DescentBB

What you Don't hear, is that we buy an aweful lot of oil from Mexico and Venezuela.

True but we are on the outs with Venezuela, big time. But Mexico has discovered a huge oil field but it wont be ready to pump anything for a few years.

And we have huge reserves in the frozen wastelands that certain dimrims don't want us to tap...

Yah woodchip, let's drill that oil and it'll be ready in a decade...but who says that oil is going to stay here? it'll end up in China...what we need to do is get rid of the oil, make the Big 3 get into alternative power. Make it accessible...make it the norm...they have 10 years. But they won't do it because there is no heavy profit in it right now. They are going to wait till the end of oil to even think about it mainstream, then they'll charge out the azz because the R&D dept needs more funding.

How does Willie Nelson get around? Biodiesel fuel...the same stuff that Detroit still says will not work in cars. There are things that will combust the same as gas but they won't tell you simply because they make no money. There is no oil shortage...Exxon just shot to the top of the Fortune 500 list because of this \"oil scare\". To defend more drilling is simply assinine, it's not about being a tree hugger, liberal, facist, whatever. It's about reality, get off the wagon and get them to do something. But you wont' do anything will you woodchip, you're so fricken stupid that you'll follow whatever your republican sheep master has to say. People like you are the sole reason this country is in this current debacle with gas. Your narrow mind only allows you to think ten minutes in front of your face, think of the larger picture. We do not have larger oil reserves than the Middle East, we have a very small amount compared to them.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... 8rank.html

Look at that, we aren't even in the top 10. 2 of the top 5 countries we are or will be at war with soon. They turn that spigot off and we have no alternative, you might be walking you piece of trash woodchip.

Why thank you for the positively glowing description Zuruck. Having a bad day perhaps due to all the conspiracy theories clappering inside your bell?
Ding-a-ling, ding-a-ling

No I am bothered by a stupid person, you, making a stupid comment. Don't you have any kind of defense for your position instead of just calling the other side tree huggers?

Mobius wrote:That means that W does NOT have to do ANYTHING.

He can pass the problem onto someone with more smarts, and better credibility. (i.e. the next Democratic president).

The problem with letting the next guy handle it is he may not do anything. I'm not saying W needs to attack Iran but we just had a "smart" democrat president and he didn't do anything that would put him on the spot like W was willing to do.
Being smart doesn't necessarliy mean you'll have the balls to act on your knowledge. There is a long list of real problems that last smart bastard ignored....

I hope the international community will see Iran as the threat they are which is much worse than Saddam and also see W as a loose cannon and so they will feel a strong need to get off their sorry butts and really do something this time instead of offer empty threats and take bribes.

In the mean time W should put as much pressure as possible on the whacko's over there.

Yah Will, agreed. This thing could turn ugly real quick, it would be nice to have a stronger coalition than the little baby thing they have in Iraq. I don't think Bush is dumb enough to do anything right now, maybe after these midterm elections. Iran is obviously not a threat right now, otherwise we'd see Israel taking charge. I say containment, it worked on Saddam, he bluffed his way to making everyone think he had the stuff, it was the only way he could keep his enemies at bay. Sanctions do work, but there is no way to keep other countries from doing back end deals, they don't see things the same way we do. Are we right? Don't know, but we can't expect to be right every single time.

Containment.

Zuruck wrote:Yah woodchip, let's drill that oil and it'll be ready in a decade...but who says that oil is going to stay here? it'll end up in China...what we need to do is get rid of the oil, make the Big 3 get into alternative power. Make it accessible...make it the norm...they have 10 years.

Of course, there's a name for this kind of economic system (think - "not the free market"),
but, as the 20th century showed, it doesn't work !!!

But they won't do it because there is no heavy profit in it right now. They are going to wait till the end of oil to even think about it mainstream, then they'll charge out the azz because the R&D dept needs more funding.

Since I work for a petrochemical R&D department, I don't see the big problem with more funding for R&D. Trust me, it's hardly the lion's share of an oil company's cost structure.

ps - is it even possible for you to make and argue a point without going into a name calling diatribe. <--- note lack of question mark.

dissent, it's very possible for me to remain civil. but idiots deserve comments, simple as that. woodchip is a complete moron who won't think three minutes in front of his face and i don't like that.

As for the R&D, I'm not sure if I made my point. Here's the thing, fuel cell/hybrid cars are still in the early stages, yet, the technology for this has been there but the car companies will not implement this for the mere fact that they don't want to spend the money on it. Research and development should get as much as they need, but the companies in Detroit do not care to build a mainstream alternative solution. And I'm sorry, but I do not believe the argument that it can't be done safely, this country put men on the moon 40 YEARS AGO, I think there are minds still that can do this, but they aren't allowed to because the profit isn't there for them.

Dissent, it's not free market if it's extortion, making us buy cars and then forcing us to pay whatever they feel for gas/oil/parts is not free market. Public transit? Please, any time someone tries to envision European style public transit, it's quickly shot down because it would take their money away.

How do you people not see this?

Zuruck, several points -
(1) You can make the greatest, most technologically advanced, whiz-bang product in the world, but if you can't convince someone to buy it, you'll go bust. Cars, a technological advancement, did not replace the horse widely until Henry Ford used the assembly line to make 'em cheaper and Burton and others found a way to increase the gasoline yields from cracking of crude oil, leading to cheaper cars and more readily available fuel supplies to run them. Fuel cell cars right now still have range and performance issues relative to the existing technology of the internal combustion engine. Unit cost is also higher. In time all these costs will come down and allow them to become more competetive, but you can't mandate that they be competetive, regardless of how good a thing they might be for the environment. Hence the decision by Detroit et al to go with gas/electric hybrids - because those are cars that more people will at least consider buying.

(2) Fuel cell cars aren't pollution free, since they have to use electricity that is derived from the existing coal, nuclear and natural gas fired power plant structure. Not to mention the difficulty od the massive increase in demand to the grid if all existing cars had to be electric tomorrow (or even in the next 10 years). Takes a while to site and build a power plant.

(3) Nobody is making you buy a car

(4) Nobody is forcing you to buy a gasoline powered car

(5) The oil companies can't charge whatever they want for gasoline, or other refined products. This is simply hysteria.

To refute:

1) We have all the techonologies to mass-produce. We don't need a Ford to kickstart anything. \"Fuel cell cars right now still have range and performance issues\" Every think why? No funding, because, like Z says, no money to be made off it. If uopper management could steal a few billion dollars and mass-produce fuel-cell cars today, think they wouldn't? Oh hell yes they would. You'd see 200mph 500mpg fuel-cell cars next week! By the way, you ever notice that the hybrid/electric/whatever 'green cars' that actually have come out? You ever notice that, besides the Scion, they have the most hideous exterior design? You think that's an accident? Hardly anyone would buy an ugly POS such as them. What do they buy? Good looking gasoline burning cars. The plan worked perfect. Car companies can say \"But look at our line of hybrids! We're aggressively pursuing alternate cars!\" Yea right.

3) Buying a car is necessary unless you live in a city. Even then, you still have to have one to work outside the city. You can't do anything without one.

4) All the car companies are forcing you to buy a gasoline car. They have bought technology that would have helped out tremendously...and buried it. Sued the pants off every person who tried to make a better mpg engine. Only incremental changes allowed. Corporate Ethics and Policies 101.

5) Yes they can. How does a few dollars PER BARREL amount to a dollar PER GALLON.

Testiculese wrote:To refute:

1) We have all the techonologies to mass-produce.

Yeah, now.

We don't need a Ford to kickstart anything.

We did

"Fuel cell cars right now still have range and performance issues" Every think why? No funding, because, like Z says, no money to be made off it. If uopper management could steal a few billion dollars and mass-produce fuel-cell cars today, think they wouldn't? Oh hell yes they would. You'd see 200mph 500mpg fuel-cell cars next week!

Thanks for disproving your own point. If such car could be produced, the market would be ravenous for them, and there would be billions to be made in profits. There are none. Your conspiracy theory is an unproven sieve.

By the way, you ever notice that the hybrid/electric/whatever 'green cars' that actually have come out? You ever notice that, besides the Scion, they have the most hideous exterior design? You think that's an accident? Hardly anyone would buy an ugly POS such as them. What do they buy? Good looking gasoline burning cars. The plan worked perfect.

More unproven conspiracy hysteria.

3) Buying a car is necessary unless you live in a city. Even then, you still have to have one to work outside the city. You can't do anything without one.

So live in a big city. It's your choice. You may not like the choice, but there it is. And I know plenty of folks in large cities who get around just fine even on the pathetic public transportation that we have in the US. Sure, you'd have less freedom, and that's something the American consumer does not seem to want to give up.

4) All the car companies are forcing you to buy a gasoline car. They have bought technology that would have helped out tremendously...and buried it. Sued the pants off every person who tried to make a better mpg engine. Only incremental changes allowed. Corporate Ethics and Policies 101.

I meant gasoline-only. So buy a hybrid. I find your conspiracy theory to be under-documented.

5) Yes they can. How does a few dollars PER BARREL amount to a dollar PER GALLON.

Few dollars??And if they can charge anything, then why isn't gasoline $10 a gallon? $20 dollars a gallon? Answer: market forces.

Zuruck wrote:dissent, it's very possible for me to remain civil.

Then do it, or find somewhere else to post.

Some (full disclosure: Petroleum Industry) information on petroleum and gasoline prices, supply, etc.

http://api-ec.api.org/filelibrary/ACF146.pdf

http://www.factsonfuel.org/gasoline/index.html

So lets See Zuruck, your assertion that drilling for oil is a waste of time as it will take 10 years for the oil to come on line is off set by your wishful thinking that somehow bio-fuels is a better source of energy. So how long do you think it will take for alternative fuel sources to become mainstream? Do you see a rush of people buying hybrid cars? Care to guess what drove GM's earnings up this last quarter? By your astute planning methods we would wake up 10 years hence and be totally dependant on foreign oil, gas at $10.00 a gal with Iran sitting on a nuke stockpile and threatening us with no more oil unless we become a muslim state.
If you want alternate fuels that is fine but before you say no to drilling of new oil fields, I'd suggest you have a alternate fuel source already on line. Then again perhaps that is the difference between you and I...I'm practical and your not. Do try and come up with a intelligent reply mmk.

woodchip, why don't we get rid our our need for oil? then we don't rely on ANYBODY. Wouldn't you rather have that than pay, what's the word, islamofascists? Gotta think long time partner, don't think but three minutes in front of your face.

We'd have an alternative if Detroit wasn't stalling it. Why did they build the hybrid? Because Japan made them, the American companies didn't want to build the car, they are fine killing mileage and making monster cars that make them tons of money. Don't you think that in the last 40 years, they have figured out a way to make engines more powerful AND more efficient. No way, why would they? They boo when anyone talks about increasing the MPG, why, they don't make as much money. They have the technology, it's not a myth, they simply won't build it because there is more money right now to be made on gas. They will do it 'till someone either stops them or we run out, then they will charge ten times as much as they do now.

I'm not against car companies making money, that's business, but don't Americans deserve a little bit more than being raped at the dealership, gas pump, and everywhere else?

Oh and Lothar, don't worry, I'll never be civil to something like you. And you don't own this board, and being \"kicked\" off or something doesn't really bother me.

Zuruck wrote:Oh and Lothar, don't worry, I'll never be civil to something like you. And you don't own this board, and being "kicked" off or something doesn't really bother me.

Zuruck, it would bother me if you got kicked, so please just do as he says.

Bee

Zuruck wrote:]Oh and Lothar, don't worry, I'll never be civil to something like you. And you don't own this board, and being "kicked" off or something doesn't really bother me.

You little bully

Love both you.

1. Our president is doing exactly what we elected him to: Acting as our national scapegoat and whiping post. take a look at our recent track record with leaders. We elect them then kick the sht out of them.

2. We are doing exactly what we are suppose to do: Consuming. If you are an American, it is your birthright! revel in it!

3. The automobile companies are doing exactly what they are suppose to do. Getting rich on a dying concept while introducing a short term answer to a long term problem, that will hopefully tide us over while they come up with a better short term remedy.
Synergistic, keneticly charged CRAPPOLA.

4. OPEC is doing exactly what they are suppose to do: Getting rich off the rest of the world, while not contributing to anything valuable in their own countries or any other for that matter. They know the end to the oil dependant age MUST eventually come to an end but hey,lets live it up until the end! Pass me my gun of John Wayne and my 30 year old scotch! ROLL THE PORN!

Woodchip,

Consider who you're talking to. In my thread about the MM Zuruck belittles me for doing something about the problem, but refuses to do anything himself other than give up because it's a losing battle. Then in this thread he belittles you for not supporting or taking action.

From my thread:

Dont' you guys feel like you're fighting something kind of moot? You won't get Washington to back you simply for the fact that the corporations need that cheap labor and have your politician's ear more than you do. Get over it...you can't stop them.

Then from your thread:

It's about reality, get off the wagon and get them to do something. But you wont' do anything will you woodchip, you're so fricken stupid that you'll follow whatever your republican sheep master has to say. People like you are the sole reason this country is in this current debacle with gas. Your narrow mind only allows you to think ten minutes in front of your face, think of the larger picture.

Try looking up the word integrity, Z.

much love, though ....

<3

<edit> Lothar, I'm sure you're going to be inclined to delete my post because it's somewhat of a personal attack. I ask that you don't delete it, please. If you absolutely have to do something with it, would you mind simply splitting it off.

\"Thanks for disproving your own point. If such car could be produced, the market would be ravenous for them, and there would be billions to be made in profits. There are none. Your conspiracy theory is an unproven sieve.\"

look up the sales figures for hybrid vehicles and then tell us if they're being bought up as much as you say.

Barry,

Wasn't a personal attack and I'm sure Lothar would not have deleted it anyways. You gotta pick your battles, the Mexican battle cannot, CANNOT, be won by the MM or anything else. The gas price war can not be won because of a simple thing called corporate greed. I don't know why we let 8 countries control us when we could cut their spigot off completely and tell them to fack off.

How much gas you going to use driving around the desert?

Ferno wrote:"Thanks for disproving your own point. If such car could be produced, the market would be ravenous for them, and there would be billions to be made in profits. There are none. Your conspiracy theory is an unproven sieve."

look up the sales figures for hybrid vehicles and then tell us if they're being bought up as much as you say.

Testiculese wrote:You'd see 200mph 500mpg fuel-cell cars next week!

I wrote "Thanks for disproving ...". How does your question relate to the current hybrid cars on the market?

how does it relate? simple. it's a glimpse into how well they'll sell in the near future.