When Islam Acts Like a Conquering Army

[Kilarin]

I bet you don't want planned parenthood passing out condoms in schools. It seems to send the message that authority condones promiscuity since the authority is providing the condom.
Well, the 'authority' of public opinion shouldn't be goaded into sanctioning the Islamofacsist's trojan mosque.

The "authority" of pubic opinion? I'm not certain what you are trying to say here.

What happens in the public schools is a matter of very hot debate because they are owned and run by our government, which means all of us.

If planned parenthood wanted to pass out condoms from their own private offices, that would be a very DIFFERENT debate. And if minors weren't involved, a very simple one.

I disagree with Jehovah's Witnesses theology. For that matter, I disagree with Catholic theology. And the feeling is mutual on both counts. But I wouldn't protest, or even complain about either group setting up a church on private property. Heck, I'd be downright supportive. If my church's theology can't compete with theirs, then members SHOULD switch allegiance to another church.

Now the Mosque situation is a hotter topic for at least two reasons.

One, there is the funding question, which I need to do more research on.

Twp, people feel it is in bad taste to put up an Islamic center so close to a place where monsters fighting in the name of Islam murdered so many people. And they've got a valid point. But I still don't think that protesting helps. And simply saying that they have the right to build where they want is NOT supporting them or their cause.

[Will Robinson]

I bet you don't want planned parenthood passing out condoms in schools. It seems to send the message that authority condones promiscuity since the authority is providing the condom.
Well, the 'authority' of public opinion shouldn't be goaded into sanctioning the Islamofacsist's trojan mosque.

The "authority" of pubic opinion? I'm not certain what you are trying to say here.

That was a Lothar specific angle that didn't translate too well. I'll try to frame it for everyone.

The majority is being shouted down as bigots for pointing out that building on that site is offensive.
Well the right to point it out should be just as important as the right for the developer to build.

The majority of the public is the authority on what the majority feels and thinks. So the vocal minority (amplified by the talking heads in media) need to stop trying to usurp that authority and shout us down for expressing our disbelief that this mosque is merely another mosque like every other one in New York. It isn't. It is very site specific. It is completely linked to the attack on 9-11-2001 not just based on my opinion but based on the developers own public statements so the site and it's meaning is very much open for discussion...at least it should be.
Now we can debate the connection and the intent of all the players all day but to suggest we can't even point out the significance of the site choice without being bigots is ridiculous!

If you follow the logic that there are unintended (or even intended) consequences for passing out condoms to children then you can't sincerely deny the unintended consequences of the public being whipped into submission to graciously accept the construction of an Islamic center/Mosque on Ground Zero turf.

The right to publicly oppose the Center/Mosque at that location is just as protected as the right to build it. If I'm a bigot for merely wanting to point it out and frame the project as being offensive to the public and discuss it why is the Imam not a bigot for wanting to build a Mosque at Ground Zero? (The point there should be obvious that, no, neither are bigots for having their view.)

Like I mentioned before this is all linked to the financing of the project because if it isn't really a strike back at the radicals and in fact is being financed by the radicals then what must be the real intent behind the project?!? We would have to be fools for graciously accepting the prospect of a an Islamic terrorist funded center/Mosque at that location!! Absolutely foolish!

You've heard the expression:
'Don't piss down my back and tell me it is raining'
Well to paraphrase a famous campaign slogan from a few years ago:

Don't call me a bigot because I complained about the piss from a Muslim. It's the piss stupid!

[Heretic]

So why does the Inman Farouk Abdul Rauf say that America is a Sharia Compliant State?

“What I am demonstrating is that the American political structure is Shariah compliant, for a \"state inhabited predominantly by Muslims neither defines nor makes it synonymous with an Islamic state. It can become truly Islamic only by virtues of a conscious application of the sociopolitical tenets of Islam to the life of the national, and by an incorporation of those tenets in the basic constitution of the country. By the same token, a state that does incorporate such sociopolitical tenets has become a de facto Islamic state even if there are no Muslims in name living there, for it expresses the ideals of the good society according to Islamic principles. For America to score even higher on the \"Islamic\" or \"Shariah Compliance\" scale, America would need to do two things: invite the voices of all religions to join the dialogue in shaping the nation's practical life, and allow religious communities more leeway to judge among themselves according to their own laws” (86).

So does he want to implement Shariah? Does he want to get rid of our constitution and our way of life? how long before he is crying out like this?

Hardline Islamic penal codes, such as the amputation of limbs as punishment for theft, would make Britain a safer and better place, the founder of the country’s oldest sharia court has told The Times.

[null0010]

Al Queda hates the Cordoba House project even more than conservatives do because those who are building it are Sufis

http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/ ... a-vs-islam

As has been previously reported, the Cordoba House is being built by Sufi Muslims, a mystical sub-sect of the Shia Muslims and considered apostates of Wahabbist Sunni sub-sect of al Qaeda.

Fareed Zakaria highlights further proof of the al Qaeda hatred of the Sufis with the July attack on a Lahore, Pakistan Sufi shrine during prayers, which killed 41 and injured 175 more. What gets lost in the amped-up "fear of the Other" rhetoric of Gingrich and Palin and driven by media like Fox News, is that this is not a battle of Islam vs. the US.

[Heretic]

So, that really doesn't answer any of the questions I asked now does it.

[null0010]

I have a life outside of you, Heretic.

[Heretic]

What a cop out. Maybe you should get a life outside of trolling.

[null0010]

What a cop out. Maybe you should get a life outside of trolling.

My post was not intended as a response to you, it was intended as, "hey look, here's some more information you may not be aware of."

Anyways,

the Imam does not want to "get rid of the Constitution," and him calling the United States "Shariah compliant" is an appeal to more fundamentalist groups. He is trying to say, "hey guys, if you soften up your interpretations of Shariah a little bit, the United States is really quite nice. It would be better, however, if the United States would more readily allow arbitration agreements for more crimes (here, I assume he means "internal" or muslim-on-muslim crimes) to be heard in a Shariah court."

Britain's oldest Shariah court is not Imam Farouk. There, I gave you your attention, now stop doing handstands on the beach.

[Heretic]

That last line just proves you are a troll. If you have a problem with the Times claim on the oldest sharia court in Britain take it up with them not me. Now you can do some more trolling in favor of Islamic beliefs.

[Foil]

Heretic, chill.

If you disagree with a statement, refute it. However, posting digs and troll accusations doesn't count as valid discussion in my book.

I've been enjoying this thread; I'd prefer not to see it go downhill.

[Isaac]

[Heretic]

Heretic, chill.

If you disagree with a statement, refute it. However, posting digs and troll accusations doesn't count as valid discussion in my book.

I've been enjoying this thread; I'd prefer not to see it go downhill.

A troll is a troll is a troll. Who made you a moderator.

[Foil]

I don't care about your opinion of him, Heretic.

At least in this thread, Null's posts have been about the topic at hand. I'd appreciate it if you did the same, rather than throwing digs.

Oh, and I'm not a moderator; I simply hate seeing threads turn into crap-fests because one or two people can't help but throw *** at each other.

----------

Anyway, back to the subject:

How do you all see this playing out?

Personally, after the media frenzy dies down, I'd anticipate it turning into a drawn-out legal issue. I've heard there have been a number of official complaints filed, and I'd guess the opposition to the project will be somewhat successful at tying things up in the system for some time.

[Heretic]

I see the same happening lots of lawsuits. It will get built. Then well see pictures of racial islamist dancing in the street in places like Saudi Arabia with them burning the US flag with a cry of victory to the attack on US soil and the deaths of the 2,752 souls in the WTC. With Feisal Abdul Rauf wanting to see America become sharia compliant, I just can't help but think he will be a threat to the US Constitution and America's way of life by promoting sharia laws in the US.

[null0010]

I see lots of protests and screaming, followed by the Cordoba House getting built, followed by frivolous lawsuits, and then after the midterm elections, only the wingnuttiest moonbats will even remember that they ever thought this was ever a bad thing.

Here is an interesting look at where the money for the Cordoba House is coming from.

[Heretic]

Miss USA: Move mosque from ground zero

[Kilarin]

My prediction?

The center eventually gets built.
Protesters, encouraged by conservative talk show hosts, continue to picket outside.
Vandals mark up the building, then grow bolder and start doing real damage.
The protesters began harassing visitors to the center.
Finally, some individual attending the center is attacked and severely beaten or perhaps killed by some young \"Christian\" hoodlums who feel they are somehow defending the faith by beating a Muslim to a bloody pulp.

And, last step, some idiot who thinks he is getting vengeance (Wounded Knee style) bombs the clinic, killing lots of innocents and igniting more violence on both sides.

I hope, (and pray), I'm wrong.

[woodchip]

I see all the New York Mob controlled construction companies and unions boycotting by not supplying labor or material to build it. Hard hats save ground zero in their own inimical way.

[null0010]

I see all the New York Mob controlled construction companies and unions boycotting by not supplying labor or material to build it. Hard hats save ground zero in their own inimical way.

In this economy?

[Ferno]

I see all the New York Mob controlled construction companies and unions boycotting by not supplying labor or material to build it. Hard hats save ground zero in their own inimical way.

you're seriously not implying that ground zero is under attack, are you?

oh wait, yes you are.

[Cuda68]

I see all the New York Mob controlled construction companies and unions boycotting by not supplying labor or material to build it. Hard hats save ground zero in their own inimical way.

you're seriously not implying that ground zero is under attack, are you?

oh wait, yes you are.

Well, we know know Ferno is not from New York, or Jersey or anywhere in the upper east part of the country.

[Will Robinson]

I see all the New York Mob controlled construction companies and unions boycotting by not supplying labor or material to build it. Hard hats save ground zero in their own inimical way.

In this economy?

Heh, with the current administration in power no union has to worry about doing actual work in order to be paid! Stimulus baby! Stimulus! Obama has already exempted Unions from his new taxes and even gave them private industry he confiscated so don't worry about their income.
He may tell them to be quiet about not building it though...to which they would most likely tell him to ★■◆● off!

[AlphaDoG]

I see all the New York Mob controlled construction companies and unions boycotting by not supplying labor or material to build it. Hard hats save ground zero in their own inimical way.

you're seriously not implying that ground zero is under attack, are you?

oh wait, yes you are.

You AREN'T seriously implying that woodchip implied that ground zero is under attack are you?

Oh wait, there aren't any towers there? Are there?

[Top Gun]

I see all the New York Mob controlled construction companies and unions boycotting by not supplying labor or material to build it. Hard hats save ground zero in their own inimical way.

you're seriously not implying that ground zero is under attack, are you?

oh wait, yes you are.

Well, we know know Ferno is not from New York, or Jersey or anywhere in the upper east part of the country.

Or maybe he is and isn't nearly as willing to submit to baseless fear-mongering as some of you are.

Honestly, it sickens me that my countrymen have viewed this as a contentious issue. Maybe someday we'll be collectively smart enough that most of the rest of the developed world stop pointing at us and laughing.

[Nightshade]

Maybe someday we'll be collectively smart enough that most of the rest of the developed world stop pointing at us and laughing.

Guess what? A lot of Europeans aren't laughing anymore. Several European countries are enacting laws against muslim veils, minarets and deporting muslims that refuse to assimilate into western society.

Suddenly \"enlightened\" Europe has become extremely intolerant, haven't they?

[woodchip]

To further TB's reply:

\"Switzerland risks Muslim backlash after minarets vote
Switzerland risked a Muslim backlash on Sunday after its citizens voted overwhelmingly to ban minarets on mosques.\"

\"The number of people emigrating from the city of Malmø is reaching record levels. Swedes, who a couple of decades ago decided to open the doors to Muslim “refugees” and asylum seekers, are now turned into refugees in their own country and forced to flee their homes. The people abandoning the city mention crime and fear of the safety of their children as the main reason for leaving.\"

\"Opinion polls had predicted the anti-Muslim Party for Freedom would do well in Dutch elections this week - but not this well.

Led by the controversial politician Geert Wilders, the party nearly tripled its representation in parliament, from 9 seats to 24, according to exit polls. \"

\"PARIS -- The French government decided Wednesday to impose a $185 fine on women who wear a full-face Islamic veil in public, pushing ahead with a controversial ban despite signs of tension between France's Muslims and the Christian-tradition majority. \"

\"Nine people were arrested Sunday as a peaceful demonstration
called \"March for England\" turned violent after hundreds of masked anti-Muslim protestors clashed with police and attacked an Asian man while chanting \"terrorists out\" of the United Kingdom.

The protest in Luton, 51 kilometers (32 miles) north of London, was supposed to be a peaceful rally in retaliation against a protest at a welcome home parade two months ago in which a group of Muslims branded British soldiers returning from Iraq as \"killers.\"

[woodchip]

I see all the New York Mob controlled construction companies and unions boycotting by not supplying labor or material to build it. Hard hats save ground zero in their own inimical way.

you're seriously not implying that ground zero is under attack, are you?

oh wait, yes you are.

Well, we know know Ferno is not from New York, or Jersey or anywhere in the upper east part of the country.

Or maybe he is and isn't nearly as willing to submit to baseless fear-mongering as some of you are.

Not fear mongering, rather a majority of Americans just don't want a symbol of the faith that killed 3000 of us near the site where it happened. Unless of course you are of the opinion that Islam had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack?

All this aside I see a clever ploy by a Imam to raise money to help build himself a nice mosque. Just look at all the free advertising he is getting.

[Will Robinson]

You could say there are three kind of immigrants, those who want to assimilate, those who are comfortable not assimilating and living in a pocket of their own culture within the host country's culture (think: Chinatown) and those who seek to change the host country to represent their culture.

If you get enough of the latter and they are Muslim your country will enable the radicals the same way they do in their home country.
So if you think an abortion clinic bomber once per decade sucks wait until you have a sizable faction of radical Islam flexing it's brand of political and social 'protest'!
Actually, no, please don't wait!

Since we have the test models out there in Europe as has been mentioned here you are going to have a hard time convincing me that standing up to them now is a bad idea.

When asked to denounce terrorist and the person equivocates and rationalizes instead of acknowledging that Hamas is a terrorist organization it is fair to wonder what kind of immigrant he would be a sponsor of.
I think calling our desire to point this out \"fearmongoring\" is rather shortsighted. I understand there are real bigots sounding the alarm as well but don't be so simpleminded to not recognize there are legitimate concerns being raised within this debate.

I'm not asking people to blanket hate Muslims but stop acting like you have no right and no reason to challenge what is the status quo among Islamic cultures which is an unnecessarily large ratio of radicals and a tendency for the rank and file Muslim to shelter and breed the radicals out of traditions and religious laws.

It isn't bigoted to examine this regressive movement of Islam, it is wise. Certainly it is uncomfortable for moderate Muslims but their discomfort brought on by their culture in a collision with the rest of the world is in no way sound reasoning for the rest of the world to turn a blind eye to it.

There are times when a religion is forced to give up certain practices by the laws of the land it lives under. Why in the world people want to exempt Islam from any chance of having some of their practices challenged and stopped is beyond me considering the ratio of terrorism delivered by radical Islam compared to the rest of the religious factions that live here relatively peacefully and compliant to our laws. We don't need Sharia law for us to have a more perfect society, we need all our citizens to recognize American law as the authority and if they need Sharia law in their lives immigrate in a different direction! I'm sure the Taliban would love to have some replacements right now.

[d3jake]

1) They are telling us they want to push back against the radicals by building this center but actually it will be the radicals who will fund it!

Perhaps I missed it as I haven't been following this thread nearly as close as others, but I have to ask:

Aside from a group of nutcases using Islam to justify their hate, what ties are there between the group who wants to develop this property and "radicals"? Is it the nutcases themselves out in the middle east somewhere claiming that they're funneling the money in?

[Top Gun]

Not fear mongering, rather a majority of Americans just don't want a symbol of the faith that killed 3000 of us near the site where it happened. Unless of course you are of the opinion that Islam had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack?

I know that these Muslims had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack, and that there are already a few mosques in Lower Manhattan "near" Ground Zero. So you tell me...where's the debate again?

[null0010]

Maybe someday we'll be collectively smart enough that most of the rest of the developed world stop pointing at us and laughing.

Guess what? A lot of Europeans aren't laughing anymore. Several European countries are enacting laws against muslim veils, minarets and deporting muslims that refuse to assimilate into western society.

Suddenly "enlightened" Europe has become extremely intolerant, haven't they?

To further TB's reply:

"Switzerland risked a Muslim backlash on Sunday after its citizens voted overwhelmingly to ban minarets on mosques."

"PARIS -- The French government decided Wednesday to impose a $185 fine on women who wear a full-face Islamic veil in public, pushing ahead with a controversial ban despite signs of tension between France's Muslims and the Christian-tradition majority. "

"Nine people were arrested Sunday as a peaceful demonstration
called "March for England" turned violent"

Okay, so, you've got a bad referendum in Switzerland, bigoted citizens of some town in Sweden, a law that other European countries dislike in France, an out-of-context factoid about parliament seats in the Netherlands, and a protest in England -- all completely unsourced. And this is supposed to represent the majority of Europe?

Aside from a group of nutcases using Islam to justify their hate, what ties are there between the group who wants to develop this property and "radicals"?

Well... none, unless you honestly believe that Islam is a homogeneous faith with no variation whatsoever.

[Will Robinson]

1) They are telling us they want to push back against the radicals by building this center but actually it will be the radicals who will fund it!

Perhaps I missed it as I haven't been following this thread nearly as close as others, but I have to ask:

Aside from a group of nutcases using Islam to justify their hate, what ties are there between the group who wants to develop this property and "radicals"? Is it the nutcases themselves out in the middle east somewhere claiming that they're funneling the money in?

The reference I made about the radicals funding it was in response to the Ground Zero Islamic Center/Mosque developer's main man and spokesman Feisal Abdul Rauf saying he would take money from Saudi Arabia and Iran to build the center.
Iran is to Islamic terrorism what McDonalds is to shitty hamburgers.

I don't believe Rauf can possibly be so ignorant to not know Iran is the worlds most prolific sponsor of Islamic terrorism and Saudi Arabia makes the top ten list at the very least.

Imagine Fred Phelps blows up a steam bath in San Francisco killing 500 gay men. Then some guy named R.D. Neck from Fred Phelps home town announces he is going to build a church next to the smoldering bath house where fundamentalist Christians bombed and killed 500 gay men...he says he wants to "push back against the radicals" by building his church there.
Then the San Francisco Examiner asks R.D. where he's going to get the money and asks about his trips back to Westboro Kansas and his ties with the community there. He tells the reporter he will not turn down money from Fred Phelps and God Hates Fags.com to build the church and proclaims any gay people who complain about his plans are Christian haters.

Do you think the mainstream talking head media would be coming together to ridicule the gay community for being Christian bashers?!?
Do you think the people here on this board who think I'm wrong for questioning the centers true purpose would be?

[null0010]

Do you think the mainstream talking head media would be coming together to ridicule the gay community for being Christian bashers?!?

Arguable, it depends on the publicity and how loud people scream.

Do you think the people here on this board who think I'm wrong for questioning the centers true purpose would be?

If the land is zoned for a church, then build a church.

[Ferno]

Or maybe he is and isn't nearly as willing to submit to baseless fear-mongering as some of you are.

you got it.

and for the rest of you, what does where i live even matter? how is that even REMOTELY relevant?

this whole topic is completely absurd. it's only meant to stir up controversy and it's WORKING.

next time you guys hear that the sky is falling, you should ask them to prove it instead of buying into it.

alphadog: "Hard hats save ground zero in their own inimical way" what do you think the message is? I mean come on dude, think about it.

[Heretic]

I know that these Muslims had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack,

So you know each and every one of those Muslims personally? You also know what is each of their hearts and minds? You know for a fact they haven't given money to terrorist? I submit you know nothing of the fact.

[null0010]

I know that these Muslims had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack,

So you know each and every one of those Muslims personally? You also know what is each of their hearts and minds? You know for a fact they haven't given money to terrorist? I submit you know nothing of the fact.

Neither do you.

[Heretic]

Never said I did.

[AlphaDoG]

alphadog: "Hard hats save ground zero in their own inimical way" what do you think the message is? I mean come on dude, think about it.

I think the message is that the trade unions in NYC will have final say on whether or not the building is built.

Personally I say let them build it there. No skin off my nose, plus it just makes it easier for the nut jobs to find their targets.

As a side note I suppose if Greg Gutfeld has his way, we'll see just how tolerant the Muslims are.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/1 ... 76699.html

[Top Gun]

I know that these Muslims had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack,

So you know each and every one of those Muslims personally? You also know what is each of their hearts and minds? You know for a fact they haven't given money to terrorist? I submit you know nothing of the fact.

So your natural response when presented with a group of American Muslims attempting to build a cultural center is to assume that they must have some sort of ideological ties to terrorists. Fantastic.

[Heretic]

Damn near gagged on those words you shoved into my mouth