme looks a lot like Fold Zandura nad Lightwolf's sequel. Maybe if you could lose the green and come up with something else instead? Dunno, I'd just like to avoid two levels looking too similar to each other, even if it's the same theme.

Yeah, hm. Fold Zandura definitely was an inspiration for Rakghou Moroni, I did use the Baloris Prime sand-y textures when I was first making it, but i really didn't care for it.

I'll try and experiment around with different colors.

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:36 pm @TrueEpiicness Since we're gonna have two soundtracks much like D2 did, to please midi fans and CD fans... even though the second one is meant to be custom songs with the occasional lyrical track, I've been considering including a couple from the D1 and D2 CDs (mainly just considering the licensed tracks: "Haunted", "Ratzez", and "Rusty"... since they're not so specifically identified with one game or campaign) if I don't end up getting enough songs from the community album. If I end up needing even more than that I might include a few of the Brimble tracks that were most memorable to me ("Time for the Big Guns", "Not that Button", "A Big Problem" and "Overdrive" are the ones that spring to my mind).

Haunted sounds great in a darker level thats right after a boss level
its used for level 8 in d1 for the ps version and it goes really well with it IMO

Sylandrophol wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:02 pm Yeah, hm. Fold Zandura definitely was an inspiration for Rakghou Moroni, I did use the Baloris Prime sand-y textures when I was first making it, but i really didn't care for it.

I'll try and experiment around with different colors.

Alright, as i said, i experimented around with different colors, and i have to say, i'm really digging this Red/Orange/Gray theme i've settled on.




Any thoughts?

Yep, this is definitely quite unique, I like it

Try to mix in some D1 textures here and there too, kinda like Vertigo did.

Xfing wrote: ↑Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:40 pm That's how Phozon put the placeholder robots in, static mode practically always. I could probably throw in some more advanced lifters in free roam mode and a bit more random power-ups here and there. I'll definitely go ahead and do it when I get the chance, also gonna have that supervisor drop something nice, not sure what yet though. Maybe you could suggest something?

The geometry is rudimentary at times, but it's enough, and it feels very First Strike, so I'm happy with it.

I'd probably make more secondary lifters in free-roam mode instead. And even second room, you can corner-snipe practically everything (probably all robots are set to still), not too good. About the supervisor drop, surely not invuln or cloak (breaks balance of the level), instead I recommend a smart missile (quite useful for reactor room for example), or a pack of homing missiles. "static" robots are the main problem, but you should be careful with the roaming ones, as the level is not that big and you don't have much space to dodge.

Still (or was it static?) robots are nice to have too, since without them the level can start feeling empty once they start roaming. Normal AI is probably a good in-between solution. I agree about an invulnerability, it would make the level way too easy. Homing Missiles sound like a good idea, you can never have too many of those. Smarts are going to be held off until after the 2nd boss I think, along with Plasma, so the Solar System levels will be running on quite a limited arsenal overall.

How is vulcan ammo going to be given out? Is there going to sometimes be big chunks of ammo or lots of individual one dotted around?

TRUEpiiiicness wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:14 am How is vulcan ammo going to be given out? Is there going to sometimes be big chunks of ammo or lots of individual one dotted around?

A mixture of both I guess, just so it feels natural and not very gimmicky, and so the player has enough ammo to take care of stuff.

BTW this level 4 probably has too much Vulcan ammo, did not checked it on cold-start however.

No such thing as too much ammo when you're restricted to a narrow choice of weaponry like this. Spreadfire comes in in level 5 - speaking of which, this should probably be tested for balance using the altered HAM file, since that brings Spread to its D1 projectile speed, making it an altogether different weapon. Further down the line testing with the altered HAM will be even more important, since quad lasers and Fusion are going to be way better than in regular D2.

I just updated the main HOG with the fix for level 1, and added the midi music for levels 1-5 too. No SNG yet (so the level 5 track won't play till there is one).
42's nearly finished, and so's my new music track...

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:59 pm I just updated the main HOG with the fix for level 1, and added the midi music for levels 1-5 too. No SNG yet (so the level 5 track won't play till there is one).
42's nearly finished, and so's my new music track...

You've been keeping busy I see, lol I'll check it out right away - music plays a huge part in building the atmosphere of the level, so I'd much rather imprint on the new tracks when playing

Oh, on the other hand, I'm running outta space on Dropbox. I know what to remove to make room, but I'd need a recommendation of a good and more or less permanent file hosting service for it - it's my D1 demo catalogue for all 30 levels cold start etc. I want it to be available for downloads, and stuff like sendspace only hosts stuff for a while before it gets taken down

EDIT: I can see the HMP and HMQ files in the HOG now, but I didn't see any change to level 1, nor do the new midis actually play in Rebirth. Regular D2 midis play for me instead, so you probably do need an SNG file after all.

EDIT 2: Oh, now upon closer inspection I did see something, I guess - you lowered the ceiling next to the grated wall so that it doesn't look 2D anymore. Didn't pick it up at first, as I'd thought what bothered you was the fact that the secret door opens into a wall with grates in it, which kinda shouldn't happen.

Are you sure you haven't got one of those DXAs with recorded versions of the midi files? Sometimes that screws up custom midi songs.
The midis play for me.

EDIT: Played through the levels to make sure of that -- I really think the enemy placement is off; the pacing of the mission as it is right now is very weak. The Parallax missions, and especially D1, had rooms and hallways without enemies, or rooms with only one or two well-chosen bots. That created suspense and made each robot introduction feel meaningful. With this many bots coming at me constantly there's too much intensity to feel anticipation and no room for the question "what's coming next?" to really seep into the consciousness. And the robot introductions just feel like another face in the crowd instead of something important or threatening. Canary's introduction on level 3, especially, could have been so much more. The levels have no atmosphere but flying laser bolts.

You've got a good handle on the difficulty, but none of the fights feel tense or, better yet, meaningful (this on ace). The levels feel like they're built for insane 100% runs and nothing else; I know that's how you like to play and it's how Alex likes to play, so all the feedback you've got so far is geared to that; but it's only one playstyle. And a big fight is only one kind of fight. Speaking for myself, this constant robot spam is not even close to fun.

I recommend replaying the first seven levels of D1 and paying close attention to where robots are placed, what robots are placed, how many and where. Your own levels have lots of good spots where one or two robots of the cast you've chosen could equal the five you've got in the room now, if you used them. And a lot of good spots to create tension that I'm sure you put in there deliberately when you made the level structure, and then ignored. A good example is the start of level 3 -- ditch the two drones and move the smelter into the cube above the blue door and you have a memorable level intro instead of just another fight.

You mentioned in your OP you wanted to talk to people who have experience with populating levels (not just with playing them) in order to help you get this part right. I highly recommend running these four maps by Sirius. His missions with DH have great pacing and plenty of scary moments, without losing that fairness that you've already got down. And he's only gotten better at it since then.
So far the only person you've talked to is not a level designer or a level populator, just a player with their own playstyle. It's still very useful feedback but it's feedback that should have come after the feedback from other designers.

...
As for that door in level 1: you can't open it from the side where you can see the grate anyway. I don't have a problem with it because watching it close isn't nearly so visually jarring as watching it open from that side would be.