DescentBB

My thoughts exactly TG as far as term limits go. As far as Putin, you should read his wiki page and some of his biography. He has done exactly as Hitler, but been very slow and methodic about it. Since he was barred from a third consecutive term as president. he was appointed prime minister yet again, maintaining dominance, then he was able to get the law changed so that the governor's no longer reported to the President but to, you guessed it! The Prime Minister. This may seem benign until all the governor's are personal friends of yours. That guy has been in power since the fall of the Soviet Union and still there to this day and I'd bet good money that as soon as this presidency is over, he gets appointed Prime Minister, again.

U.S. hates Russian people, hates Russia. I am very interested to know why. I could understand you, if there were reasons for this. But you can not call them.

Top Gun wrote:That is one seriously **** society you live in over there, brother.

I assume that the purpose of focusing of American society on the problems in the distant, cold and alien Russia, is a distraction from the Americans discuss and solve their urgent and very serious internal problems, brother.

sigma wrote:U.S. hates Russian people, hates Russia. I am very interested to know why. I could understand you, if there were reasons for this. But you can not call them.

Sensible Americans don't hate Russia. In fact, they hardly consider Russia in their thoughts at all. The main problem comes from Cold War Era propaganda. Our government did a fairly good job brainwashing the public into thinking The Soviet Union was evil. This was made easier due to the fact some pretty horrible stuff happened in your country. A little lie goes a long way and the American media reveled in the classic good-versus-evil characterization of our two countries. The struggle became a favorite storyline for movies, books, and television shows. But because this stereotype was persistent for an entire generation we will have ill aftereffects. Today there are a lot of unthinking people who still embrace the US=good, Russia=bad stereotype because it is easier than trying to understand history and the complexity of international relations. Of course, our government is full of unthinking individuals who grew up during the Cold War, which makes our foreign policy more than a little idiotic.

I believe that Barack Obama shares your views. I think he would make you his advisor on international issues. But today, even as President of the United States of America, no one can change the momentum of U.S. policy , unfortunately. I hope that the new generation of American politicians will have a new look, not destructive, but useful for all . In the end, in 100-200 years the survival of humanity will become our common problem we can solve together only. In the end , us need to learn how to benefit from the potential of technological development in different political environments. If we really are so smart , what themselves believe .
EDIT: Although again it turns out that the only incentive for the development of science is rivalry or mutual threat of attack on each other

sigma wrote:U.S. hates Russian people, hates Russia. I am very interested to know why. I could understand you, if there were reasons for this. But you can not call them.

I don't hate Russia or its people, but I do hate your autocratic, Cold War-minded leader, and I hate that your citizenry is deluded enough to view him as a good choice for leader. If you elected someone like Garry Kasparov to the presidency, I'd be dancing in the street waving a Russian flag.

sigma wrote:

Top Gun wrote:That is one seriously **** society you live in over there, brother.

I assume that the purpose of focusing of American society on the problems in the distant, cold and alien Russia, is a distraction from the Americans discuss and solve their urgent and very serious internal problems, brother.

We have plenty of internal problems that we're working on, but our problems aren't the ones that are flouting international law and illegally seizing territory from a neighboring country. (Not this time, anyway.)

I've got one question for sigma. Why do Russia's occupying soldiers keep their faces hidden and covered if Putin thinks he liberating Crimea? They look more like ninja invaders than liberators. What are they afraid of?

And for the record sigma, most Americans don't hate Russians, including me.

TC, I do not know where you saw it. So I can not answer. Usually black masks use units of special purpose.

Notice that these guys don't wear any national identification or patches on their uniforms either, but they're definitely Russian. Plus, they're all carrying AK's or Dragunovs. They look less like a nation's soldiers and more like a bunch of invading thugs.

All I can tell you that in these photos I see soldiers who have no relation to conventional forces. These soldiers are not the typical outfit , in their hands the special weapons , including rapid-fire sniper rifles and peculiar machine guns, which are used by special forces . But , at the same time , ordinary special mission unit has special badges and insignia and identification. But it's uniquely Russian military uniform . Conclusion: it is by no means a conventional army. These guys are very similar to special forces GRU .
P.S. If you are very interesting, these guys must have such chevrons. But these patches are not made ​​to advertise .

Quote: “We will act in their defense against any threats,” Mr. Obama said at a news conference in The Hague. “That’s what NATO is all about. When it comes to a potential military response, that is defined by NATO membership.” End of quote.
American politicians most deceitful of all politicians. First, provoke and attack other countries, use mercenaries to inflate military conflicts, cut, kill ordinary citizens of other countries, and then have the audacity to declare that we will defend ourselves from them! Arabs blew up the International Trade Centre in New York, to subjugate the United States, and the U.S. dutifully perform their will. But Russia's fault anyway! That is, the U.S. will continue to cooperate with the terrorists who kill civilians even Americans in America, but the U.S. will not cooperate with Russia!

I have a challenge for you, Sigma(although I am not sure you will be able to comply, given language and other barriers):
Read the foreign press on the Crimea, Russian governance and especially Russian intimidation of the free press. I'm NOT
suggesting that you read the viewpoint in the US media. No, I ask that you read what is available on any and all of the following
nation's news outlets:
Estonia, South Africa, India, Poland should give you a well rounded view of how the REAL world views Russia. And, it should
prove to be a bit unsettling to your confidence that you aren't the daily target of a Russian propaganda machine.

Firstly , I express my gratitude to you , that you are trying to properly understand my terrible english
Secondly , I quoted from the New York Times .
Thirdly , I believe that Russia is trying by all means to prevent World War III , while the U.S. tries to provoke it . Conflict in Ukraine was provoked U.S. Generally , Europe can only regret . First, the U.S. discredited the European Union in an attempt to exacerbate relations between the European Union and Russia using default Cyprus. The U.S. then tried again embroil Russia and the European Union through the conflict in Ukraine. I believe that the Russian initiative to the Crimea to Russia is not only historically fair, but also to some extent for the U.S. sobering.
As for my interest in the media in other countries, so I know. I can clearly see when the film journalists paid U.S. , and when I see really real independent news and analytical articles, including in Russia.

the reason I asked you to read elsewhere is the widespread reports in ALL other nation's press about current levels of Russian anti-US propaganda having reached BEYOND the Soviet-era levels. Further, ALL other national media will show you the extent to which intimidation of ANY independent voice in your press has been taken---over 800 journalists in jail, at least two dozen murdered, all in the last 8 years. You are being played for a fool by a government that relies on stoking nationalism to survive, and painting the US as evil as a means to distract you from the real reason your economic situation is so dismal. I was hearing an interview with a former US ambassador last night who said that he had to see himself, daily, portrayed as personally bringing cash financing to anti-Putin protest groups, which was a blatant lie, in your media.

sigma wrote:Thirdly , I believe that Russia is trying by all means to prevent World War III , while the U.S. tries to provoke it .

wut

I doubt sigma understands the premise that if the US wanted a nuclear war…all we would have to do is push a few buttons.

He says nuclear war every other post, sorry ass state of affairs when a "super power" has no other viable defense.

Spidey wrote:I doubt sigma understands the premise that if the US wanted a nuclear war…all we would have to do is push a few buttons.

He says nuclear war every other post, sorry ass state of affairs when a "super power" has no other viable defense.

Absolutely. I always mention the possibility of using nuclear weapons as a result of small conflicts between the two superpowers. Russia is trying to stop such conflicts from the outset. But the U.S. constantly climbs in the bottle, trying to put Putin in a pose of submission USA.
Russia controls to ensure viability of NATO bases near our borders . In other words, yet Russia allows U.S. to provide hem with military bases. But Russia can easily cut these military bases from the outside world . American soldiers at these bases will not even have to kill. They simply die of hunger . That's why I always remind you that out of petty quarrels born great wars.

you have a cartoon-like view of reality, Sigma.

callmeslick wrote:you have a cartoon-like view of reality, Sigma.

Just this picture can say a thousand words.

none of them true, though, Sigma. Actually, I wasn't referring so much to your picture post, as your unbelievable, simplistic view of how Russia would 'isolate' US troops at NATO outposts. You really have no clue what you would be up against, do you?

callmeslick wrote:none of them true, though, Sigma. Actually, I wasn't referring so much to your picture post, as your unbelievable, simplistic view of how Russia would 'isolate' US troops at NATO outposts. You really have no clue what you would be up against, do you?

I see that you talk like a person who is under the influence of misconceptions about the omnipotence of the United States. As the Germans in 1936. I have no doubt that you, as an intelligent man, well aware of the danger today is the U.S. policy for the safety of Americans. I want to ask you one question. What has been the "American democracy" if the Americans can not affect the policy of the American government, even knowing that tomorrow on America may fall down nuclear missiles from all sides?

You can not do anything. Admit at least to himself, that American democracy is a myth for Americans.

America is NOT a Democracy, never was. We are a Representative Republic. Different in many ways. What that has to do with my point, I can't surmise.
This much I'll assure you: if Russia was stupid enough to persue your course of action, it would result in the annihilation(hope that translates perfectly) of a LOT of Russian soldiers. This isn't 1943, nor 1820, you can't use weather nor terrain to protect you. You would be doing nothing short of aggravating a hugely superior technological force that would, I repeat, lead to utter annihilation.


to your point about our government reflecting the wishes of the people, this much I will say: At present, I view the US public as somewhat weary of the role of World Policeman into which we've been thrust by the rest of the world for the past 50 or so years. We are definitely sick of stupid wars, hence, the election of Obama on the promise that he would exit both Iraq and Afghanistan(first is done, second is imminent). However, we do tend to stick by our treaties and agreements, and if Russia were stupid enough to threaten US ground troops in some NATO outpost(s), the US populace would be largely unified, and the response would exceed anything your imagination seems capable of. You see, we possess FAR more than mere nuclear deterrents. Some of what we possess has yet to be seen in use, I suspect. While your military seems incapable of running a submarine fleet without losing ships to the ocean floor, and your military has the highest alcoholism rate of any on the planet, I suspect they aren't so unrealistic to understand that.

Attempt number 2.
How ordinary citizens in the United States may affect the change in U.S. foreign policy when they know and see that U.S. policy is a real danger for America and for the world?

sigma wrote:

That cartoon is so wrong. Obama has hardly gotten us involved in Syria, beyond a few misplaced and stolen weapons. Russia, however, has been endlessly supplying all sorts of weapons to Assad, who has been using those weapons quite generously on his own people. Why doesn't Russia stay out of Syria and quit giving Assad the ability to perform mass genocide? Just ask all those millions of Syrian refugees now living in poverty and suffering in Turkey, Iraq and Lebanon. Their suffering is a stain on Russian hands.

sigma wrote:Attempt number 2.
How ordinary citizens in the United States may affect the change in U.S. foreign policy when they know and see that U.S. policy is a real danger for America and for the world?

sigma, can you as a lowly citizen affect any changes to Russian foreign policy? I bet you can't either.

Who told you that? Please provide sources of information.

tunnelcat wrote:sigma, can you as a lowly citizen affect any changes to Russian foreign policy? I bet you can't either.

Sure. I've written about this before. Russian have a bad habit to start to build barricades and storm the building of the Government when they do not agree with the policy of their own government.
I still want to hear how the American public will fight with the wrong policy of the U.S. administration, except pickets near the fence of the White House.

I guess ignorance is truly bliss in Russia.

maybe you should try looking it up yourself. or do they block certain internet sites in russia

sigma wrote:Attempt number 2.
How ordinary citizens in the United States may affect the change in U.S. foreign policy when they know and see that U.S. policy is a real danger for America and for the world?

I showed you EXACTLY how they did that, when they chose to elect Barack Obama.

CUDA wrote:I guess ignorance is truly bliss in Russia.

maybe you should try looking it up yourself. or do they block certain internet sites in russia

What sites? Please give links. For the elimination of ignorance of the Russians.

callmeslick wrote:

sigma wrote:Attempt number 2.
How ordinary citizens in the United States may affect the change in U.S. foreign policy when they know and see that U.S. policy is a real danger for America and for the world?

I showed you EXACTLY how they did that, when they chose to elect Barack Obama.

I think sigma is referring to the American Military Industrial Complex. I don't think we have much of a chance of stopping that monster, no matter who we elect.

Cat, given your opinion, Americans need much more to fear your government decisions long ago, than the Russian government decisions.

sigma wrote:

CUDA wrote:I guess ignorance is truly bliss in Russia.
maybe you should try looking it up yourself. or do they block certain internet sites in russia

What sites? Please give links. For the elimination of ignorance of the Russians.[/quote]

I suggested, Sigma, that you read the media from a list of suggested nations. Now, I didn't compose a list of specific links, but
would be glad to do so.

I'm certainly not going to beg you to provide these links

sigma wrote:Cat, given your opinion, Americans need much more to fear your government decisions long ago, than the Russian government decisions.

You know, you may be right. I'm not sure what we have to fear, corporate power or military power. They're both in bed together now too.

Sigma, TC's response above is illustrative of something for you to ponder:

Anyone who reads these boards knows that many of us Americans don't agree on much. Woodchip and Will might argue the point if I predicted the sun will rise in the morning. I disagree with the excessiveness of TC's view of corporate/military matters. Sure, I find there to be some issues, but not unmanageable ones. At any rate, one can see that Woody, Will, TC, TB, CUDA, Vision and myself(not to leave anyone out, my hands are just tired) are seldom of one voice on ANYTHING. Yet, we all agree that you have a BADLY warped view of both the reality of your own nation and the role the US plays on the world stage. That ought to give you pause(reason to wonder).

I don't know Slick, when several presidents get on national television and warn of secret societies, phantom governments, and Oligarchical rule might give anyone to take pause and consider that.

EDIT: I just woke up so maybe I just invented a new word I don't know

tunnelcat wrote: Obama has hardly gotten us involved in Syria, beyond a few misplaced and stolen weapons.

"Ab altero expectes, alteri quod feceris."
Publilius Syrus

That saying is nothing but a twisted version of Matthew 7:12 and a convenient justification for Russia to invade Crimea, and soon, probably Eastern Ukraine. It's the old schoolyard bully saying: "Because you did it, I can do it too". I think the Biblical version is much better and fairer, and yes, our country should be following it as well. Our foreign policy is biased towards our national interest, always has been, not the interests of any of the countries we've currently "invaded" in our "national interests". Same goes for Russia too. Just because there are Russians living in Ukraine, doesn't make it right for Putin to invade that country militarily just to "protect" those Russians.

Matthew 7:12

12"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets".

От Матфея 7

12 Итак во всем, как хотите, чтобы с вами поступали люди, так поступайте и вы с ними, ибо в этом закон и пророки.

But you will have to acknowledge that if Russia keeps chipping away at Ukraine, NATO is in danger of collapsing, definitely not something the U.S. would like to see happen, or probably allow to happen either.

http://theweek.com/article/index/258840 ... nd-of-nato

flip wrote:I don't know Slick, when several presidents get on national television and warn of secret societies, phantom governments, and Oligarchical rule might give anyone to take pause and consider that.

EDIT: I just woke up so maybe I just invented a new word I don't know

which Presidents ever did so? Sure, Eisenhower did talk about a miltary-industrial complex, and he was correct to do so. Most of us likely agree that the idea of a shadow government around high-security has developed since the Manhattan Project. Don't know of a single President who spoke of oligarchy.

actually, TC, Russia's actions in Ukraine are NO threat to NATO, as the Ukraine isn't a member state, or even close to being one. However,there is a treaty in place with the US and Britain and the Ukraine. Further, such actions suggest that Putin wishes to retake larger amounts of former Soviet satellite states, and THAT would destroy NATO. What I think will end up happening, no matter what, is a much more welcoming attitude in the East of Europe towards large-scale building of ballistic missile batteries, which IMHO would be a step into a dark past.