DescentBB

Beat level 18 today, but I didn't realize there'd be a cloaked smelter lurking in the exit tunnel and that I'd have to do him in too

Gotta redo it, then I'll provide my impressions

I went pretty hard on this run, I believe it's 100%, might have missed something. Sorry about the quality, hope you enjoy my flying =P

A nice run, but in my version (Rebirth 0.58.1) I always had the drillers at 2:11 and 2:28, as well as the grey hulks near the blue key roaming by this time so I had to clear those areas first (much earlier than you did), otherwise it makes them very luck based. The starting dual matcens can be cleared by quickly turning between them and shooting the drones before they can react.

Usually the drillers roam in the time stamps you left, this run was smooth, except the blue key ( always have trouble with it haha)

I've been running this level for a long time focusing on improving the control of my ship. I have also been focusing on dog fighting and precision shooting. Level 6 is alot of fun and I use it to warm up, it also acts like a cup of coffee in the morning. By far my favorite level at the moment out of the first 7.

I am moving forward to level 7 now, at first I thought the boss fight would be a pain because of all the drillers and super hulks, but I have noticed there is an invincibility and cloak I can use before entering the red door. Should be an easy level to run.

Nice run! About blue key area, I believe it is more safe to use a way I used in my run.
About roaming, I use 0.58.1 also and if you are fast enough they might stay at their positions aswell as you can see bellow. But it is some kind of a lottery with these drillers. Brown hulk is raoming just rarely to me if I'm fast enough.


In level 7 you don't even need invuln for the end, just a cloak is really good enough.

I am new to this game in terms of running levels on insane, I spent a long time learning how to play on level 6 insane. I will try the rest of the levels now.

This game really is alot of fun when you play on INSANE-MAX settings

Many of these aspects are actually lotteries
In the sense that they're both based on randomness anyway

Some levels are much more predictable than others. That's why levels from D1 where there are few doors and robots can roam almost the entirety of the level are among the toughest - they're also among the most random ones and luck is just as important as skill when attempting them. From my experience with D2 thus far, it doesn't have practically any levels (up to 18 inclusive) where you'd have to struggle with such extreme roaming.

D2 Level 5 has a lot of space for roaming, makes ITSCs quite dangerous there.

I feel like level 6 on descent is very predictable for myself if I take a certain route, if I take a different approach I get different bot behavior

In D1L6 it's actually your psychology that unnecessarily increases its unpredictability. For example the two medium hulks where you get the blue key - most of the time you hesitate to enter the room quickly because you're wondering whether they've already started roaming or not. Same with the colored door branch area, though class 1 drillers are much quicker to jump you. Even if there is a way to predict the robots' behavior in these instances, your fear can still make you falter. That's what makes that level so damn good! I haven't had this sort of expierience with D2 so far, unfortunately.

At least in D2 Apocalyptic Factor you have plenty of roaming robots to play with. Especially I like level 8 death maze with hostages, more than 10 roaming green platforms, cloaked hulks, etc

And the whole level 13 - which is a "remix" of D1 level 19, and incredibly well done! Two similar "floors" and also a very deadly and creepy "death maze" at the end, obviously inspired by red key area in D1 L19.

Both capture this D1 "suspense" feel really well, IMO. I mean, when you are constantly waiting for a green missile platform or a driller to jump on you in the cave mazes.
And also AF levels 2,5,9 are other very good examples.

Don't forget the D1L21 references

@LightWolf: In L8 or in L13 of AF? Or another level that wasn't highlighted?

I've done a couple easy levels Insane cold start no save no death:

Aurora Outpost (D1 level later used in TEW):


And Levels 2/4 of Vertigo (music was added from some other missions, it's in the descriptions):

Too bad Pumo hadn't made the D1 palette at the time when Aurora Outpost was coopted for The Enemy Within. These pink textures really don't look very good in any of D2's palettes.

Or just make a custom texture, like with L23. It didn't bother me though.

Where can I download the D1 palette & how to reference/use it (i.e. set a rl2 to it in DLE)? I don't know how to change palette (PIG/POG) of a rl2 with DLE currently.

kakhome1 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:10 am Or just make a custom texture, like with L23. It didn't bother me though.

Where can I download the D1 palette & how to reference/use it (i.e. set a rl2 to it in DLE)? I don't know how to change palette (PIG/POG) of a rl2 with DLE currently.

There should be a download link in the OP of the Descent 1,5 thread. You just put it and the descent.256 file in your game's main folder, at which point it becomes selectable in DLE. Just go to the Settings tab and you should see the change menu.

POGs are a different thing though, they're level-specific files that contain custom texture data and they were never very robust against PIG palette changes. It's best to recreate your POG after each palette change, or simply not to change palettes any more than necessary.

Have been playing through D1 on insane again (and made it through 19 this time!). Allowing myself some limited use of mid-level saves so I can actually be allowed to learn from mistakes instead of one mistake costing half my lives and dooming my entire run to a slow death, which is what happened the last time.
Anyway, I might add a few thoughts and things that surprised me when I finish, which won't be long now.

@kak Level 13
The only one that wanted to emulate Oberon

Level 19 without dying once was super hard to do, definitely the hardest one in the game alongside 11. It did rely on luck too, since you need to have a cloak from one of the cloaked lifters, otherwise you're screwed. But it did feel super rewarding to play, even though it's probably not as fascinating to watch, since big parts of that level are a waiting game. I really like that aspect of D1 - you barely ever have that in D2 since there are no super-dangerous robots that roam this way - it makes a world of difference in building tension and fear.

I remember the waiting game was there only in the red key maze, when I played it. Because you cannot eliminate robots in it even with the cloak - still too risky, luring from the entrance is what worked best... Other parts require some luck but I did them agressively, maybe I used a different strategy. Probably should find some time to record it - but now I am recording Project Hydro Insane cold-start, on L9 now. Very nasty robots there, although I would not call the mission extremely hard.

On continuous, so far, level 13 and 14 and 24 have been the hardest. I think on my last play it was on 13 where I wound up losing too many lives and fell into that downward spiral that ended on 19.
On 25 now and my biggest surprise is that Heavy Drillers actually are worse than Drillers. :O

13/14/24 are harder than 11/19?

When you're on continuous. I can totally believe that 11/19 are worse on cold start.

I definitely agree with that because on 13 there are many super hulks. On 14 at the start you have to have a small strategy (for me anyway) to get to the energy center and also the tunnels in the yellow area because of all the roaming bots. Same with 24 for that last reason.

Well if a level is easier than another one on a cold start, it'll definitely be easier on continous, right? It's kind of an "every A is also a B" question to me. Then again, maybe having stuff to play with right off the bat can make a bigger difference in some levels than it does in others. Anyway I don't see how having maxed stuff right off the bat could help me beat level 11 wihout dying any easier, since the robots' positions are such that no amount of weaponry can compensate for your vulnerability.

[please delete, accidental double post]

Hmm... the beginning of level 11 was really hard but after eliminating all the medium hulks and cloaked hulks near the start, the rest wasn't so bad. And I think vulcan, fusion and especially leftover megas from the last two mines were part of the reason. If anything gets rid of your vulnerabilities it'll be a well-shoved mega missile.
On 13 the difficulty level doesn't start quite so high but it never ever drops. And it has lots of those heavy drillers which really seem to be the bane of me.

Xfing wrote: ↑Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:21 am Well if a level is easier than another one on a cold start, it'll definitely be easier on continous, right? It's kind of an "every A is also a B" question to me. Then again, maybe having stuff to play with right off the bat can make a bigger difference in some levels than it does in others. Anyway I don't see how having maxed stuff right off the bat could help me beat level 11 wihout dying any easier, since the robots' positions are such that no amount of weaponry can compensate for your vulnerability.

I'm actually not even sure myself if that is true. For an extreme case - imagine a level has not that many dangerous robots but no weapons or missiles in it. But the previous level you could finish with an enormous excess. That level could be quite easy (easier than levels with a standard balance of supplies) on continuous yet harder on cold start if you're forced to do it all with red laser.

The bottom line is cold start depends on how well supplied THAT level allows you to become, while continuous can rely on how well supplied ALL levels so far have allowed you to become.

In fact in a most simple case you could make the very first room of a level impossible on coldstart but put supplies right at the end of the previous level that make it totally trivial on continuous.

Level 19 was by far worse then 13 even on cotinuous playing for me. Btw I actually recently tried speedrun Level 13 . Not optimal, since I found a bit better route/strat, but don't have a time to play and improve it for now.. Still solid I believe, some parts are annoying:).

Marvin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:20 amBtw I actually recently tried speedrun Level 13 .

You just reminded me of a shield power-up I forgot about in the Yellow area!

Xfing wrote: ↑Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:21 am Well if a level is easier than another one on a cold start, it'll definitely be easier on continous, right? It's kind of an "every A is also a B" question to me. Then again, maybe having stuff to play with right off the bat can make a bigger difference in some levels than it does in others. Anyway I don't see how having maxed stuff right off the bat could help me beat level 11 wihout dying any easier, since the robots' positions are such that no amount of weaponry can compensate for your vulnerability.

On a question of difficulty, some points :
1) If you allow to do even a single save or a death the whole thing changes radically. IMO it is only valid to compare the difficulty with same starting weapons (for example - cold start), and without saves and deaths (as a well selected place for saving/dying can make a level a lot easier, you can even reuse cloaking devices).
2) You cannot compare Rebirth and D*X-XL, AI is too different even if you use the settings that make it most similar to Rebirth. And of course if you have smth like DX-XL inventory, this makes the game COMPLETELY different.
3) 100% run, and full rescue requirement make a big difference.
On L11, it is in fact easier with some starting weapons, especially the beginning - I played it both ways. Having quads at the beginning and several spare homers make your way to the blue key much easier; then you get the Plasma cannon and the difference vanishes. But in L19 you get Plasma very quickly, so the difference to the cold start is small - although still much easier to get to the energy center without running out of energy and before roaming on the second floor starts...

level 6 with the all weapons cheats is really easy ( descent 1 )
Fusion Cannon + mega missiles + Smarts make it boringly easy =P

Sum0Beatz wrote: ↑Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:48 pm level 6 with the all weapons cheats is really easy ( descent 1 )
Fusion Cannon + mega missiles + Smarts make it boringly easy =P

You don't have those even on continuous runs...

Oh shoulda clarified I was playing DOS for this run not D2X-XL. Wanted to get as close to the original experience as I could since I had never finished the game on Insane before, and even Rebirth is a little different.
And that is past tense now. I have finally finished.

As for 1), I think the differences between cold-start and continuous are what make it really fascinating. Most games these days don't give you both options. I'm going to play at the level of challenge I find most fun no matter how somebody else likes to play, or thinks I should play. Treating lives as a resource adds another layer of depth into the game especially for the first two-thirds of it.

Lives are meant to be treated as such, and probably the most intended playthrough by the developers would be continuous, no saves. It plays just like arcade games, it both keeps score and gives you limited lives. That would probably be the most fun way to play the game at a drinking party - you've got only as many shots as you have lives, and then the highest score gets beer or something

Too bad that would probably be a bit unwieldy if any decently skilled player was playing, those can accumulate extra lives much faster than they spend them.

Heh, could take a while before the next guy got a turn.
Wouldn't D2 be the better game for that? In D1 I think there's a theoretical limit to the number of points you could get.

Even with all those Insane coldstart runs, continuous play could be more difficult for me - because I usually learn only one level, doubt I could remember 25-30 levels well enough to not make stupid mistakes... And one mistake in any level on Insane could cost you a lot of lives (in D2 potentially all of them). About the intended mode, I doubt that continuous play without saves was intended - it would take many hours to do D1 or D2 that way if you make no big mistakes... Not a kind of arcade play to me, more like an ultra-marathon effort...

The worst kind of mistake is one that costs you the game several levels later.
I used to be sure that there wasn't any single intended way to play the game, but I also used to be sure that songwriters didn't deliberately put one single hidden meaning into their tracks... and then I started writing. But I know Mike and Matt couldn't have played the game on insane from them themselves, so I wonder who did all that intending.

Anyway, anyone here who plays M:TG and knows that I like playing black, knows that that pretty much explains my attitude to lives in this game too.

There wouldn't be a save game feature if they didn't want you to use it, but it's probably reasonable to assume Parallax was designing principally for the scenario where you would be using save games to be able to stop playing the game and resume later, rather than to undo mistakes. Not that the latter scenario would have been a surprise but you can't really design something to be equally challenging for both.