DescentBB

Posted: **Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:47 pm**

Well, I'm thru with this thread now since it's been taken over by the creationists.
See you in the mines!
Bettina

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:11 am**

Ok. New page, new start. It seems my arguments are now bordering on the absurd. Impotence? WTF? I've got to stop posting at 5 in the morning.

Top Gun, I find your arguments are making more sense than mine.

Time to fall back and regroup. I'll concede the victory to you on all points from the previous page. (Edit: Well, maybe not ALL points. But I'll accept that with regards to the world of the Christian God, reproduction and free will are meaningful and perhaps even essential components of the human design.)

So now, if you'll allow me, I have a few (I hope better) ideas to throw into the ring.

So...

I've been proceeding under the assumption that all of our problems are of our own making. Crime, war, even starvation to a large extent are problems we could theoretically have avoided. Those can be blamed on "free will" (Again assuming you believe in free will. I still want to get into that.. but not just yet.), and our human mistakes or misdeeds.

I realized I have completely overlooked the many problems that we are not responsible for, but that still cause much suffering:

Diseases, volcanos, hurricanes, tornados, floods... any form of "natural disaster".

Allowing us to make mistakes is one thing. I'll agree that our lives would be less meaningful if we could not. Yet, "natural disasters" are not caused by mistakes we make.

If you believe God causes these as punishment for some misdeeds, then I submit that THOSE are indeed spiteful acts.

If you believe these are simply functions of the world God made for us, then I submit that God made a major mistake in the design of the world. That, or he built a world that would routinely torture us and THAT is nothing if not sadistic.

Either way, God should have the power to stop these problems. So.. Why do they exist?

--

I'm working on another take on the "why allow (human) evil" issue, but that'll have to wait. For now let me just put out the natural disaster question for debate.

Edit2: That idea didn't pan out so, nevermind. I mean, I'll post my thoughts if anyone really wants to hear them, but they do nothing to support my side of this debate as I've already thought of a counter-argument.

--

Bettina, I'm sorry this thread is not holding your interest. I would eventually like to return to the original question "is there a God", as I have some points in mind which I would like to discuss regarding the principles and philosophies behind theistic and atheistic beliefs. I think you might find some of it interesting, but at the moment I'm still having fun with this "why is there evil" debate.

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2004 11:57 am**

Scottris:Don't forget meteors that destroy 90% of all life on the planet with no warning. Those are kind of a nasty Sword of Damocles to have hanging around too. Been 60 million years since the last one so the next one could be due any day now.

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:36 pm**

Indeed.

Also, why would God make the physics of the atom function in such a way as to allow for the creation of such devastating weapons? Granted, nuclear energy provides a good source of power but surely it would have been within God's power to create an energy source that's a little harder to blow up. Humans may find ways to kill each other regardless, but why make it easier for them?

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2004 2:22 pm**

In light of 6 pages of debate, flaming and derailment; I think the more pertinant question is:
"Why is there being a God important to you the individual?"

Most here will say "It isn't". But it Is the question for which most answers have been given here.

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:00 pm**

Given the subject matter, I thought the flaming was quite low. Barely even candlelight level.

Most here will say "It isn't". But it Is the question for which most answers have been given here.

Huh? If most of the answers here are for that question, why are you asking it again?

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:53 pm**

Diseases, volcanos, hurricanes, tornados, floods... any form of "natural disaster".

Allowing us to make mistakes is one thing. I'll agree that our lives would be less meaningful if we could not. Yet, "natural disasters" are not caused by mistakes we make.

If you believe God causes these as punishment for some misdeeds, then I submit that THOSE are indeed spiteful acts.

If you believe these are simply functions of the world God made for us, then I submit that God made a major mistake in the design of the world. That, or he built a world that would routinely torture us and THAT is nothing if not sadistic.

Either way, God should have the power to stop these problems. So.. Why do they exist?

I'll take a stab at answering that. I think that wanders into the realm of "we don't know." (Actually, any specific case of evil done to someone who doesn't seem to deserve it would qualify, too, from a victom's prespective.)

1) There is a matter of perspective to be considered. Eternally, God is just. So, in an eternal matter, God will never allow someone who doesn't deserve it go to hell. (and vice-versa) In the perspective of eternity, a "short" spell of pain on this earth is nothing.
2) Some natural disasters are a function of earth's self maintenence. For example: Fairly recently, botanical people have discovered that forest fires actually help the forests flourish, by getting rid of the old vegitation, the new generation has more fertile soil, and more sunlight.

I was going to come up with more points, but I couldn't, really. Discussions about why bad things happen on this earth have their inherent problems, though. First, they assume that everything operates on a cause-effect basis. That assumption isn't necessarily right- what if there isn't an answer to why? Second, alot of times they make the assumption that all pain is evil. Again, not necessarily true. Finally, the people who struggle with this the most seem to be those who already blame God for something, and are simply trying to justify it. Logically, it's much easier to just deny God's existence than to peg Him as evil.

Bettina: I know you're probably not reading this, but I'll say it anyways. There are 2 ideas that you have the bother me. 1) You claim that God sees evil where there is innocence. That's wrong. God sees evil where there is evil. You seem to be claiming that you have never sinned- I can tell you that that is wrong, too. That launches me into the second thing. 2) You assume that anything bad that God allows is some form of punishment. That isn't right, either. Things arn't that cause-effect in nature. I disagree with Shoku here, we are not guilty by anything but our own sin. We inhereted a sinful nature (the tendancy to sin) from Adam, but God doesn't judge our sinful nature. God judges sin. The only thing God will judge you on is what you did. What God promises is eternal justice. What happens on this earth happens, yet it isn't everything. It doesn't last forever. During the short time that we are on this earth we will see lots of unjust thing happen, but if we asked for immediate justice, we would be calling for our own doom. So, while we wait for God to bring justice about, lot of bad things happen.

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:25 pm**

I'll take a stab at answering that. I think that wanders into the realm of "we don't know."

Indeed, I'm sure these are difficult questions which mankind has wrestled with for centuries without finding clear answers. Certainly, I'm not expecting to find all the answers here, but I am enjoying the debate. I think it's good to think about these things, even if we reach no conclusions.

Some natural disasters are a function of earth's self maintenence.

Indeed they are. I find it odd however, that an all powerful God could not have designed the world with better ways of maintaining itself.

Finally, the people who struggle with this the most seem to be those who already blame God for something, and are simply trying to justify it.

That may often be the case. For the record however, in my case this is not so. While I was raised in a Christian (specifically Protestant) family and attended church services regularly throughout most of my childhood, it is fair to say that I never believed in God anymore than I believed in Santa Clause. There is much about this world which I do not like, however in order to blame God I would first have to believe he existed.

Logically, it's much easier to just deny God's existence than to peg Him as evil.

That seems a fair statement. In my opinion however, it is not only easier but it is also fundamentally more rational to assume God doesn't exist than it is to explain how God could exist and be both all powerful and all good.

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:51 pm**

I would also like to add...

There is a matter of perspective to be considered.

True. Although it may not have been apparent from what I've said, I do realize I am looking at the world from a very narrow perspective. I am under no illusion that I know The Truth. Try as I might, my very nature denies me access to the "whole story". Nevertheless, I would like to believe that my assesment of the world is as valid as can be reasonably expected of a human.

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:56 pm**

scottris wrote:Given the subject matter, I thought the flaming was quite low. Barely even candlelight level.

Very true.

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:15 pm**

scottris wrote:
Most here will say "It isn't". But it Is the question for which most answers have been given here.
Huh? If most of the answers here are for that question, why are you asking it again?

Not to suggest that I don't find it an interesting question. I don't see where anyone has really answered it however.

For me, the answer would be "it isn't". Although I would be interested to hear from anyone with a more interesting answer.

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2004 9:26 pm**

snoopy wrote: I disagree with Shoku here, we are not guilty by anything but our own sin. We inherited a sinful nature (the tendency to sin) from Adam, but God doesn't judge our sinful nature. God judges sin. The only thing God will judge you on is what you did.

According to scripture (Jewish and Christian), sin is lawlessness, a rejection of God's standards, and it's effects leave those involved in an imperfect (sinful) state.

The book of Romans says quite plainly (although a bit wordy) that all men (and women) are in a lawless state, that it is our nature - "through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." (That's what I was referring to when I said we are all guilty.) " . . .death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam, who bears a resemblance to him that was to come (Jesus). But it is not with the gift as it is with the trespass. . .For the judgment resulted from one trespass in condemnation, but the gift resulted from many trespasses in a declaration of righteousness. For if by the trespass of one man death ruled as king through that one, much more will those who receive the abundance of the undeserved kindness and the free gift of righteousness rule as kings in life through the one person, Jesus Christ. So, then, as through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation, likewise also through one act of justification the result to men of all sorts is a declaring of them righteous for life. For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one person (Jesus) many will be constituted righteous." (Romans 5:12-19)

In other words, all humans are imperfect as a result of our forefather's decision to reject God's guidance. Because of this we all die. The apostle John mentioned two types of sin; sin that results in death and sin that does not result in death. Because of Jesus' sacrifice, the sin we inherited from Adam is forgotten by God. If we accept that ransom and get our lives in harmony with God's will, death will not be victorious over us. However, as stated in the book of Hebrews: "For if we practice sin willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left." (Hebrews 10:26)

So, we are judged on two levels: level one is the sin we got from Adam, of which we are all guilty, and for which God sent Jesus to be a ransom sacrifice to wash away. Level two is sin we commit, not because we are imperfect, but because we knowingly want to do it, as Adam knowingly turned from God. This type of sin can lead to total rejection by God, but only God can rightfully judge who among us deserve such a condemnation.

Posted: **Sun Nov 07, 2004 10:18 pm**

not that i'm a great poster child...

www.buddhanet.net

"the way it is"... i'm not sure if i see the world "accurately" but at least i didn't need to use rape, torture tactics, and greed to find it.

Posted: **Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:17 am**

So Cops, you're off the hormone fillies and riding down sources to "copy and paste"

"According to scripture (Jewish and Christian)"Shoku

Thats nice and all, but you are excluding Cops's Buddhist's, Hindu's Vedic and of course the Islamic Koran. So which group has the real skinny?

Posted: **Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:02 pm**

Thanks for the link Cops. I'm a dabbler but always glad to take a step down the path.

Posted: **Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:13 pm**

wait now woody.
i would also call myself a "dabbler". i have a lot of issues that conflict with the buddhist way of life. i'm working on these things... the main issue is "right speech"... which i fail at miserably if you include typing on the internet.

oh yea and the buddha was a human being not a god.

Posted: **Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:21 pm**

scottris wrote:I've been proceeding under the assumption that all of our problems are of our own making. Crime, war, even starvation to a large extent are problems we could theoretically have avoided. Those can be blamed on "free will" (Again assuming you believe in free will. I still want to get into that.. but not just yet.), and our human mistakes or misdeeds.

I realized I have completely overlooked the many problems that we are not responsible for, but that still cause much suffering:

Diseases, volcanos, hurricanes, tornados, floods... any form of "natural disaster".

Allowing us to make mistakes is one thing. I'll agree that our lives would be less meaningful if we could not. Yet, "natural disasters" are not caused by mistakes we make.

If you believe God causes these as punishment for some misdeeds, then I submit that THOSE are indeed spiteful acts.

If you believe these are simply functions of the world God made for us, then I submit that God made a major mistake in the design of the world. That, or he built a world that would routinely torture us and THAT is nothing if not sadistic.

Either way, God should have the power to stop these problems. So.. Why do they exist?

I don't know if you missed it, but I think I gave a pretty thorough response to this whole line of thought on page 3. Though I despise playing philosophical games, I understand that there's a legitimate question to be asked as well. Though my post is intended to answer the question, you can dig philosophical answers out of it, too.

The post was this one. Start where I reply to Bettina. The most philosophically relevant pieces of my post, I will quote below. But I also give some broader answers--in the context of reason and faith--in my original post, and I think they are better ones. So if you're seriously asking the question, go read my original post. (On the other hand, if you're just messing around with logic, my answers below should be sufficient.)

I wrote:
I know that this world isn't the end-product of everything God's doing. Life here is temporary, but life in heaven is eternal; this world exists to set up that one, I think. And I suspect that a lot of things that are evil in this life accomplish good for the next one. For some things, I know that's the case--people who cause me pain often also cause me to draw closer to God, and that's actually much more important. Pain's just temporary.

I know that part of what God's trying to accomplish is to create mature, good followers, and ultimately a good people for himself. (Someone I saw recently put it--"What's wrong with the world? Nothing. It was meant to be a proving ground for God's people, and it's serving that purpose quite well. What's wrong with the people on the other hand...") And I know that evil is a necessary counterpart to strong, mature goodness. You can't have forgiveness without injury, you can't have compassion without grievous pain, and you can't have courage without danger. Heroes don't come from idyllic places and peaceful times, they show up in the midst of war, pain, and grand evil. You know how children can't mature if their parents are over-protective? I think people are the same way. I think we need to experience some pain and evil--and a lot of it--to become the sort of people God means us to be.

I know that part of what God plans for evil is to eventually destroy it. The Bible even says that somewhere--God has created everything, even the wicked for the "day of evil"--i.e., to take vengeance. I know that evil won't endure forever, and that in the end God plans to enact justice out of the mess that the world's left in. The Bible says that a lot--the Lord will repay. Whatever damage evil does, he promises to one day make it right. And I know that several times the Bible hints that God gives evil a chance to grow, to flourish, to absolutely prove itself evil before he steps in and destroys it.

Also, Jeff250 cited a nice, direct response specifically to the 'natural occurances' question, on page 4. His post is this one.

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:40 am**

My problem with the "pain brings one closer to God" principle along with a lot of the rationalizations for the suffering in this world is that they seem to presuppose that the sufferer has knowledge of Christ's existence and is rational enough to make decisions based on faith.
Some people are stupid. Some people are ignorant. Some people are too young to be either. None of these conditions have any effect on the quantity or quality of suffering.
It is the suffering of the innocent that doesn't make any sense, those never offered any knowledge of the supposed salvation that awaits from their acceptance of Christ into their life.
In the past threads Drakona your answer to the suffering of the innocent could be distilled down to "Its a mystery". You believe in the existence of the Christian God without reservation and so you accept that there must be a reason that this suffering exists and you use Christian texts and philosophy to support your belief. Approaching the same problem from a different belief system and a different philosophy can give a different but equally believable (to some) answer. It is just a matter of faith not proof.
Back to the question: Is there a God.
My answer- Only if you believe there is.

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:01 am**

Yeah, and that's why I hate approaching the question from a 'logic games' perspective. Logically speaking, my only goal on the question of suffering is to prove that it's possible for God to be just and loving, and the world to be the way it is. And that's child's play. The innocent suffer? Nobody's innocent; others benefit; Satan did it; God will make it right in the end; the innocent who suffered recieve the greatest rewards in heaven.

It's the real question that's interesting--the gut level "How could God do this?" And you're right that that comes on faith--for the person who has faith, no evil will shake it; for the person that has none, the minor suffering of a cat is insurmountable evidence that there is no God.

The thing to realize is that that's rational. It's rational, for people who believe in God for other reasons, to not be bothered by the suffering in the world. They don't have to explain it, because God keeps his own counsel about what he's doing. That's really the point of interacting with the argument--to give some good indications of what God might be doing, what he's told us he's doing, and the basis on which we trust him to be good.

My full response was made in that context. Maybe I'll just quote the whole thing so people can interact with that.

I wrote: The world is and ugly place, and it's an old argument that goes from that to declaring that God either isn't there or isn't worth talking to. There's a difference between having the explanation for a bit of evil, and making one up.

Some bits, we have the explanation. Some 2000 years ago, a man who was nothing worse than a moral teacher--an innocent man--was killed in an awfully painful way. By any standard you choose, that's evil. And yet it doesn't bother anyone wondering if God exists--at least, not people with some background in Christian thinking--because they know the explanation. He died to save all of humanity. There was a greater, good purpose behind the evil, and furthermore we know what it is because God has told us.

Some other things, we have no explanation. When a villiage is overrun by a cruel army that terrorizes the population, literally killing babies in their mothers' arms, we don't know why. When a hurricane strikes and destroys a sweet old woman's husband, home, and livelihood, we don't know why. When an old man strips a young boy naked, turns him loose in the woods, and hunts him like an animal with dogs and a gun, we don't know why. When a convict escapes from prison and terrorizes, rapes, and eventually kills a young couple on their honeymoon, we don't know why. Those of us who believe in God know there must be some reason--and often the temptation is to make things up--but we don't really know, for a lot of things.

If you ask me, free will only gets you so far. People do some pretty warped things to each other--sometimes you wonder if it's even worth free will. But then above and beyond that, some people are just unlucky. What about those who burn to death in forest fires, caused by lighting--humanity hardly caused that! And why did God make humans the way they are, anyway, if they're so prone to being evil? And what about Satan--didn't God make him, too? And what about hell? Didn't God make that--and doesn't he send people there?

A lot of people think they have answers for this stuff, and a lot of those answers are just speculation. Most stuff, we don't actually know why God allowed it--because he hasn't told us. So we guess. I sure don't claim to know everything, but there are some things I do know.

I know that this world isn't the end-product of everything God's doing. Life here is temporary, but life in heaven is eternal; this world exists to set up that one, I think. And I suspect that a lot of things that are evil in this life accomplish good for the next one. For some things, I know that's the case--people who cause me pain often also cause me to draw closer to God, and that's actually much more important. Pain's just temporary.

I know that part of what God's trying to accomplish is to create mature, good followers, and ultimately a good people for himself. (Someone I saw recently put it--"What's wrong with the world? Nothing. It was meant to be a proving ground for God's people, and it's serving that purpose quite well. What's wrong with the people on the other hand...") And I know that evil is a necessary counterpart to strong, mature goodness. You can't have forgiveness without injury, you can't have compassion without grievous pain, and you can't have courage without danger. Heroes don't come from idyllic places and peaceful times, they show up in the midst of war, pain, and grand evil. You know how children can't mature if their parents are over-protective? I think people are the same way. I think we need to experience some pain and evil--and a lot of it--to become the sort of people God means us to be.

I know that part of what God plans for evil is to eventually destroy it. The Bible even says that somewhere--God has created everything, even the wicked for the "day of evil"--i.e., to take vengeance. I know that evil won't endure forever, and that in the end God plans to enact justice out of the mess that the world's left in. The Bible says that a lot--the Lord will repay. Whatever damage evil does, he promises to one day make it right. And I know that several times the Bible hints that God gives evil a chance to grow, to flourish, to absolutely prove itself evil before he steps in and destroys it.

I know that the pain in the world makes God sad, too--so whatever reasons he has for allowing it, they must be good ones. Jesus was overflowing with compassion, and constantly healing and taking care of people. He wept at the death of his friend. In the old testament, God mourns with giant tears over the broken state of his people--brokenness that his own punishment has brought on them. I know God mourns.

There are other things I could say--things indeed that professional philosophers say, or that I say when I'm feeling more philosophical, and there's one thing these explanations have in common: they answer the question and still feel empty. Sure, it logically explains things well enough if evil could exist to make good people greater, or if God will one day make it right. That doesn't help when you're facing some very real bit of it and wondering, why does there have to be so much of it? Look at this child born with half a brain and diseased, who will live a short, painful, meaningless life and die. God will someday make that right? HOW?

The philosophical answers don't answer because the question isn't looking for a philosophical answer. And that's because the question isn't about reason after all, even though everybody seems to think it is. It's about faith.

I have a wonderful husband who I know is faithful to me. How do I know he is faithful to me? Because I know what sort of person he is, and I know he has always been faithful to me. So if I see him flying around with a pilot named "ILuvBettina," I don't wonder if he's flirting with another girl. He flies away for a night and day to go to his old best friend's wedding, and I don't wonder what he's doing while he's away. If I know he spends a lot of time alone with his (female) boss, is very good friends with her, and talks to her about a lot of serious things, I don't wonder if there's something between them. And why don't I? Because I have faith in him.

Faith is trusting in something that deserves to be trusted. I may not rationally know why my husband chooses the pilot names he does. I may not rationally have any way to know what my husband is doing when he's out of town. I may not rationally ever be able to determine the content of my husband's conversations with his boss. But I don't have to rationally know because I trust him--and furthermore he deserves that trust.

You see, a question like this isn't about having a rational explanation for everything. It's about believing that the person is trustworthy. To a woman whose husband has already cheated on her, every email, every lunch break, every contact with other women is suspect and requires a rational explanation. To a woman who has faith in her husband, he could disappear all night and though she would worry about his safety, she would never worry about his faithfulness. The difference is not that one knows his reasoning and the other doesn't. The difference is faith.

For me, that's where the only satisfying and peaceful answer lies. I may not know why God allowed a small child to be beaten, raped, and killed. But I know he is the God who mourns with us when we suffer. I know he's the same God who loves us so much that we can't hurt him enough to drive him away. I know he's the God who embraced Israel, mourned her hurts, desperately desired a great future for her, and watched her continue to fail and hurt him. I know he's the God who gladly laid down the life of his own son to save those who hated him. I know he's the God who speaks of rejoicing over his people with dancing, prizing them like a treasure, and quieting them with his love. And I know he's trying to accomplish some grand things in the world--and that the process often causes him pain.

Is that enough for me to trust that he knows what he's doing? That my own petty hurts and gripes are worth whatever he's trying to accomplish? That all the suffering in the world will some day be made right?

I think so. Some people don't. I say it depends on how well you know God, but for me, with what I've seen, I have enough faith in him. I am very, very sure he is a passionate, compassionate, and loving God. So what I don't know, and what I can't explain doesn't haunt me. Does it haunt you? Then you have a choice. You can simply decide that the pain you see is bad enough that faith in God is unjustified--it's just gone so far that he can't be good. If you go that route, you stop looking for answers from God, and start looking for answers elsewhere. Or you can try to learn more about God, try to understand him, and see if the faith he inspires outweighs the pain you've seen. I guess I personally took the second route, and I came back with faith in God, but my word is only good for so much. And my world may be different than yours--so even if you go that way, your mileage may vary.

But there's my answer for you. There are philosophical answers, and they're good for certain things--but in the end, it's about faith. For the believer, that's where peace on the topic comes from.

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:40 am**

Is there a God? If there is why is there so much suffering?

The above questions have been asked for centuries. The responses have been much like the ones here on the DBB - full of hopeful or slanderous opinion, propelled by human philosophy and vulgar logic.

From a Biblical perspective the answers are quite simple. Yes, there is a God; the evidence is clearly seen from the things made (the Earth, the life on it, and the Universe). Suffering is the result of this process: Satan said God was a liar, implying that Man did not need God. -> Man rejected God -> God, being very stable in his position, allowed man the opportunity to live without his oversight, to see if man could be successful on his own; God has taken the back-seat to allow man to steer his own course. God said to Job (and therefore to all of us): "If your own right hand can save you, then I myself will applaud you." And yet God has always extended his hand to those of us who recognize the wisdom of adhering to his direction. Proverbs 27:11 "Be wise my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is taunting me." The taunter is Satan, who also was allowed the opportunity to proceed without God's guidance to prove the validity of his accusations.

When a child rebels and walks out on their parents, thinking they know better, believing they no longer need their parents' guidance, the best thing a parent can do is to allow the child to leave, yet always making room for their return. If the child is successful on their own, the parents should applaud them, if the child is not successful, the loving parent should welcome them home and provide any needed support. Whatever happens, it can never be said that the child was never given an opportunity to go it alone.

Posted: **Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:51 pm**

bet51987 wrote:
So, now that god has two aliases, Jesus and Holy Spirit, to keep his true identity hidden, I can only guess that God is a bighead too.......does this sound like a guy who created a universe?

Betty,

There is a lot of mis-information here, but thats easy it can be confusing. I can tell you that the Holy trinity is one of the most difficult concepts to grasp. I likin it to holding 3 candles together, although all are on fire, it is all the same flame. My Pastor asked me when I had the same question, if I felt I had a soul, A:Yes; Do I have a child, A:Y. Then I am also a Father, Son and have a spirit.

As to the other stuff, Jesus was sent here to die for us. Nothing backfired, "For God so loved the earth he gave his only begotton Son" it was and is all part of the plan.

-Phlegm

DescentBB

Is There a God?