DescentBB

TRUEpiiiicness wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:36 pm Thanks for the review.

Quick question, which puzzle did you find the hardest? I'm just curious because there are a couple of difficult ones.

I'm fine with the crediting, it was your idea after all.

I couldn't open the final part of the secret leading to the two shakers visible from the starting location and couldn't open either of the two locked white secret doors in the central pillar that the area leading to the shakers coils around - both are just locked with no clues. It's really cool that the secrets have so many layers to them, that's something that was somewhat lacking in the pack hitherto. We'll probably need to do something about the upper areas in the boss room though, they're wide open and the goodies readily available. I think we should probably grate them off, with a well-telegraphed switch to open them that the player won't have to search very long for.

Oh, and a minor thing - you forgot to lock the entry hatch. If that was deliberate, then it opening should at the very least be a one-off. Nothing too serious though, I can fix it

Xfing wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:55 pm you forgot to lock the entry hatch.

Yeah I forgot that one.

As for the secrets, I'll PM the answers

Is it ok if I take secret level 5? I'll have done at least one of each kind of level. (Reactor, boss and secret)
It'll also mean that all levels have names then which is kind of a milestone.

I've already contacted Sirius on the boards regarding his level, so that leaves two unaccounted for - both reserved by Naphtha. The final one isn't technically reserved at the moment, but he did express interest in making it. I wonder if Naphtha's still around, I sent him a priv here on the boards but he hasn't responded yet, also no idea what he's changed his nick to (if he has) on Discord.

On the new Descent Mission Archive website he is listed as Belphegor Prime.

raydreamer wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 1:29 pm On the new Descent Mission Archive website he is listed as Belphegor Prime.

Yeap, you can also find him like that on his Youtube channel.

Ok, thanks. I commented on his latest vid, he should notice

How far along is the main .hog with level population? I'm going to populate the ones that I've built that haven't been eaten by it yet.

We're still at level 15. I'd planned to do more but then my computer crapped out on me and I had to spend that time replacing/upgrading the case and other parts instead.

In that case, I'll populate all of mine and send them to xfing or you if you want me to. I know the guidelines of what to put and what not to put in.
Because I'm in an object placement mood now that I've finished all geometry and textures of level 21 of my mission. (Yet another one I've made that's at 899 cubes.)

You can just upload them to the dropbox as, say, "levelxx_pop.hog". Should make things clear enough.

Anyway, I found a small but crucial detail in the Parallax D2 levels that I should make sure folks know about. It seems the Puuma reactor is meant to be placed in a segment that has another half-length segment up above it, with the reactor moved upwards ~4-6 units from its default position, so that the four big 'cables' coming out of its top corners will plug into the walls of that upper segment.
Every time Parallax used that reactor in both CS and Vertigo missions, that was how it was placed. And while it's something we could probably get away with not doing, we might as well go for it when we can.

I've already gone into level 35 and 46 to get those reactors properly set up -- I think those were my only levels that used that reactor. I'm not aware of which other Beta Ceti maps might have used it.

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:36 pm Anyway, I found a small but crucial detail in the Parallax D2 levels that I should make sure folks know about. It seems the Puuma reactor is meant to be placed in a segment that has another half-length segment up above it, with the reactor moved upwards ~4-6 units from its default position, so that the four big 'cables' coming out of its top corners will plug into the walls of that upper segment.
Every time Parallax used that reactor in both CS and Vertigo missions, that was how it was placed. And while it's something we could probably get away with not doing, we might as well go for it when we can.

I've already gone into level 35 and 46 to get those reactors set up -- I think those were my only levels that used that reactor. I'm not aware of which other Beta Ceti maps might have used it.

Yeah some of the older missions suffer from this. I've made sure that's sorted in every level I make that uses that reactor and the robot version.

And speaking of the robot version, make sure the object arrow is facing the direction you want it to be. Otherwise it can't shoot at you because it only has one gun point which is at the front.

I'd actually wondered if we were even going to find a place to use the robot reactor in this mission.
I hope so, but having it outside of a secret level doesn't really make sense for what the project is trying to be.

Anyway anyhow, unless there are more Beta Ceti levels using that reactor model, you and I might be the only ones who need to worry about this

EDIT: I made a small change to level 42 after realizing that the tiny yellow key room is going to be unreasonably hard no matter what the matcen spawns. The puzzle area to remove the forcefield now also has a one-time switch behind the spider ambush, which opens up a door with an invulnerability. The door's far enough away that it's probably necessary to hit the switch with a guided missile, so I added a few of those in the area as well.

The robot reactors get used a lot in obsidian to cover switches. Same with level 6 of apocalyptic factor inside the yellow door. So maybe if there is a switch heavy level somewhere it might not be too weird to have one like that

I made another quick change to level 46, just to try swapping some of the "cold" blue textures near the big lava pit on the bottom floor with some warmer colours. I think it makes more sense this way.
And it's a better imitation of how D1's first three levels approached lava, since the whole aesthetic idea of that map was originally as a slightly more D2-ish take on the lunar look.

EDIT: I just added a new version of "Haunted" to the OST Drive, and assigned it to a third level. Having it be the only song that'll play in all three chapters is a sort of in-joke, since it was the only song to play in the D1 First Strike campaign (on PSX), the D2 Counterstrike campaign, and the D2 Vertigo campaign (on the Vertigo CD).
The edited version adds the slower intro from the D2 Vertigo version onto the main arrangement from D1 PSX.

Righty-o, so, I played through the level 39 boss fight, and here are my thoughts:

Could use a couple of extra shakers in those unlockable compartments. I played on Hotshot, managed to hit him with every shaker in the room, and still wound up finishing him off with guided missiles and smarts.

The arena gives plenty of spots to hide, compartments to duck into to dodge the missile offspring etc... which is mostly good, but has the downside that it can be very frustrating to find the boss before your cloak or invuln wears off. If you're using the shakers, it's pretty safe to say you're probably not going to manage more than one hit on him for each cloak or invuln you get. We'll need to take that into account when we get around to deciding on the final number of those in the room.

The drone matcens introduce a lot of RNG when the boss winds up near the top of the room, because your Earthshaker bomblets will track them instead of the boss. Combine that with the limited number of shakers and that upper area can seriously screw up the fight. This could be mitigated by switching them back to spawning cloaked lifters the way they did in Xfing's original version, and removing a trigger or two so they spawn a little less frequently. This would also help mitigate the problem of hunting the boss down before your cloak runs out.

If you want a little more challenge from other bots in the room, I'd be curious to add Boarsheds into the spawn pool as well -- they'd give you more stuff to dodge but also allow you a steadier supply of smart missiles that could be used on the boss if you run out of shakers. I don't know if it would really work but it would be interesting to test.
Whether those matcens spawn melee bots or even just tougher bots, the player should certainly be allowed to have a helix and/or fusion cannon by that point in the mission so they have a quick way to clear out anything trying to body-check them on the way to those four vital compartments.

Wouldn't hurt to add a couple more mega missiles into the arena since even with a couple more shakers available we'll still be limiting the player's supply of effective firepower pretty severely. Especially true if the Boarshed thing doesn't work out Megas might not be that effective unless you're cloaked, but that's still a strategic option. People like strategies and options.

And lastly, the boss fight is a very slow, deliberate, and patient affair-- which is great. However, we should keep this in mind when we're picking the level's midi track, 'cause if the song doesn't reflect that deliberate and patient hunting, it's probably going to get annoying for people. The best choice will probably not be a typical "bossfight" song.

Yea, I suppose the intention was to have them spawn cloaked lifters and diamonds, but TRUE just forgot to redo the bots. Obviously, we're not going to keep class 1 drones there.

I've, let's call it, "submitted a monit" to Sirius regarding that DLE update that would allow us to see extra textures in PIG files, that way I'll be able to add true D1 lava, lava trickle texture etc - we'll have to go over every level that uses those and change the textures to the new ones once they're visible in DLE - obviously that will make the mission dependent on having those new files, but we'll be supplying those so it shouldn't be too big a deal. Also looking forward to Sirius' remaining level - there are two claimed by Naphtha, but he's been impossible to contact for a while now - didn't even reply to that youtube comment on his channel. Hopefully everything's alright with him

I think we might want to avoid having cloaked diamond claws come out of the matcens unless the player gets fusion by that point. 'cause the player's gonna need to keep moving when something they didn't see gets in their face, and aside from Fusion the best tool to allow that to happen is Helix.
...which will cause problems for them if the thing in their face has plasma blobs

Its probably better if the matcens spawned cloaked lifters. The boss is the main damage dealer and so the purpose of the lifters is so that the boss can get more shots on you

Yeah, and the diamond claws are there to mix it up. BTW there are only certain places that trigger the matcens and Descent is pretty much not doable without foreknowledge anyway, so I think it should be fine. Either that or make the matcens one-shot. But I do think it'd be cool to have the two main types of cloaked melee bots popping out of one matcen, that's kinda the point

I think that's fine if players are given fusion.
Just that having to rely on helix or gauss where the cloaked claws are involved would probably result in a lot of frustrating deaths even with the foreknowledge.

Keep in mind the boss spawns cloaked diamond claws too

You could replace the helix in level 39 that is right in front of as you start with fusion. It's a suitably hard secret for its first appearance.

Relying on the player to find tough secrets in order to save themselves from extreme frustration feels like trying to take our own problem and then blame them for it.

That said, though, as long as it doesn't rely on triggered doors that only open once, I'm okay with it.

If a player who didn't quite solve it at first is able to realize that the fusion would be a big help, then make the decision to go back and finish the puzzle, that's still good design.
If they make that decision but then realize they're going to have to restart the level, that's not exactly good design.

Personally I think giving players our restored d1 fusion for 15ish levels would be acceptable, since it is a fan-favourite weapon and that's not too far off from the amount of game that D1 let you have it for.
In fact, aside from the length of our pack, the fusion is probably our biggest selling point.
And this would be a pretty epic context to get it in

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:09 pm That said, though, as long as it doesn't rely on triggered doors that only open once, I'm okay with it.

There is unlimited tries as long as long as you dont hit the switch that turn the forcefields off. Then you have as many tries as you have guided missiles.

That's technically infinite, cause the boss spawns hornet clones

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:24 pm That's technically infinite, cause the boss spawns hornet clones

It will all be fine then as long as there is knowledge of what the boss spawns. But I dont think anyone will play this as their first descent game.

Definitely agree that Fusion can come in late in the mission, but with enough levels to actually have fun with it - unlike what Revival did with the Lancer in Overload. D1 had all weapons available by level 10, which is exactly 1/3 of the game (or slightly more than that if you don't play the secret levels), while D2 did all the primaries by level 13 (just over halfway through the mission) and the earthshaker either in secret level 4 or in level 17, meaning around 2/3 into the mission. Fusion can definitely already start appearing by level 39 and perhaps even earlier, provided it's the last primary weapon that appears (it's generally still the strongest if used skillfully, IMO.)

Also, before TRUE remade the arena, those alcoves in the ceiling with cloaks, invulnerabilities and shakers were actually secrets. Initially they were hidden behind the regular ceiling texture, meaning they were completely not telegraphed - I recognized that as an issue and decided to change the texture to a grate - but in the current version the compartments are wide open and not closed off by anything (if I remember well). Or maybe walls have already been added back, I don't remember, it's been a while But yeah, I think I'd like to have them back there, with switches placed in readily seen places so that stress and lack of knowledge doesn't prevent the player from accessing them. The compartments could also be telegraphed from the bottom with grates as well, but that's probably not necessary and would require extra segments anyway.

Perhaps the switches for the cloaks and invuls in the top compartments could go in the other corners like the two that are already there.

The compartments in the ceiling had to be opened up when I played it yesterday.
It was fine enough, since the path to take to do it is now the one telegraphed by that extra life.

Only edit I'm planning to make is to put some warning stripes next to a couple of really important secret doors that otherwise blend completely into the floor.

I also think one or two earthshakers in the open on the boss arena would be fine-- not enough to do serious damage, but enough that players don't immediately assume they'll need to rely on phoenix and smarts, when they get to the arena and haven't got any.

Ohhh right, I think I may have added that myself. Then again, I'll have to check again lol

As for shakers, those could be dispensed earlier in the level as well. There is a very contrived secret sequence in the level that is tricky to figure out, and the whole secret area is quite extensive - something we'd been missing in the mission so far. But it's also a perfect opportunity to pack some shakers in there.

There already are, I think....

Oooooooooh, come to think of it, having a full map in the boss room would give the players a great incentive to go back and figure the secret out.
...and I think I know just where it should go

Alter-Fox wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:19 am Only edit I'm planning to make is to put some warning stripes next to a couple of really important secret doors that otherwise blend completely into the floor.

It might be worth changing the floor texture to one from the first game that has a secret door.
Not the grey one though because that's the best secret door in D1. Maybe the floor that is hexagons and squares that is used in level 7 extensively because the secret door for that one is more grey than the rest.

I think it'll be okay if we add a full map (which I've already done).
I'll keep that in mind as an option when I get around to fully populating, though.

By the way, I looked at the modifications to level 45 and there is one thing that must change and one thing that could change.
The one that must change is that the placement of the reactor needs to be lower because at the moment it is floating.
The one thing that could change is the texturing of the horizontal pillar that the reactor sits on. You might notice several pillars throughout the level that has rock330 under then metl139 over, no matter the theme. All but one of these pillars have at least one X grate diagonally cut in half somewhere on it.

I know I could do this myself but I really don't dare touch the main dropbox. I only look at it.

TRUEpiiiicness wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:06 pm By the way, I looked at the modifications to level 45 and there is one thing that must change and one thing that could change.
The one that must change is that the placement of the reactor needs to be lower because at the moment it is floating.
The one thing that could change is the texturing of the horizontal pillar that the reactor sits on. You might notice several pillars throughout the level that has rock330 under then metl139 over, no matter the theme. All but one of these pillars have at least one X grate diagonally cut in half somewhere on it.

I know I could do this myself but I really don't dare touch the main dropbox. I only look at it.

Heyyy, sorry about being so late to this. I fixed the reactor thingy, but I'm not sure I understand what you meant by that second thing. The texturing on the pillar beneath the reactor also has metl139 with one part cut off diagonally. What do you want me to change this to?

Xfing wrote: ↑Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:55 am

TRUEpiiiicness wrote: ↑Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:06 pm By the way, I looked at the modifications to level 45 and there is one thing that must change and one thing that could change.
The one that must change is that the placement of the reactor needs to be lower because at the moment it is floating.
The one thing that could change is the texturing of the horizontal pillar that the reactor sits on. You might notice several pillars throughout the level that has rock330 under then metl139 over, no matter the theme. All but one of these pillars have at least one X grate diagonally cut in half somewhere on it.

I know I could do this myself but I really don't dare touch the main dropbox. I only look at it.

Heyyy, sorry about being so late to this. I fixed the reactor thingy, but I'm not sure I understand what you meant by that second thing. The texturing on the pillar beneath the reactor also has metl139 with one part cut off diagonally. What do you want me to change this to?

Actually, just leave it as it is. That one pillar can be the unique one.

Well I can change it, I just didn't understand from your wording what exactly you wanted changed - is the issue with metl139 or the underlying texture? I can definitely see how combining the X-shaped grate with the white and red reactor power line texture is a bit unorthodox, but I don't see anything wrong with it really. Mind elaborating what you meant there? Just curious

Xfing wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 10:43 am Well I can change it, I just didn't understand from your wording what exactly you wanted changed - is the issue with metl139 or the underlying texture? I can definitely see how combining the X-shaped grate with the white and red reactor power line texture is a bit unorthodox, but I don't see anything wrong with it really. Mind elaborating what you meant there? Just curious

Its the underlying texture, it was originally rock330 to match all the other pillars but the reactor texture can stay.

Ah, alrighty then! Carry on

Just a quick off topic-ish question. Should we place a reactor in boss levels like parallax did or nah?
They'll disappear on load anyway. I think they are for anarchy or something. I've never played multiplayer so I'm not sure.