DescentBB

Okay cool, I enjoy freedom! I'll try to work on something that keeps a Descent feel; I'm not quite as experienced as the TEW creators.

As for the POG files, how do I import them, exactly? I use DLE-XP, and I've put the POG file in the mission files section, but the textures are a very badly converted bmp type; they're all mis-colored and nasty looking. Am I doing it wrong?

Kaizerwolf wrote:Okay cool, I enjoy freedom! I'll try to work on something that keeps a Descent feel; I'm not quite as experienced as the TEW creators.

As for the POG files, how do I import them, exactly? I use DLE-XP, and I've put the POG file in the mission files section, but the textures are a very badly converted bmp type; they're all mis-colored and nasty looking. Am I doing it wrong?

It should work fine - if it doesn't, make sure to update your DLE to the latest version, that kind of support has only been added relatively recently.

Also make sure you're using the appropriate POG for the palette. If you're using Groupa, you'll need POG number 1 and if using Alien 2, you'll need file number 6 (D1 is nr 7). They've been specifically optimized for their respective palettes and the imported textures should look as good as it gets with them.

Xfing wrote:

Kaizerwolf wrote:Okay cool, I enjoy freedom! I'll try to work on something that keeps a Descent feel; I'm not quite as experienced as the TEW creators.

As for the POG files, how do I import them, exactly? I use DLE-XP, and I've put the POG file in the mission files section, but the textures are a very badly converted bmp type; they're all mis-colored and nasty looking. Am I doing it wrong?

It should work fine - if it doesn't, make sure to update your DLE to the latest version, that kind of support has only been added relatively recently.

Also make sure you're using the appropriate POG for the palette. If you're using Groupa, you'll need POG number 1 and if using Alien 2, you'll need file number 6 (D1 is nr 7). They've been specifically optimized for their respective palettes and the imported textures should look as good as it gets with them.

Ah, I did not realize I had to switch between PIGs. I tried to load #7 while using Groupa. My bad!

At least it's easy to re-import a POG. I would be a little worried about the textures that get replaced but if you really want them I guess you can modify the POG for that map.
I'm still thinking the soundtrack could be done kinda like the Descent Community album, we do have quite a few talented musicians in the community after all. It would be really cool to get them all involved on something and maybe even get a couple vocal tracks, at the very least vocal like Ratzez (or we could go all Sonic and The Secret Rings).

Alter-Fox wrote:At least it's easy to re-import a POG. I would be a little worried about the textures that get replaced but if you really want them I guess you can modify the POG for that map.
I'm still thinking the soundtrack could be done kinda like the Descent Community album, we do have quite a few talented musicians in the community after all. It would be really cool to get them all involved on something and maybe even get a couple vocal tracks, at the very least vocal like Ratzez (or we could go all Sonic and The Secret Rings).

I'd be down to submit songs for a Descent Community Album. Or even songs for this mission set.

Alter-Fox wrote:At least it's easy to re-import a POG. I would be a little worried about the textures that get replaced but if you really want them I guess you can modify the POG for that map.

The POG is only an initial template, a frame if you will. You just use it to start out, obviously you can add or remove textures as you see fit from there.

I'm still thinking the soundtrack could be done kinda like the Descent Community album, we do have quite a few talented musicians in the community after all. It would be really cool to get them all involved on something and maybe even get a couple vocal tracks, at the very least vocal like Ratzez (or we could go all Sonic and The Secret Rings).

I do some electronica too, but with the kind of time I have it takes me months to make one track. I'm in the middle of making one atmospheric drum 'n' bass/dubstep track and it's taking forever, so I probably would turn out quite lacking in the deadlines department, haha.

Kaizerwolf wrote: I'd be down to submit songs for a Descent Community Album. Or even songs for this mission set.

The point is, those would be the same thing.
We've got plenty of time to work out the details, if you're interested in giving some input on how it could work I'm made entirely of ears.

...that is how you say it right?

Also Xfing, you have lots of other things to do on this project and it's going to be probably another year before it starts needing a soundtrack. Let yourself off the hook a bit. Your level designs are great and that's the thing you need before you can have anything soundtrack-wise apart from a few random music tracks floating around the internet.
I'll be working on Sol Contingency and probably the new Olympia Gold in the meantime (plus my day job) so don't worry I'm not lacking things to do in the meantime.

Alter-Fox wrote:
Also Xfing, you have lots of other things to do on this project and it's going to be probably another year before it starts needing a soundtrack. Let yourself off the hook a bit. Your level designs are great and that's the thing you need before you can have anything soundtrack-wise apart from a few random music tracks floating around the internet.

Sure, that's why I said I'd rather not start on another thing - the more things you start, the less you'll likely finish so yeah, I'll just stick to level making for the time being. Even that has been moving along quite slowly in my case recently, but luckily other people have picked up the slack a bit too. Not to mention that I'll have to do secondary editing for Lightwolf's maps, beta testing, the briefings and all that stuff, but I'm not concerning myself with any of those yet

I threw a couple of screenshots onto Dropbox, in a folder called Screenshots. Can you take a look and let me know if it's too busy, or it isn't quite the look you were hoping for? I'm really enjoying making this, but I don't want to get too far and have it not be the right kinda thing!

Screen one is a hallway to the reactor room, and screen two is part of a main hub.

In my opinion, although it's not the final say, all looks good except those lights hanging from the ceiling are a little bit off from parallax's art style... they'd probably have put the lights in a recess instead of hanging the geometry from the walls. (Walls, ceiling, what's the difference!)

Yeah, the hanging lights are a bit too D2X-XL adventurous, but otherwise this looks quite in line with Vertigo, so it's all good.

I thought you guys might say that about the lights. The Descent 1 door lights fit so well as in a 20x20x5 space, which is great for building. Descent 2's door lights need 20x20x7 or more to fill a side.

Okay, I can change them and make them recessed. Hopefully I won't be too pressed for cubes, I still have to do blue, yellow and red key areas.

The "thin" D2 lights are 24 pixels (7.5 level units), while the "thick" ones are 26 pixels (8.125).

You can always make the segment thinner and cut off a bit of the texture anyway.

What annoys me is that most light textures and similar ones actually have the problem of not being entirely optimized for the standard cube width - with standard dimensions there usually are several pixels of the texture starting on the other side of the wall, which is why we need to alter the dimensions or add new cubes altogether. Kinda sux but w/e.

Should I make this level co-op compatible? I didn't see anywhere in the OP about Co-Op stuff, the starting area will change a bit if it is/is not.

You might as well, all the maps I built work with co-op.

Kaizerwolf wrote:Should I make this level co-op compatible? I didn't see anywhere in the OP about Co-Op stuff, the starting area will change a bit if it is/is not.

Why not. I imagine we'll optimize all the maps for more player starting points once we're done with them. Both D1 and D2 had it.

Okay, map is coming along well. Optimized for co-op, fixed the lights in the red tunnel. I'm polishing and finishing up the red key area, and I still need to build the reactor room. New screens are on drop box.

2-1 is the combo blue/yellow key area. You're looking at the yellow key area, the tunnels above the player hold access to the blue key.

2-2 Polished hub.

2-3 Unfinished red key area. You can see there's some alignment to do with the strips in the back right, and some unfinished texturing. This area is not done yet, I've got to figure out where to place a red key.

2-4 New reactor tunnel. I took out the hanging lights. If I need some extra cubes, I'll make a beam running across the ceiling to free up some extras. It should look just as good.

So that's the progress so far. Hopefully this is still in the style of Vertigo. I've also been trying to make this level heavy on bot makers; I saw in the OP post you wanted levels with that "aw damn I gotta go there again" feel. What do you guys think?

Kaizerwolf wrote:Okay, map is coming along well. Optimized for co-op, fixed the lights in the red tunnel. I'm polishing and finishing up the red key area, and I still need to build the reactor room. New screens are on drop box.

2-1 is the combo blue/yellow key area. You're looking at the yellow key area, the tunnels above the player hold access to the blue key.

2-2 Polished hub.

2-3 Unfinished red key area. You can see there's some alignment to do with the strips in the back right, and some unfinished texturing. This area is not done yet, I've got to figure out where to place a red key.

2-4 New reactor tunnel. I took out the hanging lights. If I need some extra cubes, I'll make a beam running across the ceiling to free up some extras. It should look just as good.

So that's the progress so far. Hopefully this is still in the style of Vertigo. I've also been trying to make this level heavy on bot makers; I saw in the OP post you wanted levels with that "aw damn I gotta go there again" feel. What do you guys think?

Just checked the screenshots and man, do they look suh-weeeeet! Powerful D1 vibe to that level, definitely what we want, and in spades! For subsequent screenshots, feel free to just paste them into the thread. Use postimage.org, they provide very long lasting hosting and are very easy to use. All the screens I've put up in this thread are from there - besides not all people have access to the dropbox folder.

Many robot makers are fine, since this mission is longer than both D1 and D2 the difficulty of the Vertigo portion will in general have to be ludicrous - even more so than the hardest levels of D1 such as 19, 22 or S3.

Also love how you've used the D1 "heart valve" door and the doorlights. Looking at the screenshots I think that a level using such a texture theme would probably look best using the custom D1 palette Pumo made. Is that the one you're using? If not, maybe you should consider it.

Also, have you downloaded the little thingy from the thread below? It really brings back the D1 feels when playing the game, it'll go perfectly with this level.

http://descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=21386

Xfing wrote: Just checked the screenshots and man, do they look suh-weeeeet! Powerful D1 vibe to that level, definitely what we want, and in spades! For subsequent screenshots, feel free to just paste them into the thread. Use postimage.org, they provide very long lasting hosting and are very easy to use. All the screens I've put up in this thread are from there - besides not all people have access to the dropbox folder.

Many robot makers are fine, since this mission is longer than both D1 and D2 the difficulty of the Vertigo portion will in general have to be ludicrous - even more so than the hardest levels of D1 such as 19, 22 or S3.

Also love how you've used the D1 "heart valve" door and the doorlights. Looking at the screenshots I think that a level using such a texture theme would probably look best using the custom D1 palette Pumo made. Is that the one you're using? If not, maybe you should consider it.

Also, have you downloaded the little thingy from the thread below? It really brings back the D1 feels when playing the game, it'll go perfectly with this level.

http://descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=21386

Okay, I can upload the screenshots and post them in directly. I wasn't sure if that was okay, so as not to give anything away to regular players. But alright!

I am not using Pumo's palette, but I certainly can! I think I had gone with D1GR1.POG but I'll try out number 7.

I will also check out that link, I miss the old door sounds and such! Thanks for the tips!

EDIT: Okay, I tried using D1GR7 (this is Pumo's palette, right?) on Alien 2, and the textures have a bad green pixel-tint to them. Have I done something wrong here? I was using D1GR1 on Groupa for the design, but I can't get this one to work.

Kaizerwolf wrote:

Xfing wrote: Just checked the screenshots and man, do they look suh-weeeeet! Powerful D1 vibe to that level, definitely what we want, and in spades! For subsequent screenshots, feel free to just paste them into the thread. Use postimage.org, they provide very long lasting hosting and are very easy to use. All the screens I've put up in this thread are from there - besides not all people have access to the dropbox folder.

Many robot makers are fine, since this mission is longer than both D1 and D2 the difficulty of the Vertigo portion will in general have to be ludicrous - even more so than the hardest levels of D1 such as 19, 22 or S3.

Also love how you've used the D1 "heart valve" door and the doorlights. Looking at the screenshots I think that a level using such a texture theme would probably look best using the custom D1 palette Pumo made. Is that the one you're using? If not, maybe you should consider it.

Also, have you downloaded the little thingy from the thread below? It really brings back the D1 feels when playing the game, it'll go perfectly with this level.

http://descentbb.net/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=21386

Okay, I can upload the screenshots and post them in directly. I wasn't sure if that was okay, so as not to give anything away to regular players. But alright!

I am not using Pumo's palette, but I certainly can! I think I had gone with D1GR1.POG but I'll try out number 7.

I will also check out that link, I miss the old door sounds and such! Thanks for the tips!

EDIT: Okay, I tried using D1GR7 (this is Pumo's palette, right?) on Alien 2, and the textures have a bad green pixel-tint to them. Have I done something wrong here? I was using D1GR1 on Groupa for the design, but I can't get this one to work.

The naming of the POG files is in the same order as the star systems in Descent 2. So D1GR1 is meant to be used with GROUPA.PIG, D1GR2 with WATER.PIG and so on. File number 7 is for Pumo's palette: DESCENT.PIG (which is downloadable from dropbox along with a matching .256 file). So yeah, it will not look good with the Alien2 palette.

Okay that makes sense, I'll try out using Descent.pig. I thought from one of your above posts you meant to use Alien 2, sorry!

Also, I just found out something super cool. Holding left control while moving the mouse in DLE-XP allows me to move on a vertical and horizontal plane. But, holding left control and left shift, I can rotate around an axis! I never knew that!

Actually you just need to hold shift.
Yeah, documentation much?

Not sure there ever was a particularly good guide to using DLE... DMB2 had a respectable tutorial and might have had a manual, but they're both greatly out of date now.

Sirius wrote:Not sure there ever was a particularly good guide to using DLE... DMB2 had a respectable tutorial and might have had a manual, but they're both greatly out of date now.

Yeah, and that's why my first level took me like 9 months to make, haha. The subsequent ones went much faster though.

Level is done, with 1 cube to spare! I was at 801, had to do some tiny trimming. Good news is, you can add a door to a solid block, and make it locked. I don't need the useless block behind the starting doors!

Keys and hostages are placed. Reactor placed. All co-op positions placed. Triggers set up for bot makers. 2 secrets. I don't have any switches or things like that, but hopefully that doesn't detract from the level too much.

I'll upload it to Dropbox later tonight, and hopefully it's to your liking. I had a lot of fun building it!

...you have 900 cubes, not 800.
Descent 1 you get 800, but in 2 you get 900.

Alter-Fox wrote:...you have 900 cubes, not 800.
Descent 1 you get 800, but in 2 you get 900.

Then I am not yet done! I'll add some more detail and maybe some new rooms. Thanks for the tip, DLE used to say specifically how many cubes/segments you could have specifically to the game. Now it just says 2,000 or 20,000 or something for any type.

Kaizerwolf wrote:

Alter-Fox wrote:...you have 900 cubes, not 800.
Descent 1 you get 800, but in 2 you get 900.

Then I am not yet done! I'll add some more detail and maybe some new rooms. Thanks for the tip, DLE used to say specifically how many cubes/segments you could have specifically to the game. Now it just says 2,000 or 20,000 or something for any type.

I've also noticed this - something for the developers of DLE to take note of

Waiting for the level upload!

No this was actually done on purpose by Karx since Rebirth supports maps with more than 900 cubes now... he got rid of the limit for standard levels; Rebirth still doesn't have its own level format anyway. So this isn't going to change.

"900, sort of, or 20000 if you don't care" didn't fit into the table.

Although on a more serious note, if you have any ideas how to better present this information, that'd be great.

Xfing wrote:

Kaizerwolf wrote:

Alter-Fox wrote:...you have 900 cubes, not 800.
Descent 1 you get 800, but in 2 you get 900.

Then I am not yet done! I'll add some more detail and maybe some new rooms. Thanks for the tip, DLE used to say specifically how many cubes/segments you could have specifically to the game. Now it just says 2,000 or 20,000 or something for any type.

I've also noticed this - something for the developers of DLE to take note of

Waiting for the level upload!

So basically, levels exceeding 900 cubes will work in Rebirth, but not in vanilla? Fair enough

Sheltem level is up on Dropbox, under level 41. Check it out and let me know what you think!

Listen to this track while flying through too, it makes it so.. eerie, I guess.

Kaizerwolf wrote:Sheltem level is up on Dropbox, under level 41. Check it out and let me know what you think!

Listen to this track while flying through too, it makes it so.. eerie, I guess.

I've flown through the level - my initial impressions are very good, but I'll give you detailed feedback later, as I'm going to the cinema in a minute! Definitely a well-designed level as far as the geometry is concerned, not many things to criticize.

I think I may start working on a music track for this in the next few days... I've got an interesting lyrical concept that wouldn't really work with anything else. Sort of a disguised riddle I guess, but the context of a game like this would give the listener an extra hint.

Ok, my more detailed impressions:

The geometry:

Very advanced and detailed, something I would definitely not be able to build, but also a bit cube-heavy, and the level is smallish. This is no big deal, as Vertigo levels in general weren't that big, but that's only fine as long as we remember that we also need some sprawling and cavernous levels as well, even for the Vertigo section. It's also pretty axially symmetric, but that's fine, as many Vertigo levels shared this trait. I would like there to be many really large and sprawling levels in the mission too - Naphtha's levels are a great example of how to make things big yet not boring. But this level overall is quite sweet and really writes well into the Vertigo portion of the mission.

The texturing:

It is very interesting, but also very D1-ish. As it is right now, yhis mission could in fact fit even better into the Solar System portion than the Vertigo portion, so reminescent of D1 it is (if not for the iconic Vertigo obsidian texture). Not a bad thing either, but perhaps you could change some textures to D2 ones to give the level a more Vertigo feel. Also, some minor things:

- You've used Groupa.pig, but for the texture scheme you've chosen, Pumo's D1 PIG would definitely be better (I could tell it wasn't that PIG that was used when playing).
- As for the doorlights, I think it would be better in most cases if you just put them at the sides of the doors, without including the ceiling and the floor.
- Also, you've used some self-destruct sequence monitors - which is nonstandard practice (Alter-Fox once reprimanded me for doing the same in one of my own levels) - they might look interesting and spice up the look of the level, but they're impossible to pop. These should be replaced with regular equivalents.
- Some of the monitors can be from D2 as well - it's not like all of them have to be D1 since this is not the Solar System anymore. Maybe you can revert one or two of your choosing to their default forms?

The secrets:

Here's where this level needs more work. What makes a SP Descent level really exciting to play are the secrets. In D1 there were exciting , sprawling hidden areas, while D2 made things more sophisticated by letting you remove walls. Vertigo was generally a bit lower on secrets than D1 and D2, but that wasn't such a good thing in my opinion. You can go crazy with switches if you want, it's Vertigo after all. The way this level is now, it plays way too much like a D1 level for this portion of the mission due to comparative lack of switches and triggers. I think you can figure something out

Xfing wrote:- Also, you've used some self-destruct sequence monitors - which is nonstandard practice

Normally I'm not a fan of conventions that seem to exist just for the sake of having conventions, but when you're trying to emulate Parallax, this is probably a good rule to follow.

It would be ok if you could still smash them, I think, Sirius. The fact that they don't get accidentally destroyed during combat (or purposely destroyed outside combat ) makes them feel decidedly different from the "normal" monitors.

Xfing wrote: - You've used Groupa.pig, but for the texture scheme you've chosen, Pumo's D1 PIG would definitely be better (I could tell it wasn't that PIG that was used when playing).
- As for the doorlights, I think it would be better in most cases if you just put them at the sides of the doors, without including the ceiling and the floor.
- Also, you've used some self-destruct sequence monitors - which is nonstandard practice (Alter-Fox once reprimanded me for doing the same in one of my own levels) - they might look interesting and spice up the look of the level, but they're impossible to pop. These should be replaced with regular equivalents.
- Some of the monitors can be from D2 as well - it's not like all of them have to be D1 since this is not the Solar System anymore. Maybe you can revert one or two of your choosing to their default forms?

The secrets:

Here's where this level needs more work. What makes a SP Descent level really exciting to play are the secrets. In D1 there were exciting , sprawling hidden areas, while D2 made things more sophisticated by letting you remove walls. Vertigo was generally a bit lower on secrets than D1 and D2, but that wasn't such a good thing in my opinion. You can go crazy with switches if you want, it's Vertigo after all. The way this level is now, it plays way too much like a D1 level for this portion of the mission due to comparative lack of switches and triggers. I think you can figure something out

Alright, for the texturing:

- I can mess with the .PIG files. I couldn't get it working right. What steps do I need to take to use it?
- The door lights. I liked using them all around the door, since I could separate texture changes more easily there, but perhaps I can find an alternative for the floors and ceiling.
- Self Destruct lights? I'll go through the panels and see what I can change, sorry, I didn't know!
- I guess where I had placed monitors were smaller than 20x20 sides, and the smaller Descent 1 monitors fit on those smaller sides. I can play around with it though.

For the secrets, this is always a struggle for my map building. I focus a lot on the level itself, and by the time I'm finished, I usually don't have the cubes left for a decent looking secret(s) area. I know my level is cube heavy (topped at 900 now) because I go kinda crazy with getting details in, like the amount of small 20X20X5 cubes I have is kinda crazy. I can't make any promises, as right now there isn't anything I can think of that I want to sacrifice in order to make a secret, or set up the puzzle for one.

I am sorry it is small, like I said, I kinda went hard on the detail instead of making the level larger and adding detail from there. That's definitely one of my flaws with map building for this game, but hopefully if I do another level for this set, I will work on bettering my cube usage.

It's unfortunate that we have such a tiny limitation on the engine; only 100 more cubes from Descent 1 to 2? Thanks '90s...

Kaizerwolf wrote:
Alright, for the texturing:

- I can mess with the .PIG files. I couldn't get it working right. What steps do I need to take to use it?

1. Change the PIG from Groupa to Descent
2. Remember what D1 textures you've added (if any) in addition to the ones present in the template POG
3. Delete the existing POG from the HOG archive
4. Import the POG one more time, this time suited for the palette you're using, so d1gr7.POG.
5. Manually change any textures not already changed in the POG
6. ???
7. Profit!

- The door lights. I liked using them all around the door, since I could separate texture changes more easily there, but perhaps I can find an alternative for the floors and ceiling.

It's been done in actual Descent, but it only looks good on doors in unusual places or located vertically. For regular doors placed horizontally just two doorlights just look better. As for texture separation, there's an easy workaround - you just temporarily change all the textures around the door to another texture except for the side most adjacent to it, press "Align textures" and you're done.

- Self Destruct lights? I'll go through the panels and see what I can change, sorry, I didn't know!

Yeah, the monitors you used were versions that under normal circumstances only become that way when the reactor gets blown up. If these versions are placed in the level directly, they cannot be shattered for some reason.