DescentBB

I've always been good at robot placement and I'd love to take a shot at balancing the mission provided you give me guidance what you are looking for so I don't go off on my own doing it.

DarkFlameWolf wrote:I've always been good at robot placement and I'd love to take a shot at balancing the mission provided you give me guidance what you are looking for so I don't go off on my own doing it.

How about a level or two first maybe? Please? Pretty please?

Could be Vertigo ones, as I know you don't like being restricted and Vertigo is pretty wild design-wise in general, so you could probably fit something right in :>

I'm pretty flexible. But if you don't want me touching your 'babies' (your levels), I fully understand.

DarkFlameWolf wrote:I'm pretty flexible. But if you don't want me touching your 'babies' (your levels), I fully understand.

I dunno, I only really have vague plans or visions for maybe 3 or 4 more levels, or at least sections thereof - the Solar System mostly (though ironically I've already made several levels for this section myself)... Most levels which aren't claimed thus far are fair game as of this moment, though. I'd only like to have a say in the texturing scheme of the final level and that's basically it, you've got plenty slots to choose from

Sorry! I didn't realize that L'aeev was taken!

Xfing wrote:First of course I'll have them run for plagiarism, though, as everything seems just too good about those two levels, especially U'denyor. The brilliant idea for the boss arena makes me think someone might have helped you...

The only person I would have asked is too busy to build 20x20x20s... And if you think that arena was plagiarized, then tell me the level and ask if I've heard of it. I may also taken one of Sirius' suggestions...

Sirius wrote: There is, arguably, such a thing as too much detail, but when you're developing single-player mapping skills it's probably best to pretend there isn't at first.

So you can conclude that I have been working on my design skills and improving to make those better designs that are "too good".

And I have also put those tips into these two levels:

S'tlo Sigma (Take 2)
http://www.enspiar.com/dmdb/viewMission.php?id=1031
This version is nothing like the old one. I worked on size as a major focus. I also think you'll like the boss arena.

Dacol Futyl Caverns (Beta Ceti)
http://www.enspiar.com/dmdb/viewMission.php?id=1032
This one is probably one of my most promising levels yet, and my biggest too. I put a few steady days into this one. Do not attempt the final puzzle on ace or insane, though .

I play usually on ace...
Best to make it playable on all difficulties. Otherwise somebody else is just going adjust it for you. At least this way it gets to be your work still.

Maybe someone could extend the timer a little

Anywho, I did make a pretty important fix in the prison entrance, so I would recommend re-downloading Dacol Futyl in order to save the hostages.

Ok gimme a few minutes, I'll check out them levels.

I've got enough material from you for now to process, so if you could hold off for a while I'd be grateful, because I'm not keeping up Try designing something for yourself in the meantime.

EDIT:

S'tlo Sigma

Surprise, surprise! The level's actually good enough to be included without many changes. You really do listen to suggestions, which is great. There is no excessive symmetry, no formulaic layout - and that's a great start. The wall textures are tastefully chosen and the geometry is capable - the only thing I don't quite like is your liberal use of the long wall lights - it's easy to abuse those and they don't look too good the way you used them. The geometry itself is a nice mix of D1 winding corridors and interesting chambers from D2. The level's still quite short, especially for this part of the mission, but Puuma Sphere levels weren't known for being very sprawling anyhow. Hence I think that this would be good for the introductory Puuma level, so you'd have to rework the boss room into a reactor room and we'll register it as the first slot for Puuma Sphere (Puuma Sphere 1: Wing N'drsaedt). The boss level will need to be bigger, meaner, darker and fuller of secrets.

So I'd work a bit on the texturing and light use, make the red room smaller and put a reactor in, and this level would pretty much be good to go. Please do that. After you're done, I'll take a few looks and maybe optimize some segment geometry here and there.

Dacol Futyl Caverns

Remember what I wrote about asking you to hold off on more levels? Well scratch that! Levels of this quality - you can bring me as many as you want! This level is fricking amazing in practically all aspects conceivable. The size is just right, the puzzles are great, the geometry is adventurous and intricate and the texturing is fresh and tasteful. This feels, looks and plays like a real Vertigo level, all the while reminding me of D1 level 23. It's getting a slot without a second thought, I'll add it in a while. Some work will need to be done on one of the puzzles - the one by the waterfall where you need to fire a guided to unlock a panel - bad idea, any player is gonna need like 100 guided missiles to get it right, we'll have to widen that cube. Also, some of the instances of the long, winding lights will have to be replaced with something else, so basically the same gripe as the previous level. On the plus side, no expansion is needed as the level is finally of suitable size. Great job this time.

Just keep in mind that if someone PMs me claiming authorship rights it'll be on your ass

Ok, Lightwolf, you've finally gotten your way - I've listed you as one of the level makers. I chose spot 8 on the Vertigo list for your Dacol Futyl Caverns - of course this is temporary and might be changed in the future, when we have more levels and feel that this level would flow better in a different spot.

Correct the things I told you about regarding S'tlo Sigma (Wing N'drsaedt) and reupload the level, then I'll add that level as finished by you too. If you feel like expanding the level more, feel free to use geometry from your previous Wing N'drsaedt offering you sent a while ago - much of that architecture is perfectly salvageable and would make your level even better, I'm especially thinking about that winding corridor and chamber where you pick up the blue key. Hell, you could even paste the entire level into the new one, as long as you make it work logically.

I also had to remove Dravis Black and PygmyRhino from the list of claimed levels due to no contact with them whatsoever - so the levels are ripe for the taking again. Of course if the authors-to-be contact me themselves with a progress report, I'll reinstate them happily, but I've heard not a single word from them for months on end, so right now this is the way to proceed IMO.

Xfing wrote:I also had to remove Dravis Black and PygmyRhino from the list of claimed levels due to no contact with them whatsoever

Dravis and Pigmy can both easily be found on facebook and on the Descent Rangers mumble server.

Lothar wrote:

Xfing wrote:I also had to remove Dravis Black and PygmyRhino from the list of claimed levels due to no contact with them whatsoever

Dravis and Pigmy can both easily be found on facebook and on the Descent Rangers mumble server.

Link me to the latter please! I'd really like to find out what's up.

Download Mumble here: http://mumble.sourceforge.net/ then connect to server address mumble.descentrangers.com on port 31393

Lothar wrote:Download Mumble here: http://mumble.sourceforge.net/ then connect to server address mumble.descentrangers.com on port 31393

Thanks a lot, I'll do that when I have a free while.

Just read your posts about removing me, Xfing. I have to be honest, DescentBB is one of the last forums I check when I do Descent stuff online. If you'll have me, I'd love to still design levels 10 and 11 for you. I'm on mumble a lot, and you can even add me on Facebook if you have one

https://www.facebook.com/matt.cusworth

again, sorry for the lack of communication, but this is one of the last places I look. (Definitely going to check back here often)

PigmyRhino wrote:Just read your posts about removing me, Xfing. I have to be honest, DescentBB is one of the last forums I check when I do Descent stuff online. If you'll have me, I'd love to still design levels 10 and 11 for you. I'm on mumble a lot, and you can even add me on Facebook if you have one

https://www.facebook.com/matt.cusworth

again, sorry for the lack of communication, but this is one of the last places I look. (Definitely going to check back here often)

Ok, no problem! I'll get you right back on those levels. I'll try to install Mumble and maybe keep track there.

Well then, I think you'll approve of Coolyard Station (not the one from a while back, though it has similar concepts). I tried to give it a slightly Ahayweh-ish feel. It also contains a sneaky guided missile puzzle for a Super Laser, the missile being hidden inside the red door. The smart missile puzzle was actually a solution to a problem with the forcefeild trap near the blue key.
http://www.enspiar.com/dmdb/viewMission.php?id=1034

I'll make the necessary changes to S'tlo in order to convert it into Wing, and that may be my last thing for 1.5 for a little while (unless I decide to incorporate the solo level Icikal Caverns into the project), though I probably can't stay away for too long. And I will stay in the loop for sure .

P.S. All of my levels probably need quite a few more powerups since they aren't my strong suit.

Edit: Here are the changes to S'tlo N'drsaedt (get what I did there? )
http://www.enspiar.com/dmdb/viewMission.php?id=1035

Yes, I recycled the reactor room from the old Wing. I also fixed a bug with trap in front of the yellow door.

Xfing wrote:Ok, no problem! I'll get you right back on those levels. I'll try to install Mumble and maybe keep track there.

Thanks so much! I'll hopefully see you in mumble (or even in the mines) from time to time

PigmyRhino wrote:

Xfing wrote:Ok, no problem! I'll get you right back on those levels. I'll try to install Mumble and maybe keep track there.

Thanks so much! I'll hopefully see you in mumble (or even in the mines) from time to time

Problem is, now that I'm working I go to sleep at 10 PM every day, which is 3 PM back in North America ;x

I'm quitting my job starting October though, so I should have an easier time staying up late

LightWolf wrote:Well then, I think you'll approve of Coolyard Station (not the one from a while back, though it has similar concepts). I tried to give it a slightly Ahayweh-ish feel. It also contains a sneaky guided missile puzzle for a Super Laser, the missile being hidden inside the red door. The smart missile puzzle was actually a solution to a problem with the forcefeild trap near the blue key.
http://www.enspiar.com/dmdb/viewMission.php?id=1034

I'll make the necessary changes to S'tlo in order to convert it into Wing, and that may be my last thing for 1.5 for a little while (unless I decide to incorporate the solo level Icikal Caverns into the project), though I probably can't stay away for too long. And I will stay in the loop for sure .

P.S. All of my levels probably need quite a few more powerups since they aren't my strong suit.

Edit: Here are the changes to S'tlo N'drsaedt (get what I did there? )
http://www.enspiar.com/dmdb/viewMission.php?id=1035

Yes, I recycled the reactor room from the old Wing. I also fixed a bug with trap in front of the yellow door.

Don't worry about the powerups and the robots - most if not all of these will get overhauled anyway once we've got all the levels for the set, so we can plan populating them with robots and including power-ups accordingly. I'll check out the levels later today.

EDIT:

Coolyard Station:

Ok, this level is alright, but I think you can do better. There are some things you'd have to change:
- The entry hub looks too blatantly like Ahayweh Gate, along with the GuideBot placement. Could it get more obvious than that? I'd remodel the entire area.
- The level should be around 2x bigger.
- The yellow key room is too short, too lazy and the floor texture doesn't quite fit Zeta Aquilae (it's the most minor of its troubles, though).
- On the bright side: the red key room and the reactor area are brilliant. The secrets are alright and I quite liked how you unlock the blue key.

So yeah, if you expand the level by like 100% while keeping the same quality and change the things I named, I can see it making the cut, it's really a decent level. You're growing into quite a designer to be honest.

Forgive me but I'll give you feedback on the changes to the other level tomorrow, too tired now.

Ok, about Wing:

The level's in - it's pretty well made as I said before - has the potential to be as annoying and challenging as D2's actual first Puuma level, the N'neri Ring (I think it was called). Only thing I did was take the liberty to add another area - one I really wanted to see in the level and you didn't include in your revised version. So I did add it as the area where you get the blue key, which is the same role it fulfilled in your initial rendition of Wing, and I think it fits right in. I'll add the level to the listing right away and here it is for you to check out after the change:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a3vrcur38so9 ... ZATWa?dl=0

Of course there are still some minor things to fix, like some odd or misaligned textures, but that'll be done in due time, probably when we get to the quality control phase of the mission - for now it's all good. Congratulations, keep up the good work!

EDIT: I just felt like playing the Puuma sphere levels from the original game to compare, and guess what I found out. You stole the blue key area from level 22 of Counterstrike, down to the last cube. How many times have I told you not to do that? Guess that would explain the speed with which you make levels, lol. At any rate, next time you steal an area from another level at least don't be so shameless about it and tinker with the geometry a bit. I was beginning to trust you, mind you. You need to remake that entire area, or else I'm pulling the level from the mission pack, no matter how good it is.

Xfing wrote: EDIT: I just felt like playing the Puuma sphere levels from the original game to compare, and guess what I found out. You stole the blue key area from level 22 of Counterstrike, down to the last cube. How many times have I told you not to do that? Guess that would explain the speed with which you make levels, lol. At any rate, next time you steal an area from another level at least don't be so shameless about it and tinker with the geometry a bit. I was beginning to trust you, mind you. You need to remake that entire area, or else I'm pulling the level from the mission pack, no matter how good it is.

I'll do that... and to be honest, I never even looked at the Puuma Sphere levels while designing that (with one exception, level 23, I think), so I honestly had no idea. I will fix it though.

LightWolf wrote:

Xfing wrote: I'll do that... and to be honest, I never even looked at the Puuma Sphere levels while designing that (with one exception, level 23, I think), so I honestly had no idea. I will fix it though.

Well, you'll have to admit though, that this

Kinda looks similar... identical even, to this:


Really, stop undermining your efforts by doing this, it's not worth it.

Well, I did revise it so it doesn't look like K'wod Ar'ior's blue key area...
http://www.enspiar.com/dmdb/viewMission.php?id=1035
I also made a few minor changes to your room (changed a few textures and added a matcen).

LightWolf wrote:Well, I did revise it so it doesn't look like K'wod Ar'ior's blue key area...
http://www.enspiar.com/dmdb/viewMission.php?id=1035
I also made a few minor changes to your room (changed a few textures and added a matcen).

See? What is so hard?

Fair enough as it is now. I'm not sure if I'm a fan of using the light texture as a fence - it's quite unorthodox and frankly doesn't look that good. I'd much rather stick with the universal grate for things like this. I'll change it back - otherwise the matcen was a good change.

Now if I could ask you to work a bit more on Coolyard Station. That level had potential and if you make it twice as big it should make the cut easily. If you don't have a good idea how to proceed, feel free to reuse stuff from some of your other, smaller levels. U'denyor might be a good bet, as some of that geometry was amazingly good, though to be fair, that level is intrinsically a boss level, so maybe it'd be better to try something different.

But don't let me catch you taking shall we call it "overly direct inspirations" again, as I'll have to bar you from any further contributions if you keep doing that.

I'll try not to go overboard this time.

Xfing, I'm looking at the two images you posted and that seems to be a very common cube layout as far as I'm concerned. It opens up from a 20x20x20 cube hallway into a big square room and then offshoot that back into normal cubes on all sides. Even Descent 1 does this a few times and now that I think about it, Descent 2 utilizes this a few times as well. They copied off themselves!

DarkFlameWolf wrote:Xfing, I'm looking at the two images you posted and that seems to be a very common cube layout as far as I'm concerned. It opens up from a 20x20x20 cube hallway into a big square room and then offshoot that back into normal cubes on all sides. Even Descent 1 does this a few times and now that I think about it, Descent 2 utilizes this a few times as well. They copied off themselves!

That may be so, but you'll notice the adjoining entry tunnel was copied also - using the same, quite nonstandard ornamentation in the form of those additional cubes on each side, narrowed down to form small alcove-like eye candy sections. Not to mention it's even orientated the same way as in the original level, i.e. you have to fly down to reach the chamber

Lightwolf, for what it's worth I liked that map and especially what you did to change up that room. It looks really nice now.

Alter-Fox wrote:Lightwolf, for what it's worth I liked that map and especially what you did to change up that room. It looks really nice now.

As did I, 'twas quite a nice level. Now I'm waiting for Coolyard Station

EDIT:

Also, I've only just flown through Space Station U'denyor again, and a marvelous level it is indeed - I'll happily include it too, under the previously stated condition that you expand the level. The areas beyond the blue and yellow doors would be perfect choices, obviously. Also, I think the name should be changed from "Space" station to something else - as that, along with the level's layout, makes one think it's an actual space station in the orbit, while D2 levels should generally be mines embedded in planetary bodies.

I think it's worth mentioning that from looking at it, at least two parts from Udenyor were taken from Vertigo levels. The side with the blue key was lifted from the end area for Level 17, and the blue door area is a slight alteration from Level 15's starting area. I realize they were altered slightly, but I have my doubts about other parts of the level... It doesn't feel like it was all made by the same author, just looking at it. That's not to say you aren't learning slowly, LightWolf, but you'd still be much better off trying to experiment by observing how areas were put together rather than lifting them directly. Reimagining components of levels to make new ideas is more of the approach you should be taking, not just trying to disguise the source material but turning it into something new.

Naphtha wrote:I think it's worth mentioning that from looking at it, at least two parts from Udenyor were taken from Vertigo levels. The side with the blue key was lifted from the end area for Level 17, and the blue door area is a slight alteration from Level 15's starting area. I realize they were altered slightly, but I have my doubts about other parts of the level... It doesn't feel like it was all made by the same author, just looking at it. That's not to say you aren't learning slowly, LightWolf, but you'd still be much better off trying to experiment by observing how areas were put together rather than lifting them directly. Reimagining components of levels to make new ideas is more of the approach you should be taking, not just trying to disguise the source material but turning it into something new.

Great catch! That's why I need you, guys! I can't know all that crap myself, haha

Again: NO RIPOFFS. This project is about having something new. If you don't feel you're ready to make a high quality level without using other people's work, then you're not ready for this project, simple as.

In other news, I've gotten back to work on trying to figure out Secret Level 3. The name kind of had me going for some long tunnels that descend deeper into an abyss, but I think I've come up with an idea where the reactor is somewhat central to the level, but grated off along with a bunch of stronger weapons and powerups. I'm tempted to use some of the white facility/moonbase-type textures if you don't think it's too much of a theme-breaker, but I can't really remember it being used on water levels in Counterstrike (just a few in Maximum and Vertigo). Feedback would be nice on what I have so far.

Naphtha wrote:In other news, I've gotten back to work on trying to figure out Secret Level 3. The name kind of had me going for some long tunnels that descend deeper into an abyss, but I think I've come up with an idea where the reactor is somewhat central to the level, but grated off along with a bunch of stronger weapons and powerups. I'm tempted to use some of the white facility/moonbase-type textures if you don't think it's too much of a theme-breaker, but I can't really remember it being used on water levels in Counterstrike (just a few in Maximum and Vertigo). Feedback would be nice on what I have so far.

White "laboratory" textures as I like to call them were also used sparingly in the Quartzon levels, I think. Anyway, I don't think they'd be a theme breaker. I'll check out what you have, just upload it to dropbox or make it otherwise available to me.

Just to leave it here: I'd really like there to be at least 4 levels in the mission pack which are predominantly or to a significant extent textured with the lab textures. There are plenty of doodad textures which could be used to amplify the feel, but memories of levels like 2 or 18 from D1 are very fond, I think these textures hold quite a bit of Descent's retro charm.

I've practically finished Coolyard, and should have it up soon. I also am making good progress on Fata Morgana Tunnels (as usual, if someone beats me to it, they can have it). As for Fata, I went for a Baloris Prime countdown approach (let me know if another texture scheme would be better suited for the level). And no one can forget my simply evil Fusion and Shaker puzzles .

LightWolf wrote:I've practically finished Coolyard, and should have it up soon. I also am making good progress on Fata Morgana Tunnels (as usual, if someone beats me to it, they can have it). As for Fata, I went for a Baloris Prime countdown approach (let me know if another texture scheme would be better suited for the level). And no one can forget my simply evil Fusion and Shaker puzzles .

Puzzles shouldn't be insanely hard or counter-intuitive. Too much frustration simply discourages people from trying more times.

So I've heard from someone that this project could use some more help. I've been getting back into level editing, and I was wondering, is there anything I can assist with? Any levels that need doing? I'd love to take a shot at it.

Kaizerwolf wrote:So I've heard from someone that this project could use some more help. I've been getting back into level editing, and I was wondering, is there anything I can assist with? Any levels that need doing? I'd love to take a shot at it.

You are very welcome to try, of course! Just check out the level listing and see some slot which hasn't been claimed yet and let me know if you're interested in making a level for that slot. More than one slot to claim is fine too of course, if you intend to deliver

As for the guidelines, I think the OP is pretty exhaustive on that.

I also saw earlier in the thread that you were thinking of having high quality music on this? Is someone going to write midi tracks for in-game, and then have high quality tracks produced outside? Or were you thinking along the lines of just original songs?

EDIT;

If it's alright, I'd like to take on Level 41: Beta Ceti 5: Sheltem Mech Factory. I've read over the OP, but I still have a couple questions. What texture style would this level be in? I think it's the green selection but part of me thinks Zeta Aquilae is the primarily green style. Also, in terms of design, can I get creative with monitors placements, and aesthetic design choices (panels, manufactured-looking corridors, the more robotic/metal textures, etc)? I just want to have all my bases covered before I begin any work.

Kaizerwolf wrote:I also saw earlier in the thread that you were thinking of having high quality music on this? Is someone going to write midi tracks for in-game, and then have high quality tracks produced outside? Or were you thinking along the lines of just original songs?

Well, it would sure be nice to have an original soundtrack, but I know really well how much work making one takes. I'm thinking of resolving it like Descent 2 did - it did have a built-in MIDI soundtrack, but also music playable from a CD. So the mission will definitely be using primarily the MIDI tracks from Descent 1 and 2. I believe there were 22 level tracks in D1 and 4 in D2 which makes it a total of 26 tracks. The mission briefings will use the iconic D1 briefing tune for sure. (I'm just thinking of where to use the D2 one in that case, haha )

If someone would be so kind to make an original soundtrack on top of that, it could obviously be added on to the mission.

If it's alright, I'd like to take on Level 41: Beta Ceti 5: Sheltem Mech Factory. I've read over the OP, but I still have a couple questions. What texture style would this level be in? I think it's the green selection but part of me thinks Zeta Aquilae is the primarily green style.

Zeta Aquilae is not primarily green, it's Puuma Sphere that's primarily green. Zeta Aquilae is a mishmash of Fire, Ice and Descent 1 to make things simple. Gosh, why am I even explaining that, I'm sure you've played the game

As for Sheltem Mech Factory, what theme should it be? It's in the Vertigo section, so that gives you the most liberty out of all the themes. Vertigo was always free-for-all, kinda like Descent 1 but you can also use all the good new stuff that D2 has brought to the table. The theme is entirely up to you.

Also, in terms of design, can I get creative with monitors placements, and aesthetic design choices (panels, manufactured-looking corridors, the more robotic/metal textures, etc)? I just want to have all my bases covered before I begin any work.

Sure. You're free to use the materials I've provided: POG files with D1 monitors for the D2 PIG palettes, and exported D1-exclusive textures. You're encouraged to use a lot of the latter - my personal little dream for this mission is to see the D1 textures all the way through - for example there's plenty of those white doodad textures to spice up the white techbase/lab texture which weren't carried over to the D2 PIGs, but still fit perfectly well when imported.

As for unorthodox geometry - Vertigo was a mission that in and of itself pushed the boundaries of it quite far. So you are pretty much free to do as you please. But just remember that this is after all a tribute mission, so the stuff you make shouldn't vary too wildly from what was delivered by Parallax. Many modern missions such as The Apocalyptic Factor or TEW do cross over those boundaries - while very creative and inventive, it's something too advanced for a mission built to invoke nostalgia. Just keep that in mind and you'll be fine

EDIT:

Before you choose the palette file, just remember that we now have a D1-like palette at our disposal too. If you think it would best fit the theme, go for it. Some D2-introduced textures look really sweet while using that palette.