DescentBB

Drakona wrote:...So, eh. I think it's a good idea from that perspective, and I think a political demonstration is about the most reasonable place to do it.

This is wrong in so many ways it would be impossible to find a starting point. I would never want to live in your world.

Bee

Bet51987 wrote:

Drakona wrote:...So, eh. I think it's a good idea from that perspective, and I think a political demonstration is about the most reasonable place to do it.

This is wrong in so many ways it would be impossible to find a starting point. I would never want to live in your world.

Bee

You aren't thinking about it in the context of the perspective she is talking about because if you did, and understood the significance of that perspective, you would realize how right she is!
You are trying too hard to find fault instead of listening to the point being made. You already live in her world you just don't understand it....

If you want to make a political statement about gun rights then a political rally with national attention is much better venue than the local gun range.
I think he doesn't gain as much ground as he loses because of todays political climate with regard to guns but if you are seeking to engage and change minds you have to take the fight to the public...he definitely got it there. Unfortunately for his cause Drakona, or other logical intelligent people, are not the ones explaining these things to the public on the news and in editorials.

Will Robinson wrote:

Drakona wrote:...and I think a political demonstration is about the most reasonable place to do it.

...
If you want to make a political statement about gun rights then a political rally with national attention is much better venue than the local gun range.

Being at a political rally makes his statement more effective. His attempt to convey a message certainly got the attention of more people that way.

However, IMO, it's still not a "reasonable" place to do so, for reasons I've already stated.

I might describe it as "effective despite its carelessness".

Bet51987 wrote:I would never want to live in your world.

LOL. Well, given that last time we had this conversation, your final refuge was this:

Bettina wrote:Emotions have been my guide throughout life. They've been instrumental in my decision making and I'm able to see clearly because of them. Emotion always reveals truth.

And given that you write as though you really believe that . . .

Right back atcha, sister!

Drakona wrote:

Bettina wrote:Emotions have been my guide throughout life. They've been instrumental in my decision making and I'm able to see clearly because of them. Emotion always reveals truth.

did she really say that?????? if so that explains tons. emotions NEVER reveal the truth. deep emotion cannot be controlled and cause irrational thinking, irrational thinking will not lead to the truth

CUDA wrote:

Drakona wrote:

Bettina wrote:Emotions have been my guide throughout life. They've been instrumental in my decision making and I'm able to see clearly because of them. Emotion always reveals truth.

did she really say that?????? if so that explains tons. emotions NEVER reveal the truth. deep emotion cannot be controlled and cause irrational thinking, irrational thinking will not lead to the truth

It's why I try to avoid the E&C: Lots of facts heavily filtered through opinion.
edit:
This goes for most of you.

Isaac wrote:...
It's why I try to avoid the E&C: Lots of facts heavily filtered through opinion.
edit:
This goes for most of you.

It goes for anyone with a brain! You need to explore the opinions and test them against what you know to be true or what you can learn on the subject in order to better shape your own opinion.

When you go to the doctor he'll give you the facts filtered through his opinion, that's no reason to avoid him though....

Isaac wrote:It's why I try to avoid the E&C: Lots of facts heavily filtered through opinion.
edit:
This goes for most of you.

Opinion and emotion are not the same thing. you can have your opinions based of facts. BUT emotion WILL influence your opinion, you lose your ability to reason if you cannot control your emotions.

Will Robinson wrote:It goes for anyone with a brain! You need to explore the opinions and test them against what you know to be true or what you can learn on the subject in order to better shape your own opinion.

When you go to the doctor he'll give you the facts filtered through his opinion, that's no reason to avoid him though....

If you say opinion is a compiled answer from a large amount of related data then I agree. But that's not what I see here. Emotions here lead to hostile levity.

CUDA wrote:Opinion and emotion are not the same thing. you can have your opinions based of facts. BUT emotion WILL influence your opinion, you lose your ability to reason if you cannot control your emotions.

This is true. That detail was missed when I wrote my comment. Here's my opinion based on fact: An emotional person's ability to reason is anchored by personal opinion. Reasoning with a person unemotionally tied to a topic will achieve more.

I like this new topic (\"Emotions, Reason, and Truth\"). Any chance of splitting it from the current thread?

Drakona wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:I would never want to live in your world.

LOL. Well, given that last time we had this conversation, your

final refuge was this:

Bettina wrote:Emotions have been my guide throughout life. They've been instrumental in my decision making and I'm able to see

clearly because of them. Emotion always reveals truth.

And given that you write as though you really believe that . . .

Right back atcha, sister!

I wasn't the only one who found your previous post to be illogical but if you feel that kicking the little dog gives it credence then I'm here for you big sister.

CUDA wrote:...did she really say that?????? if so that explains tons. emotions NEVER reveal the truth. deep emotion cannot be

controlled and cause irrational thinking, irrational thinking will not lead to the truth

We all have emotions that sometimes get out of control and lead to flawed thinking or irrational outbursts like this....

CUDA wrote: I find this HIGHLY OFFENSIVE, I served in that DAMNED Military, I protected people like you. and I find this attitude totally unacceptable, if you don't like the government its one thing, but to smear the service of the men and women that VOLUNTARILY served this country with their lives(5)

To act as if emotion wasn't part of a logical equation would place a human being in the same category as [BOZ]Vincent so lets not pretend it's not an influence. As for me, my emotional control is weakest when I'm in church or when I see inhumanity at it's worst but I have no problem putting them aside when pointing out someone's flawed logic in this forum.

Bettina

I'm with Bettina on this one. Emotions are there for a reason.

Yes, we have both emotions and desires for a good reason, but I find it amusing when one uses emotion to form a logical argument…that’s what reason is for…

Emotions are much better for things like…fight or flight…who to date…and such.

You have 2 sides of a brain…use them accordingly.

you obviously still do not understand the difference

you said.

Emotions have been my guide throughout life. They've been instrumental in my decision making and I'm able to see

clearly because of them. Emotion always reveals truth.

I said

emotions NEVER reveal the truth. deep emotion cannot be

controlled and cause irrational thinking, irrational thinking will not lead to the truth

and thanks for making my point for me with the quote to TC. I had an emotional outburst based upon a miss interpreted statement by TC. I was in error. if I had read the statement correct I would not have responded in that fashion. so you made my point for me. but your premise of emotions revealing truth is in error.

Logical vs. emotional decision-making
Decision-making is a cognitive process where the outcome is a choice between alternatives. We often have different preferences as to our preferred, approach, varying between thinking and feeling.

Logical decision-making
When we use logic to make decisions, we seek to exclude emotions, using only rational methods, and perhaps even mathematical tools. The foundation of such decisions is the principle of utility, whereby the value of each option is assessed by assigning criteria (often weighted).

Emotional decision-making
There is a whole range of decision-making that uses emotion, depending on the degree of logic that is included in the process.

A totally emotional decision is typically very fast. This is because it takes time (at least 0.1 seconds) for the rational cortex to get going. This is the reactive (and largely subconscious) decision-making that you encounter in heated arguments or when faced with immediate danger.

Common emotional decisions may use some logic, but the main driving force is emotion, which either overrides logic or uses a pseudo-logic to support emotional choices (this is extremely common).

Another common use of emotion in decision is to start with logic and then use emotion in the final choice.

Emotions as an information source
In “Risk as Feelings”, Loewenstein, Weber and Hsee [1] argue that these processes of decision making include ‘anticipatory emotions’ and ‘anticipated emotions’: “anticipatory emotions are immediate visceral reactions (fear, anxiety, dread) to risk and uncertainties”; “anticipated emotions are typically not experienced in the immediate present but are expected to be experienced in the future” (disappointment or regret). Both types of emotions serve as additional source of information.
For example, research shows that happy decision-makers are reluctant to gamble. The fact that a person is happy would them decide against gambling, since they would not want to undermine the happy feeling. This can be looked upon as \"mood maintenance\" [2].

According to the information hypothesis, feelings during the decision process affects people's choices, in cases where feelings are experienced as reactions to the imminent decision. If feelings are attributed to an irrelevant source to the decision at hand, their impact is reduced or eliminated.

Zajonc [3] argues that emotions are meant to help people take or avoid taking a stand, versus cognitive calculus that helps people make a true/false decision.

Cuda, I already explained it in my previous post, and just to be clear, not wanting to live in Drakona's world of guns wasn't based purely on emotion.

Bee

But for what reason should people be rational in the first place? It can't be because being rational is rational, since this would just be begging the question.

I think that emotional ultimately drives reason, not the other way around.

Jeff250 wrote:But for what reason should people be rational in the first place? It can't be because being rational is rational, since this would just be begging the question.

I think that emotional ultimately drives reason, not the other way around.

Not true. I believe that ultimately, logic drives reason, and that emotion drives unreason. Just my $.02.

Rage is a emotion and when under the control of, all reason and logic flees.

I don’t believe emotion drives reason, or vice versa, but it is a well known fact that emotion has more influence on people’s decisions. (ask any salesman)

Your emotions are quicker than reason, and for good reason…

It takes a disciplined mind to overrule emotions with reason, and quite frankly, is not always a good idea. (except in a debate, where it is always a good idea…J/K )

Also one misconception is that emotion and reason are opposers, and this leads to the wrong assumptions.

They both have their place, and like I said, should be used accordingly.

Spidey wrote:Also one misconception is that emotion and reason are opposers, and this leads to the wrong assumptions.

Thank you for correcting me. And I agree with you to a point. Here's what you were really trying to say: Positive emotions enforce logic and employ endorphins, even during stressful situations. But negative emotions can lower your IQ down ~10 points. //Navy seal training promotes people smiling while undergoing intense painful exercises.

...Logic.

it's a Greek notion. The only reason we believe in it is because we've grown up with it. You (we) are conditioned.

AlphaDoG wrote:Not true. I believe that ultimately, logic drives reason, and that emotion drives unreason.

Well, if you think that there's a difference between logic and reason, then why should we be logical? (You can't appeal to anything logical for the same reasons as before.)

I think that for people to behave rationally (or logically), there has to be something nonrational that ultimately compels us to do this.

Duper wrote:it's a Greek notion. The only reason we believe in it is because we've grown up with it. You (we) are conditioned.

Yeah, I think that habit is a large part of it too.

AlphaDoG wrote:...and that emotion drives unreason. Just my $.02.

You should do some research.

Bee

If you are looking for what “compels” people to be rational, and I don’t think anybody is “compeled” you might want to consider that it may be “desire”. Desire is a much deeper thought process than emotion, which is for the most part a very autonomic function, caused by external stimulus. (for the most part, because there are also delayed emotions, caused by ones own actions, such as guilt or remorse)

Emotions are reflex actions, designed to provide someone with first line of defense, and quick response to a situation.(except for the delayed action emotions, which provide hindsight instead) I somehow doubt that such shallow autonomic responses can “drive” someone to think with reason.

Rational thought involves effort, most people are lazy, and would rather just use what the brain provides without much effort.

Or, I just don’t understand what you mean. If you are saying that actions based on emotion get you into trouble, more times than not…I would still have to say, it would be the “desire” to change that situation, that would “compel” someone to stop, and use rational thinking instead.

The cause and effect is certainly having a bearing, in any case.

So what I’m saying is that I believe people “want” to be rational, rather than are “driven” to it.


BTW…I agree with you Bee…My comment about emotion vs. reason was directed at this, and not at Isaac.

Add to above….

Just because you wouldn’t use a screwdriver to pound in a nail, doesn’t mean that a screwdriver is the opposite of a hammer.

Someone please fix the edit function….

If someone tried to take that guys rifle, while their hands were occupied trying to pull the rifle and it's sling free from his shoulder, there is a chance he would have pulled out a pistol and shot them in the middle of their tug of war.

I think the odds of someone spontaneously deciding to take his weapon and use it to hurt innocent people in the crowd is right up there with their spontaneously deciding to shove bystanders in front of cars driving by.

I don't like his method of delivering the message because it was weak on substance relative to the excessive shock value but he didn't increase the potential for catastrophe by much if any at all. If he was a conscientious sort the rifle was probably unloaded since the purpose of it that day was as a mere prop.

Not only unloaded, but the safety was probably on as well.

I like probably.