DescentBB

Once again, I read the comments to the news in the U.S. media ... And once again I am convinced that the world of ordinary citizens from different countries, including the U.S. and converge on the opinion that the U.S. only creates problems both for America and for the world. But the political elite opinion even sneezes on the American people. What kind of democracy is this ? Even if the opinion of Americans in America does not mean absolutely nothing ? What kind of democracy , where the American people have no leverage on its own power? I did not call to revolt , I just want to understand what is expressed in American democracy than ideology to attack other countries for the protection of democracy and human rights, while American politicians are exactly the opposite ?

woodchip wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:Russia shouldn't be a concern, at least not militarily. They are a great people just like us. They have the right to be a superpower, just like us. They have a right to defend their borders and national interests, just like us. Both our countries posses enough nuclear weapons to wipe every person off the face of the earth. Do you want to elect a hawkish leader who thinks that we need to get into a shooting match with another nuclear power, all in order to solve piddly military issues? I think not, unless you like the idea of being irradiated, or melted into glass. Especially not over a small country who WANTS to join Russia in the first place.

You sound just like all the wags that said the same thing about Reagan.

So you would do WHAT different? We aren't dealing with a little rogue state, like Iraq or Afghanistan, which by the way, we never really won or finished satisfactorily after all the death and fighting was said and done, even with a Republican at the helm at the time. We're dealing with a nuclear superpower who has the cajones, and the weapons, to stand up to the U.S. If YOU want to get into a shooting match with Putin, all over that piddly little neighbor of theirs, grab your little gun like a good little right winger and charge over there and show Putin who's boss. Personally, this little country that wants to join Russia in the first place isn't worth starting WWIII over.

If you think Reagan's method will work this time, think again. Most Russians are pretty happy with their short little macho president and his actions. No amount of telling people that Putin's an illegal warmonger monster is going to make him fall. They're going to stand behind him in his fight against that evil Capitalist Sovereign Country Invading West this time. Back in Reagan's time, most Russians and their satellite countries were pretty much sick of their stagnant political system and it's leaders, so all Reagan had to do was stand there, thump his chest and tell everyone to rise up and break their Soviet shackles for the better system of the West. Nowadays, he'd be just as stuck dealing with Russia as Obama is. I doubt even Reagan would start a nuclear war, or any type of war for that matter. He'd have be pretty stupid to want to get mired in a conventional war with Russia, which is what would happen. And he'd have to bring back the draft to get enough soldiers to fight that war. Face it, it's a no-win situation for the U.S. right now.

in this day and age, why would ANY major nation be involved in a huge ground war? Doesn't seem to make sense to me, given the amount of remote power a nation like the US could deliver. Sure, some troops have to go in, but only well after 90% of the combatants(and, of course a goodly percentage of the innocent inhabitants) in an area are dead or gone.

TC, what nonsense is this? What a struggle against capitalism? Bugagagaahahaha!!! Putin fights injustice only U.S. action against other countries! I do not understand you specifically demonstrate your blindness, or you really are blind? You (Americans) are like blind religious fanatics. Honestly. Oh, my God, smart people not see obvious things

personally, I don't give a rat's tush about the Crimea, and actually can see the point that Kruschyev(spelling?) arbitrarily tacked in onto Ukraine back in the 1950's, with no regard to the local people's wishes. That said, there is a process for such territorial issues, which were actually followed to a great extent in Chechnya with their issue with Serbia. The complicating factors here seem to be:
1. The arrogant and illegal manner with which Russia intervened.
2. The fact tha NATO has a treaty agreement with Ukraine.
3. The 'temporary' nature of the Ukrainian government after the ouster of the President of that nation(valid or not)


this isn't about Obama, as demonstrated by the fact that Putin acted the same with Bush in office(Georgia). Also, Putin cites the Serbian intervention(Clinton/NATO) as his specific model for justification. Any one who thinks that US saber rattling or the like would have changed matters is a fool. Also, while I've heard the claim made above(twice) that the US administration financed and fostered the overthrow of the Ukrainian president, I asked for proof, or even credible links. I got neither, so we can safely assume that is the usual Obama-hate BS clouding an already murky situation.

For the Americans: if one is truly concerned about the projection of national strength, why on Earth would you support the sort of nitpicky sniping, on a daily basis, which the American right has subjected our duly elected leader to? Kind of tough to lead, when you have to look for knives in the back from the traitorous members of your 'loyal' opposition. Especially, those actions which publicly challenge the legitimacy of that leader.

As I have said, Russia now does not consider it necessary to consider the opinion of the United States. U.S. - is a criminal who deliberately went to the neglect or violation of all legal and moral laws. U.S. view is no longer authoritative. I do not know what efforts should make the United States to restore respect for their opinion. Let's hope that the U.S. political structures are still people who can earn the respect of Russia.

So Russia isn't a criminal for illegally invading and occupying another sovereign country, and then basically buying a win in a referendum held at gunpoint?

Unsuccessful attempt to justify the crimes of the United States.
I understand you're not even remotely imagine how much grief the U.S. brought the peoples of other countries. Ordinary people, you destroyed and mutilated. Blood of hundreds of thousands of civilians on your conscience, which posed no threat to the United States. You have hands stained with blood of innocent people. U.S. does not need to have the right to vote. You should be judged by an international tribunal for crimes against all of humanity, as the Nazis.

Does the name "Joseph Stalin" ring any bells with you? Or, like, the entire history of the 20th century?

Yeah...aside from that last sentence sigma isn't really wrong. This country IS responsible for a lot of death and destruction in our relatively short history. Do the people on this board really think we have the standing to tell another world superpower what they can or cannot do? We can't fight AND win them all.

sigma wrote:As I have said, Russia now does not consider it necessary to consider the opinion of the United States. U.S. - is a criminal who deliberately went to the neglect or violation of all legal and moral laws. U.S. view is no longer authoritative. I do not know what efforts should make the United States to restore respect for their opinion. Let's hope that the U.S. political structures are still people who can earn the respect of Russia.

frankly, if push comes to shove, I suspect it is Russia's opinion that wouldn't matter. Because, technologically speaking, Russia isn't in the same superpower class as us. Now, the question becomes, 'does anyone wish to SEE push come to shove'?

Z.. wrote:Yeah...aside from that last sentence sigma isn't really wrong. This country IS responsible for a lot of death and destruction in our relatively short history. Do the people on this board really think we have the standing to tell another world superpower what they can or cannot do? We can't fight AND win them all.

I'm not denying that we haven't done our share of ★■◆● too, but I'm just incredibly amused by the gall/willful ignorance/indoctrination sigma exhibits here. In what sort of bizarro universe is Russia the party working to protect the rights of other peoples?

TG, one has to realize that Sigma gets a very slanted view of reality. Frankly, we ALL get a slanted view, but in the West, we have the option of seeking out diversity of opinion. He may not have such an option.

sigma wrote:TC, what nonsense is this? What a struggle against capitalism? Bugagagaahahaha!!! Putin fights injustice only U.S. action against other countries! I do not understand you specifically demonstrate your blindness, or you really are blind? You (Americans) are like blind religious fanatics. Honestly. Oh, my God, smart people not see obvious things

sigma, you missed the part where I said "Capitalist Sovereign Country Invading West". You missed the fact that I was agreeing with you, in part.

Plus, a previous president I shall not name did use capitalism to justify his invasion of Iraq. It just didn't happen to be a public justification, although we now know controlling the OIL markets was the true reason.

callmeslick, I was not talking about the championship size pistols. I talked about the moral code of the United States and the need to respect international law and respect the opinion and sovereignty of all legally equal members of the international community. Regardless of whether your neighbor can kick your ass through military force or not. You just confirmed immorality thinking Americans. Do you honestly believe that if what that country does not have enough military force to punish the United States in response to their aggression , then you can do with it whatever you like. Therefore, the U.S. criminal and moral monster , in my opinion . Try to prove otherwise . What the U.S. has done good for all countries other than yourself?

TC, thank you for doing a discount for me. Recently online translators me really hard disappoint .

sigma wrote:callmeslick, I was not talking about the championship size pistols.

well, that's a start, because neither was I.

I talked about the moral code of the United States

a subject you know FAR too little about to have a meaningful discussion. For the same reason, I won't venture into guesswork about Russian moral codes.

....and the need to respect international law and respect the opinion and sovereignty of all legally equal members of the international community. Regardless of whether your neighbor can kick your ass through military force or not.

and, you say this while your home country disrespected all international law and took advantage of disorder in a neighboring state?

You just confirmed immorality thinking Americans. Do you honestly believe that if what that country does not have enough military force to punish the United States in response to their aggression , then you can do with it whatever you like. Therefore, the U.S. criminal and moral monster , in my opinion . Try to prove otherwise . What the U.S. has done good for all countries other than yourself?

a short list for you:
1. The Marshall Plan
2. The restoration of the Japanese economy
3. over 2/3 of all anti-AIDs spending in Africa
4. agricultural, water and energy projects to better self-sufficiency(worldwide, too many nations to list)
5. prevention of high-seas piracy(not completely successful, but greatly so).
6. The Peace Corps
7. Habitat for Humanity
8. dominant cash donors to every worldwide disaster for the past 30 years.
those are just for starters. Any examples of similarly beneficial acts/gestures from your side of the world?

sigma wrote: Therefore, the U.S. criminal and moral monster , in my opinion . Try to prove otherwise . What the U.S. has done good for all countries other than yourself?

.

Ar least the US has not yet had a leader like Stalin. I'm sure the Ukraine's have fond memories of him.

callmeslick wrote:

sigma wrote:callmeslick, I was not talking about the championship size pistols.

well, that's a start, because neither was I.

I talked about the moral code of the United States

a subject you know FAR too little about to have a meaningful discussion. For the same reason, I won't venture into guesswork about Russian moral codes.

....and the need to respect international law and respect the opinion and sovereignty of all legally equal members of the international community. Regardless of whether your neighbor can kick your ass through military force or not.

and, you say this while your home country disrespected all international law and took advantage of disorder in a neighboring state?

You just confirmed immorality thinking Americans. Do you honestly believe that if what that country does not have enough military force to punish the United States in response to their aggression , then you can do with it whatever you like. Therefore, the U.S. criminal and moral monster , in my opinion . Try to prove otherwise . What the U.S. has done good for all countries other than yourself?

a short list for you:
1. The Marshall Plan
2. The restoration of the Japanese economy
3. over 2/3 of all anti-AIDs spending in Africa
4. agricultural, water and energy projects to better self-sufficiency(worldwide, too many nations to list)
5. prevention of high-seas piracy(not completely successful, but greatly so).
6. The Peace Corps
7. Habitat for Humanity
8. dominant cash donors to every worldwide disaster for the past 30 years.
those are just for starters. Any examples of similarly beneficial acts/gestures from your side of the world?

Yeah. And airdrop humanitarian aid mixed in cluster bombs. And the training and creation of an army of terrorists.
Everything you listed can only be called a sop to the needy, but not a real help.
While Russia is building nuclear power plants and helps to develop the extraction of natural resources for the economic development of poor countries. And helps to get free higher education to any person in poor countries. And implementing high technology industry in poor countries. And trains highly qualified specialists to service such a complex infrastructure.
Apparently, it is becoming pointless discussion. Americans do not want to recognize and analyze their mistakes to avoid repeating them in the future. You prefer to ignore the issues that relate to America, but you instantly ready to argue themselves hoarse when you indicate your mistakes.

I'd say Sigma want to ignore Mother Russia's mistakes as well.

Obviously Sigma forgets that the Soviet Union was the main destabilizing force in Afghanistan. Had they not opened the door for the 10 years they were there, most likely would have been much more difficult for the US to get involved. That's what I got against Sigma's arguments. Propaganda is never outright falsity, it is just one-sided truth.

woodchip wrote:I'd say Sigma want to ignore Mother Russia's mistakes as well.

Certainly Let us continue to discuss Russia, Stalin's genocide, but not outrage the U.S..
EDIT:
Americans ordinary people in the end. If you kill them, they will cry. When they see a smile, they smile back. As everyone ... We do see that the Americans could be normal people, if they could get rid of the complex rich boy, and colonizer. It's too bad that the U.S. have not had war. (God forbid you to find out what it is). Otherwise, you would have realized that no amount of money and political influence have no meaning. Otherwise, you would understand what it means when every citizen is ready to give his life for the sake of the freedom of his country. Damn U.S. policy.

flip wrote:Obviously Sigma forgets that the Soviet Union was the main destabilizing force in Afghanistan. Had they not opened the door for the 10 years they were there, most likely would have been much more difficult for the US to get involved. That's what I got against Sigma's arguments. Propaganda is never outright falsity, it is just one-sided truth.

And why do you keep trying to put on a show of consequence, but always try to hide the reason?

sigma wrote:

flip wrote:Obviously Sigma forgets that the Soviet Union was the main destabilizing force in Afghanistan. Had they not opened the door for the 10 years they were there, most likely would have been much more difficult for the US to get involved. That's what I got against Sigma's arguments. Propaganda is never outright falsity, it is just one-sided truth.

And why do you keep trying to put on a show of consequence, but always try to hide the reason?

Sigma, I just gave you a list of VERY significant accomplishments which the US has done for other nations. And, in one fell swoop, you dismiss them all as 'sops for the poor', and then list a handful of things that the Russians have assisted others with(all of which, the US has done, and more so). If you wish to merely focus on your warped view of the US, and refuse to acknowledge the vast amount of good the US has done, which FAR,FAR outweighs the bad(which, I admit, we have done as well), this exchange with you is useless. You are close-minded, fueled by anti-American propaganda, and in deep denial of reality.

As I have said, Russia does not anti-American propaganda for over 20 years. This simply is not necessary. Enough to know the story and read the news.
U.S. has just used to scream about anti-American propaganda every time they commit another crime, or when they are justifiably criticized.
As for useful things that made the United States. People who cynically used the holy principles of democracy to justify military operations, bombings, massacres of civilians in other countries using mercenaries, you have no confidence. And even more, there can be no respect.

sigma wrote:As I have said, Russia does not anti-American propaganda for over 20 years.

yet, to this day, citizens such as yourself spout the silliest crap about the US. Propaganda, or simple lack of insight?

oh, and your news IS propaganda, if you can draw the conclusions you do from 'news'.

The difference is that the American news are very different from the Russian news. As I've said before. In your news you provide information in the notoriously anti-Russian interpretation. While both Russian news provides only facts that everyone can analyze independently.

sigma wrote:The difference is that the American news are very different from the Russian news. As I've said before. In your news you provide information in the notoriously anti-Russian interpretation. While both Russian news provides only facts that everyone can analyze independently.

Sorry you believe that sigma. You're being delusional. There are no "facts" in the press. News agencies and the press always slant the news based on either governmental or corporate influences or their political, personal, or their national beliefs. It goes on in the West and it sure as hell is going on in Russia. That's why most people who don't like to be spoon fed someone's opinions and lies look at all the available information out there for their news, so they can parse the nonsense or lies out of the whole mess of world politics.

Also, Putin just shut down the TV stations in Ukraine. No dissenters in that country can challenge the pro-Russian authorities now. That's not free speech, it's a calculated propaganda move by Putin to slant the news in his favor.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/0 ... 97517.html

Even in the U.S., we have an English-based Russian TV network (I checked, it's even listed on my Cable provider). An anchor just recently quit, on the job, all in protest of Putin's iron hand.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/ ... 2F20140306

I talked about the fact that the American media is used in the content of the news turns of phrase , the abundance of adjectives , etc. , which clearly distort and impose the formation of opinions of Americans , directing them against Russia , and at the same time justifying nespravdelivo U.S. actions under such stupid excuses and justifications that it is impossible to read without laughing .
As for Putin . I have said a hundred times , that sooner or later other countries will and will use American political harsh methods . With regard to the Crimea , Putin showed it very gently to the United States. Alluding to the fact that he can act even tougher. Agree, because the U.S. provoked a reaction to their reckless behavior.
What is your mania constantly discuss Putin? The more you try to annoy Russia, so much the worse for you. And you still with the tenacity of a blunt, continue to try to eat the cactus.

Americans question their leaders all the time. People on this board make fun of and deride our president all the time too, who by the way, doesn't have the power to throw them prison for doing so. I'm very thankful for that freedom. That's what a leader in a free country has to deal with and tolerate, dissension and derision. Do you ever question Putin? Are you or any other Russians afraid to question or criticize Putin? Like it or not, Putin is the face of Russia.

Also, what do you think of Putin shutting down the Ukrainian TV networks? Doesn't Putin tolerate dissenting political views? Is he that thin skinned? When a leader can't or won't tolerate opposing views, has absolute power and suppresses the press and imprisons his opponents, that leader by definition is a dictator, or an autocrat.

sigma, can you put a picture of Putin on TV in Russia, like this: Put a rifle scope crosshairs over the picture so it looks like you are looking at Putin through a high powered rifle scope... and then put the words: Sniper Wanted across the bottom of the picture as if you are asking for a sniper to shoot Putin? Can you do that over there?!?

We can do it here with our president and it barely gets a reaction from the Secret Service, they don't even go talk to the people who did it...we don't see them locked in prison...etc.

You wouldn't know how to be free in the ways we are over here. You would most likely be one of those guys who goes back to Russia because you can't function when so much of your existence and fate is solely in your own hands.

What Pussy Riot did over there got them in prison. Over here it would barely get them a small story in the news if at all.

Because Russian and Americans different mentality . If the authorities in the United States allows as many Americans criticize themselves and draw on their satirical serge politicians , being fully convinced that Americans will not take any concrete action to influence power than chatter , in Russia all the way around . In Russian criticism of the government is always perceived as a call to rebellion . Which instantly can turn into a revolution. Remember the words of Alexander Pushkin : " Do not bring God to see Russian riot - senseless and merciless . Those who plot we impossible coups, or young and do not know our people, or too hard-hearted people , whom fellow alien mite , and its neck penny" . This expression is valid today, actually . Power feels great mood of the people . If the perturbation of the Russian people is true power is always to make concessions . But if the government knows that "the indignation of the people " is a result of the influence of foreign agents for loosening of stability in the country , then the government severely suppresses such provocations . And believe me , the Russian people sympathetic to such methods .

Sigma, what you are saying, perhaps without knowing it, is Russia is oppressed by their government much more than we Americans are by ours.

You gave the Russian governments reason for it and you tell us your countrymen agree with that situation.
But then, knowing that, how can we believe you when you claim you and your fellow citizens aren't fed a steady stream of propaganda?!?
After all, how could you stop it or even question it since you have accepted the propagandist's reason for not allowing you to do so!

Which country is more likely to be led by liars? The one that the leaders don't dare let the people speak out for fear of revolution is the one I pick as the answer.

You were annoyed when placed Russian missile system in Cuba? You know that the placement of NATO bases near Russia irritates us even more? You know perfectly well that this is a dangerous tactic. But you absolutely can not in any way influence your politicians . Even if you know that the current U.S. policy is a real threat to the security of your country. You can explain to me why the U.S. is creating a tense situation that even ordinary meteorite hit in any major Russian or American metropolis can be seen as the beginning of a nuclear attack ?

sigma wrote:You were annoyed when placed Russian missile system in Cuba? You know that the placement of NATO bases near Russia irritates us even more? You know perfectly well that this is a dangerous tactic. But you absolutely can not in any way influence your politicians . Even if you know that the current U.S. policy is a real threat to the security of your country. You can explain to me why the U.S. is creating a tense situation that even ordinary meteorite hit in any major Russian or American metropolis can be seen as the beginning of a nuclear attack ?

In Cuba it was Soviet aggressive tactics that made us react. NATO is the same reaction, to the same aggressive tactics...

So you haven't shown a contrast like you think you have. You have, in both examples, merely highlighted Soviet aggression as the cause for a problem.

Will Robinson wrote:What Pussy Riot did over there got them in prison. Over here it would barely get them a small story in the news if at all.

we've suffered through Yoko Ono for,what, decades?

sigma wrote:You can explain to me why the U.S. is creating a tense situation that even ordinary meteorite hit in any major Russian or American metropolis can be seen as the beginning of a nuclear attack ?

no such feeling here.....then again, we don't frequently get meteorites to the point of calling them 'ordinary'.......

Will Robinson wrote:

sigma wrote:You were annoyed when placed Russian missile system in Cuba? You know that the placement of NATO bases near Russia irritates us even more? You know perfectly well that this is a dangerous tactic. But you absolutely can not in any way influence your politicians . Even if you know that the current U.S. policy is a real threat to the security of your country. You can explain to me why the U.S. is creating a tense situation that even ordinary meteorite hit in any major Russian or American metropolis can be seen as the beginning of a nuclear attack ?

In Cuba it was Soviet aggressive tactics that made us react. NATO is the same reaction, to the same aggressive tactics...

So you haven't shown a contrast like you think you have. You have, in both examples, merely highlighted Soviet aggression as the cause for a problem.

I see othing you not want to hear anyone but themselves.
Leopard cannot change its spots.

"The main U.S. strategic policy remains unchanged, no matter who won the presidency."
Vladimir Putin

In Russian criticism of the government is always perceived as a call to rebellion . Which instantly can turn into a revolution.

That is one seriously fucked-up society you live in over there, brother.

That's why I appreciate our form of government here Sigma. All you need is to be proactive, remove lifers from Congress and then send people from your hometown up. Gotta make room first so for the life of me I can't figure out why people keep voting the same people over and over for years. They deserve what they get. Revolution in a modern industrial nation is sure to end in martial law, but we have recourse in this nation. It's very simple, don't be swayed on social issues that can only be reversed by the Courts anyways and emotions and simply remove anyone that has been there for 8 years or longer. That makes room at the top for local politicians and keeps anybody from staying in long enough to do too much damage. People that don't vote locally, state and federal deserve to be slaves and I would almost say it is a criminal offense not to. It should at least be compulsory. I don't think it matters who you vote in, as long as you keep voting them out.

Honestly the best solution to that would be hard term limits for members of Congress, as with the presidency, and the joy of it is that our current system allows us to amend the Constitution and make that happen. (Now the odds of actually making it happen are a whole other story...) Just how many years has Putin bounced from one head government position to another, now?