Duper wrote:Mother Teresa:
How do we KNOW that God NEVER spoke to her??
Her view on this is based on things Mother Teresa said in her letters.
By the way Bettina, I got "Come Be My Light" recently, and I'll be reading it as soon as I finish a series I promised my son I'd read.
Lothar wrote:I'd have a hard time stating that any particular thing is "impossible" for mankind to ever observe. Some things are presently out of reach, but what can you declare is truly impossible?
The universe is expanding. This doesn't mean that objects are moving through it, but that space itself is expanding. Objects can not move faster than the speed of light, but if space is expanding uniformly everywhere, at a certain distance space is expanding between two objects at a rate such that light can NEVER reach between them.
Object A releases a photon towards object B. In one year that photon has traveled one light year of the distance between object A and object B. BUT, in that same year, the space between object A and object B has expanded by a fraction OVER a light year. The photon is actually further from object B than when it started. Even with an eternity to travel, it will never get any closer to object B. Object B might as well be in another universe because no connection between it and object A is possible.
Bettina wrote:I wanted to respond to this earlier
Believe me, I understand! My response times have not exactly been stellar recently. Life gets in the way.
Bettina wrote:I also want you to know that I consider you my friend so if there is any part of what I say that seems arrogant it's unintentional.
Don't waste time worrying that you might offend me. If a friendship can't handle disagreements, it wont last very long. And besides, discussing things with people who agree with me only occasionally adds anything to my pool of knowledge. However, I almost always learn something when discussing things with people who DISAGREE with me. Either I solidify the foundation of what I believe in, or I discover something flaw in my beliefs that must be discarded. Either way, I'm better off than I was before.
Bettina wrote:the assumption that systems beyond our detection are somehow important to us doesn't make any sense. We are only able to view 4% of our observable universe which, according to WMAP, is only 1/1,000,000th of the whole universe created from the big bang. So, how is the vastness of the universe that you can never see, never visit, and if it disappeared tommorrow would go unnoticed, important to you and I?
The observable universe is important just because it can be observed. If that were the only reason for its existence, that would be adequate. As I stated in my previous message, the unobservable universe is useful to us for pure inspiration.
Of course, just to be perverse, I have to point out that, by definition, we cannot prove that the unobservable universe even exists. As far as we know, the universe ends at the edge of our lightsphere. I DON'T believe that, but it is an amusing concept.
Of course, the universe doesn't HAVE to have meaning to US to have meaning and purpose, but that's part of the rest of the discussion.
Bettina wrote:Kilarin wrote:Using the universal speed limit as an argument against God is arguing based on speculation about the limits of future knowledge. Very shaky grounds indeed.
No it isn't. Our observable universe really does operate on a specific set of laws. If they were any different the universe wouldn't act the way it does.
Absolutely. My objection is in the assertion that because we understand some of those laws, we have an absolute understanding of how the universe works.
For example, if you had suggested to any reputable scientist before 1905 that space and time were not absolute they would have laughed at you, and presented ample evidence to prove that Newtonian physics were FACTS. They were, of course, they just weren't ALL the facts.
Will we find a way around the light speed barrier? I have my doubts. Almost everything we have seen so far points against it. The most promising answers seem entirely impractical. But to exclude the possibility is incredibly presumptuous. Science has a LONG way to go before it really understands the universe. And there are a significant number of legitimate scientist who consider the question worth further research. I can provide a list if you'd like.
Bettina wrote:...but as far as God moving people around is just another story like any other supernatural spookyness. You haven't proven anything to me.
But I'm not TRYING to prove that God can work miracles, only that Christians believe that He can. I'm not even trying to prove that a vast universe proves God exists. It doesn't. If the universe is uncaused, it could be big and uncaused, or small and uncaused. I don't see that it's size makes any logical difference.
But you ARE making the opposite argument, that a vast universe is inconsistent with the existence of the Christian God. The God that Christians believe in can, obviously, take people anywhere in His creation that He wants. This makes the argument "We can't get there so it's pointless", pointless.
Assuming a God who can work miracles, a vast universe is certainly not contradictory with His existence. If your argument is that God can't work miracles, then the vastness of the universe has nothing to do with it.
Christian theology believes in a vast God, compared to whom we are entirely insignificant.
Isaiah 40:12-17 wrote:Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance? Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counselor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and showed to him the way of understanding? Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing. And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering. All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
You might be able to make some arguments against the Christian God from "The universe is small", but "The universe is vast" fits in with Christian theology without a hitch.
Bettina wrote:If humans aren't God's only creation do other aliens on the billions of other planets know of Jesus's death on Earth? Do the other life forms pray in front of a replica of Earth's crucifix? Do they visit a replica of Earth's Holy land?
If they aren't fallen, then they would not be in need of redemption from their sins. If they ARE fallen, Christ may have a separate plan (and sacrifice) just for them. Or perhaps not. The Bible does not confirm or deny the existence of other people on other worlds, so while any speculation about them is a lot of fun, it is ONLY speculation. We aren't told their story.
Bettina wrote:Are those other worlds just for Angels?
Certainly possible, although not necessary.
Bettina wrote:Do they have a creation museum that shows 1.2 million people a year that the planet they live on is only 6000 years old and teaches the "fact" that man and dinosaour lived at the same time?
Now you are drifting off topic...
Bettina wrote:Do those aliens consider their planet the center?
IF they exist, then Probably, and they ARE. Have you, by any chance, read C. S. Lewis' "Perelandra"? Where is the center of the expanding universe? Everywhere is the center. And where God is concerned, everyone is at the center of the universe. You, me, some alien on another world, we are ALL the center. He has attention to spare.
Bettina wrote:I don't believe that any loving God would be so selfish as to build a park full of swings, show the little children, then tell them they can't play there. Not only that, but put hostile things in their path so if they dared to go they would die. It may be theologically sound but certainly not logical.
I think Lothar answered this one very well. There have been times my son has come home from school and discovered that one of his favorite dishes had been cooked at lunch while he wasn't home to enjoy it. I tell him, "I didn't cook it for YOU!" My wife and I cook lots of good things for him, but not everything we cook is for him, nor does he have the right to expect that it should be.
Bettina wrote:You look up into the night sky and see a universe that was created by God for His viewing pleasure with just a miniscule part being carved out for humans. I look up and see the universe as a progression of a natural event that continues to birth planets and destroy others at the same time. Only after death will you know if you were right all along. Wave to me, I'll be on level B2.
Exactly! The vastness of the universe does not prove or disprove the existence of God. It is compatible with the position of the universe as caused or uncaused. It gives us no help in answering the question either way.