DescentBB

multiplayer ready?

ReadyMan breaks open the seal on a new 3dPro, flexes, and prepares to push 6 degrees of movement to the limit! (Vander, if you're out there, your reign of vile evilness is about to end...if you're not, well...all you villains, start being nice)

I guess i better start being nice...

I dunno,

I think all of us are kind of waiting for the door to fall out, thats whats comming from JBomb. No offence to H.O.S., but we've had "D4" from violition, that turned into Red Faction crap (They even came here trying to preach that "we feel you guys will still like this game too!", pft@that, it was as ground pounder as they come). We had "D4" form Descent players, that turned to nothing because parralaxsomeone wouldn't let go of the rights. We've even had other "exciting games that descenters would like!" (I forget the name with that one, but the company died with the game, the game started with an A) Koolbear even linked that games forum to the DBB! blah

So no offence intended to H.O.S., but through no fault of your own, you just have a very skeptical crowd here when it comes to "future" and "descent." Or even "games like descent".

I hope its great. But I have no hopes set on this game

JBOMB you're not an ★■◆●. In fact you remind me a little bit of a former version of myself. We all have the moments where our words take on a life of there own. The trick is to lay the smack down before them bend you over and shove both feet in your mouth. I know, I started putting salt on my shoe before I opened my mouth.

Drop me a line.

Zach

Gooberman wrote:I dunno,

I think all of us are kind of waiting for the door to fall out, thats whats comming from JBomb. No offence to H.O.S., but we've had "D4" from violition, that turned into Red Faction crap (They even came here trying to preach that "we feel you guys will still like this game too!", pft@that, it was as ground pounder as they come). We had "D4" form Descent players, that turned to nothing because parralaxsomeone wouldn't let go of the rights. We've even had other "exciting games that descenters would like!" (I forget the name with that one, but the company died with the game, the game started with an A) Koolbear even linked that games forum to the DBB! blah

So no offence intended to H.O.S., but through no fault of your own, you just have a very skeptical crowd here when it comes to "future" and "descent." Or even "games like descent".

I hope its great. But I have no hopes set on this game

Greatly understood. We too sat and waited for quiet some time and never saw Descent 4. Parallax had nothing to do with the rights to that, Interplay did. Not sure what the game was with an A but Koolbear is going to be helping us with the game.

I understand that a hope is just a hope until it becomes a reality.

Zach

Gooberman wrote:I forget the name with that one, but the company died with the game

nTrap?

Skyalmian wrote:

Gooberman wrote:I forget the name with that one, but the company died with the game

nTrap?

Ahhh... nTrap died because it couldn't find a publisher. That isn't going to happen in this situation for multiple reasons,

1) We are already in negoiations with multiple publishers.
2) If that does fall through then we will do it as an online publication.
3) If all else fails we will release the game to the gamers and let them take care of it.

Either way its getting released!

Zach

Ahh yes nTrap, must of been the AGD-Software that I was thinking of.

Too bad it died. It looked pretty good.

Such a waste...

So, when is beta testing startin? I'm ready to try this thing out! (watch me not make the list... doh!)

I still say we need to see some pictures. Talk is one thing, but to a skeptic, hard proof is gold.

Hi Zachary, Rice and the other HO team members. A hearty HIP HIP HURRAY to you. It would seem the hopes and dreams of Descenters now rest squarely on your shoulders now that Volition (Descent 4), ADG (nTrap), Strategy First (Zero G marines) and Orbital ('Descent' SomethingOrOther) have all failed to deliver.

That's a heavy burden to bear, I must say.

You have to realise (and I'm sure you do!) that Descenters are so passionate about Descent. We've had our hopes raised, and then, heart-breakingly, crushed, several times in the past.

The other thing is that D players are NOT RESTRAINED WHEN EXPRESSING THEMSELVES OR THEIR OPINIONS!

Am I the only one here who thinks that the single most important thing about a new 6DOF game is that groundpounders can pick it up quickly (with a mouse!) and ENJOY IT HUGELY.

It doesn't matter what else you do - but you simply MUST appeal to the groundpounders. There is no alternative. To alienate them is to sell 50,000 copies, if you're LUCKY. Unless you've only had 2 people working on it, and the game is a crappy knock-off, you'll have to sell an awful lot more than that to make some money.

But, crucially - as if you didn't have enough on your shoulders already - is to create a SUCCESSFUL game from the principles of Descent; TRUE 6DOF. It really doesn't matter WHAT we at the DBB think about your game, because there's only a few hundred of us, and what we think means diddly-squat.

As Descenters, we have to realise that while we are the core support of 6DOF games, it does not follow that we will remain so. If we hate the new game for some reason, but Quake Players find it irresistible, then the game will be a huge hit, and the winners will be "The 6DOF concept".

A world-wide hit would see, a "truer" Descent 4 (Hell, maybe even an official one!) being made shortly after a big 6DOF hit.

Implementation is the key, and mouselook must be native, AND default. To find a mode which allows FPS gamers to play (and enjoy!) without a joystick is crucial to the success of the game. And, coincidentally, I have some ideas about that!

Here's where I tear off into my own little dream world, with a stream of ideas, most of which are worth exactly what you paid to read them.

Despite the idea the WASD system must be "native" - Joystick users should be able to configure AZS D-Style controls.

Trichording for speed simply must be implemented, and that's a no brainer. No Trichord = Not a Descent-like game IMHO - and I wouldn't be interested in it. An Afterburner is compulsory too in my view, and having it behave like D3's would raises the skill level required to compete successfully.

Let's look at the skill-set FPS players would bring to a new 6DOF game - and what they'd expect to experience as a result.

They want instant-turning. None of this - push left and wait crap. That just sucks. (Well, not to us JS users!)

They bring amazing snap-aiming skills, and need to be able to use this. However, allowing Mouse users to snap-turn is an advantage, so drop the fire rate for mouse-lookers, or possibly increase the reload time for strong weapons, or make the strong weapons travel slowly, so that snap turning is not such an advantage.

Joystick users on the other hand, allow easier use of the 6DOF environment, and better control over ship banking - which is essential for powerful combat in a 6DOF game.

JS users can't play in a game where turns are instant, because the JS is a dynamic device, unlike the mouse.

JS users find it easier to trichord than mouse lookers, so the mouselookers need an "autochord" feature. Here I'm talking about toggling autochording to the use of the Afterburner, or when maximum speed is achieved. When a mouselooker hits the gas (as opposed to just the normal forwards command) force the craft into a down & left (or up & right) mode where trichording effect is at maximum for increased speeds for mouselookers. Don't make it 100% efficient though (say 75%, 75%) and let the JS users achieve 100% efficiency with a real trichording action.

An Autochord feature implies a "Bearing HUD Feature", which is another reticle of a smaller size and different colour, normally attached to (and invisible behind) the "normal" targetting reticle. When "autochord" is enabled, activating it would twist the ship's orientation, the normal targeting reticle would follow (of course), but the "Bearing Reticle" would shift off to the top & left corner (or whatever the true bearing was when autochord activated) and the player would then balance heading and ship orientation to make fast progress.

You'd make this feature toggleable for JS users too. That way newbies can get the feeling of trichording without having to do it.

When the novelty wore off, users would be ready for real trichording, and an corresponding increase is performance.

Next up: CONTROLS

ALL (and I do mean ALL) controls must be mappable. It was an unforgiveable error by Outrage not to allow remapping of the weapons selection keys. Forcing you to switch THROUGH one weapon to get to another is silly. Players need to be able to map each weapon to a macro, a combo, or a specific key. I'm thinking voice control here - a la "Game Commander". So that you can get to a weapon by voice control - or a single key press, no matter what weapon (or action) you want. Please keep in mind voice control. It is going to be BIG.

If you try for a weapon via the keys (as opposed to mousewheel) and it is unavailable or out of ammo - DO NOT SELECT IT, AND DON'T SWITCH TO THE ONE BELOW IT (OR ABOVE IT)!! Simply don't switch the weapon.

Make the mousewheel skip weapons that are out of ammo (or have this behaviour toggleable)

NETCODE

It doesn't matter WHAT you do with netcode - some people are gonna end up being pissed about it. To my way of thinking (because I'm a DSL user 17,000 klicks from US servers) the issue of LPBs dominating games simply sucks. Good server-side prediction should be incorporated into ANY netcode architecture.

Remember, if you give LPBs a big advantage in ANY netcode option, then ALL the online servers will run this mode. That's guaranteed. People set servers to rape people.

Any code should be good out to 250ms. Beyond that - who the hell cares?? But up to 250ms, good shots should kill - and that means the correct amount of lead making a hit.

See my articles at http://planetdescent.com/d3help/nolag.shtml and http://planetdescent.com/d3help/lagshield.shtml

Certainly, for non hit-scan (instant) weapons, the server knows when a shot is fired, and knows where it will be a long time before it gets there. I say, dish out the damage to LPBs who should be hit be slower weapons!

Accurate shots should be rewarded. It's that simple.

GAME STATS

PLEASE do not institute game tracking for stats! Ranks suck - and stats mean NOTHING. That's all.

Real Ship Damage

I like the idea of real ship damage, but suggest the controls simply become sluggish when things start falling off the ship. Disabling certain movements, like SLIDE one direction will simply make people break joysticks trying to slide in a disabled direction. And we know how senstive some of the newer sticks are to harsh treatment. (and not so harsh! :S)

Weapon Ideas

GOO CANNON - the goo cannon sprays glue, which causes ships to stick to surfaces, or become very "draggy" when grinding along surfaces.

This would be a great weapon in tight situations. GOO someone, then send in the Quad lasers when they touch a wall. Skill factor = high, because if you get hit with GOO, then you have to avoid touching walls, or suffer the consequences...

Technical Features

MULTIPLE MONITOR SUPPORT. please please please allow multiple monitors, at ANY resolution, or location. If someone wants to set up 27 monitors - let them do it! An INTUITIVE GUI is a must.

MM support requires the ability to specify the location of the targeting reticle, such that shots ALWAYS fall on the reticle. If I have dual monitors (and I do, on 3 PCs!) then I don;t want the reticle appearing half on one, and half on the other, with no way to change it! Triple head support is not yet wide spread enough to justify a fixed reticle location.

The second monitor, alternatively, should support the REAR VIEW, and/or any information graphics.

Dualhead (Hydravision, nView) is almost bog-standard now, and it's a GREAT selling point for the millions of users of dualhead cards.

Allow WINDOW MODE for the game, so that it will play in a window, or windows. Let people with only single head, see two screens, (or 4!) if they so desire. Then there's no arguments about "OMG YUO ARE SUCH A CH3ATING H@X0R USING 2 MONITORS!"

AUTO EYECANDY -- Please enable smart use of advanced eyecandy techniques. Please set a minimum FPS rate at which to disable FSAA and drop the Aniso level. OR, pick an FPS rate at which to start applying higher levels of AA and aniso. Make it toggleable so it doesn't upset game or hardware reviewers who only seem to care about framerate.

That's about it from me.

Remember: worth exactly what you paid for it.

Moby, write that on paper and publish it as your memoirs. Damn, thats a long read.

And please have a diagram somewhere on the screen that dictates what weapons you have and what ammo, like ut2k3. It's a real hassle to have to remember what weapons you've picked up and about what ammo they had in d3.

Mr. Perfect wrote:While I do hate missleboating games, I don't entirely like the old D1/D2 weapon tracking. I can remeber many a time where an ace pilot would join the game, collect all the best weapons, and then procede to beat the **** out of everyone else(who not only where below him on the skill tree, but where usually stuck with Level 1 lasers and cuncusion missles).

Perhapse a weapon system that keeps track of how many missles are allowed in the game, but not the primaries?

And that old D1/D2 hosting system rocked! If your game crashed, or your had to reconfigure your joystick you could just leave and come back. In D3 the whole game, it's kill counters, and the collection of players goes *poof*.

yea the weapon stealing is evil and a weapon drop button would be nice...

I was wondering how long it would take Mobius to write his "Report" .. ! It took Chris as long as 10 pages into this thread to reply ! .. a very well ruminated response Mobi' !

... Lol at the Goo gun .. ! How about caustic goo that slowly weakens sheilds while you try to get it off you , kind of like insects that barf their digestive juices onto their prey...

hmm hmm hmm ...

Liquid Fire wrote:And please have a diagram somewhere on the screen that dictates what weapons you have and what ammo, like ut2k3. It's a real hassle to have to remember what weapons you've picked up and about what ammo they had in d3.

I'd rather not have my screen cluttered with unnecessary things (you don't pay attention to what you pick up?). If High Octane decides to put that in, I'd like an option to turn it off.

Everyone has so many suggestions and ideas and their own .02cents about how this game should turn out.


What I'm interested in is how you you guys as developers envision this game turning out. What exactly are you putting into the game?

If people around here had their way with you, they'd have Descent 1 redone on the doom3 engine.

I suppose what I'm asking here is how is this game going to be set apart from Descent? Why should we play it, and not D3?

nevermind those silly questions Capm. You're married now. Go run along and do married stuff now, you have no time for video games anymore

You have no idea how true that is becoming...

Sky, I was thinking something small and at the bottom of the screen. Nothing flashy and nothing that would take up too much room. But if you look at it, there really isn't much of a hud in descent. Shield, energy, burners, selected weapons. That's it. A small strip at the bottom of the screen couldn't hurt.

Mobius wrote:GAME STATS

PLEASE do not institute game tracking for stats! Ranks suck - and stats mean NOTHING. That's all.

You people can say that stats mean nothing until you're blue in the face, and you're right in a lot of cases, but I think that for a lot of people stats are a lot of fun. What might be good is a rank-per-account type of situation, instead of rank-per-pilotname. Have individual pilotname stats recorded, but count it all toward the account rank, which would be represented by any one of the pilotnames contained in it, in-game. I've always wished that PXO rank were somehow migratable; I think it'd be really cool.

edit: Make it similar to UT, in that not all games require you to log in.. maybe.

I'd be happy with D1 with a new engine
At this point, I'm ready to pay for any game with a good flight model and 6dof.

there will always be 57 people who play D3
however a new incarnation of a Descent-like game will generate many thousands of players.

There is a serious glut of fps games, and a dearth of anything else. ergo, this game is filling a void and will do well (if it's put together well).

"but you simply MUST appeal to the groundpounders"

This was tried with D3. and i can safely say it was abysmal. Don't bother appealing to the lowest common denominator or you'll have a McDonalds hamburger of a game.

Build it and they will come.

"and mouselook must be native, AND default"

if this happens it may as well be another quake.


"To my way of thinking (because I'm a DSL user 17,000 klicks from US servers) the issue of LPBs dominating games simply sucks."

So you want the whole netcode of the game to change just to suit you? Don't punish us because we happen to be closer to a server than you.

d1 on a doom3 engine would be the ★■◆● or any of the top knotch engines of today.

im like readyman, im ready to fly and fight instead of clicking and booming groundpounder style, my attention span isnt that long.

It can be done Ferno - games can be pushed out to work decently for high-ish pings and not penalise those 'LPB' guys the rest of us so fondly hate.

In my opinion if it handles 400 pings -decently-, and sub-250 pings fairly well, it should pass. Higher than 400 is a little hard to compensate for. In Descent 1 and 2 we didn't care so much because the weapons were made in such a way that it wasn't a big deal if you missed shots; however if the dynamics are like most games are today - with faster weapons that you don't want to miss with - it'll have to be fairly well done.

And Mobius isn't the only guy with that problem - there are a lot of people in Europe as well. And Asia. Unless you have a big enough community that they can congregate on their own servers, you'll want to allow them to play together.

"but you simply MUST appeal to the groundpounders"

This was tried with D3. and i can safely say it was abysmal. Don't bother appealing to the lowest common denominator or you'll have a McDonalds hamburger of a game.

Agreed. Totally agreed. D3's weapon balance and ship-to-level ratios, etc, were a result of trying to 'sanitise' the game to make it appeal more to the masses who were getting used to FPSes by the late 90s. However, not only did it fail to make the game particularly accessible, it also killed most of the flair that its predecessors had. Sure, they were ugly, some of the weapons overpowered and they had wicked ping problems on occasion, but the, uhm... feeling of omnipotence... yeah. That was cool. When you died it was as much your fault as your opponent's; there were very few things that absolutely had to hit you.

Doing that in Descent 3 is like trying to win a pistol fight by jumping around all over the place in plain view; it is possible, but relies on luck as much as anything else.

I'm sure some people won't agree, but there aren't too many who don't think D3 missed something, somewhere.

That said, I do think it may be possible to make the game completely accessible to FPS players. But because the result could very likely be something like the vehicles of Halo, I'm not so sure I want to go there, personally. I like to play something unique.

Edit: And the dedication of High Octane Software to their game really impresses me. Not too many people will do that kind of thing...

To solve Mobius's ping issue, make permissible client/server the ONLY option.

DCrazy wrote:To solve Mobius's ping issue, make permissible client/server the ONLY option.

wasn't P2P a little crazy anyway?

on the ping issue a game which handles 250 or higher could get more rookies on dial-up than before...but the more the merrier in the descent universe i guess.....

Just for the record, Zach I vote for:

http://www.mediafishcreative.com/ho/dirty.htm

Please put that up. I wholeheartedly agree that the amateurish quality of the current graphic detracts from any positive image you might hope to portray.

I like both sites, to be honest, the plain and the fancy one.

Anything is better than what is up now!

Aside from that, my condolences to everyone who is experiencing personal difficulties. It's important to remember to take time out for living life, especially in the difficult times!

Sorry I didn't get to meet you @ D3 Chicago. I was the guy in the "STFU" and/or "DAMN LAG" shirts, wandering around with a slightly dazed look in my eyes due to the unprecedented beatings I was given on LAN.

I know everyone is looking forward to the new game!

Just a note: If you're going to add mouselook by default, consider having a mappable "flip 180" key/button for us joystick users to instantly turn us 180 degrees on the axis of travel as indicated by the direction our nose is pointed. At present, only certain users can mouselook on most servers, and even then only by using an exploit, but to me it ruins the game when they can do that and I can't, and joysticks are part of the game in a big way.

Oh, and that auto-chording idea is dumb. You can chord just fine with keyboard and mouse/joystick. It's a skill aspect, and should stay that way.

Well, taking inspiration from JBOMB's "dirty" logo, here's a quick-and-dirty mockup of a website. It currently exists as a GIF image, but if you like I'll split it up for ya.

And yeah, all those "reduce this by 75% and make this 25.2% and make this the log of e divided by pi % effective if you're using a three-button two wheeled mouse with your left hand" ideas suck. If you REALLY want to appeal to a massive audience, make the game simple. Ever notice in the screenshots of HL2 there are TWO indicators on the screen? Health and ammo.

Yes, making every action configurable is an absolute MUST. D3 lacked the console features of the Quake engine, which is probably one of the greatest innovations of recent gaming history. Exposing everything via the console is a great feature.

Yet again, just my twopence.

OK, couple of things.

Yes, I agree whole heartedly that the current site has found a special place in our hearts, right next to the insert key and herpes. If anyone would like to take a wack at it email webdev@highoctanesoftware.com or call me.

Second, if anyone see's JBOMB please let him know that he is not a ***hole and that I would like to speak with him. Also, send my sincerest apologies if I offended him.

Thank You,
Zachary Briggs, Executive Producer
HighOctane Software
(269)506-3116 feel free 24/7

no worries Zach, I dont think Jbomb is offendable.
you can try, but it just cant be done.

As luck would have it...readyman is right.
It would be tough to offend me through a BB

I want to drop you a line Zbriggs..I want to help make the website of a new awesome game. I want to come up with some cutting edge ideas on how to get your message across to your gaming audience through the web. I want people to go to your website and go "whoa..did you see that" cause something happened on the screen that they didnt expect. Being a part of that to me is fun...I can show my buds the site and go. "I know you love tha game, did you know i helped build the site?..Ya dude..thats my bla bla bla right there.."

But to be frank. Im the skeptic here now. I trashed your home page and became the "dude who doesnt believe". So i will now assume this roll for a minute.

Zbriggs you seem like a really even keeled well grounded guy. Your posts have always been very cordial and positive. I belive you when you say yer on a mission. I think you love the game and want a new version of it.

But in this thread i have read some conflicting statements. You say "we have so and so as a consultant helping out on said game" but whats his face from outrage said "some guy called me with a bunch of questions regarding a project hes working on but i am not helping in any way". I think the "in any way" part is what bugged me.

You say multiplayer is all but done yet there has been zero screen shots posted of said game.

I hate to make this tough instead of just offering some help but i dont have time to spare on someone elses pipe dream.

Can you please tease this community with a screen shot of the game.. Can we get a sneek peek of its validity?.. Excite me... You want a hot game? Lets get a buzz going. EA games posted screen shots of battlefield 2 well over a year before it is to be released. Its smart...it makes people "cant wait".

"Man i cant wait for bla bla bla to come out"

So briggs...scare me with how cool this is going to be...Set this community on fire with some game teasers and screenies. This bb is on a .net for crist sakes. It wouldnt be tough to get them to all migrate to (and take over ) "the new d3" bb.

That is....if it was hot...worth it...the new awesome thing... Until i see more than dbb chatter i feel i have no choice but to remain a skeptic.

With that said it wouldnt take much to turn me right around and into a supportive believer. And a guy who would make cool things for your site just cause i love the Descent series and like making Descentish related things.

so...
ball = your court

peace!

Good form dude.

I'd like to help with your site, but unfortunately, I'm already tied up with the Midnight Squadrons' massive new website. Perhaps after I'm done with it I could help out a bit.

*JBOMB* wrote:As luck would have it...readyman is right.
It would be tough to offend me through a BB

I want to drop you a line Zbriggs..I want to help make the website of a new awesome game. I want to come up with some cutting edge ideas on how to get your message across to your gaming audience through the web. I want people to go to your website and go "whoa..did you see that" cause something happened on the screen that they didnt expect. Being a part of that to me is fun...I can show my buds the site and go. "I know you love tha game, did you know i helped build the site?..Ya dude..thats my bla bla bla right there.."

But to be frank. Im the skeptic here now. I trashed your home page and became the "dude who doesnt believe". So i will now assume this roll for a minute.

Zbriggs you seem like a really even keeled well grounded guy. Your posts have always been very cordial and positive. I belive you when you say yer on a mission. I think you love the game and want a new version of it.

But in this thread i have read some conflicting statements. You say "we have so and so as a consultant helping out on said game" but whats his face from outrage said "some guy called me with a bunch of questions regarding a project hes working on but i am not helping in any way". I think the "in any way" part is what bugged me.

You say multiplayer is all but done yet there has been zero screen shots posted of said game.

I hate to make this tough instead of just offering some help but i dont have time to spare on someone elses pipe dream.

Can you please tease this community with a screen shot of the game.. Can we get a sneek peek of its validity?.. Excite me... You want a hot game? Lets get a buzz going. EA games posted screen shots of battlefield 2 well over a year before it is to be released. Its smart...it makes people "cant wait".

"Man i cant wait for bla bla bla to come out"

So briggs...scare me with how cool this is going to be...Set this community on fire with some game teasers and screenies. This bb is on a .net for crist sakes. It wouldnt be tough to get them to all migrate to (and take over ) "the new d3" bb.

That is....if it was hot...worth it...the new awesome thing... Until i see more than dbb chatter i feel i have no choice but to remain a skeptic.

With that said it wouldnt take much to turn me right around and into a supportive believer. And a guy who would make cool things for your site just cause i love the Descent series and like making Descentish related things.

so...
ball = your court

peace!

now thats what we need support

pessimism has it's place, however, you dont gain anything by being pessimistic, especially when this appears to be something we're all interested in.
keep the negativity to a minimum.

dont forget:
"multiplayer is ready to play"

there'll be plenty of screenshots...

If this game doesnt pan out, this'll just be another miscellaneous thread in the wonderful world of the DBB.

right....as if a thread about a new descent game isnt the absolute perfect place for pessimism.

Paleeze

I understand JBomb's position... it does sound a little dubious when you look at it that way.

DCrazy - how exactly does permissible client/server speed up the netcode?

*JBOMB* wrote:right....as if a thread about a new descent game isnt the absolute perfect place for pessimism.

Paleeze

you have a good point but if this didn't work were no worse off but if it does, we have all to gain!