DescentBB

Jeff, man, you're trying too hard to nail things down that are intentionally not nailed down.

Let people decide what they want to try to \"win\" at, and then let them do however well they're able. If they've picked something they're good at, they'll do well, and if they've picked something they suck at, they'll do poorly. The point being, it's up to them to choose their own goals, and up to them to perform or not. It's not up to me to define your goals, or vice versa.

This is prescribing that we leave open as many different goals and paths as possible, in contrast to those who believe upward class mobility is the only worthwhile goal/path.

don't you think that any political ideology that claims to want the best man to win should make sure that each man starts out with at least a certain level of footing in childhood?

Here, I mostly agree -- we should try to put everyone in a position where they *can* set goals for their own lives and at least attempt to meet them, whether or not those goals have anything to do with economics. I don't think the federal government is necessarily the best group to rely on to put people in that position, but I think it's something we as a society should work for.

Will Robinson wrote:

TIGERassault wrote:I can imagine it now...
Jesus never existed. Martin Luther was just a character made up to make the Black people happier. What's a Ghandi?

Your imagination is running on a poorly tuned engine!

As far as I can tell Jesus didn't succeed in stopping the Romans and the Romans conquered the jews and ran them out of their own country. So I'd say his peaceful resistance is a struggle that still goes on today and it will be the end of the world before anyone knows if he succeeded...

Dr. King may be the one most noted for the civil rights struggle but even his peaceful methods didn't succeed without the use of force. One of many examples would be when President Kennedy had to send the federal troops down to alabama to challenge the state police and governor Wallace who were using force to stop black americans from attending the university there.

I'm sure I could find examples of instances where Ghandi inspired people in Great Britian to give up their imperialistic venture in India and police or British troops were required to quell the protests.
who knows maybe the brits were so well mannered they gave up the colonies without any internal riots or embargos or lockouts etc. but even if it's so that is only one measely example.

So I'll stand by my assertion that most international problems are solved by force or the fear of it. I'm betting the ratio is overwhelming that for every one Ghandi like figure that stopped an invasion, occupation or oppression there are at least twenty examples of an army stopping the same thing.
Go look at all the times a country's borders were defined and you'll find it took a war to bring the people to the negotiations.
How many times has a border dispute been solved by fasting?!?!
How many times has an invasion been turned back by a candlelight vigil?

How silly is it that I merely point out this simple fact of life and some of you get your panties all in a twist!

Wait; did you just say that Jesus failed at his mission, and King and Ghandi wouldn't have won if they hadn't used force?
I give up...

Lothar wrote:Let people decide what they want to try to "win" at, and then let them do however well they're able. If they've picked something they're good at, they'll do well, and if they've picked something they suck at, they'll do poorly. The point being, it's up to them to choose their own goals, and up to them to perform or not. It's not up to me to define your goals, or vice versa.

This is prescribing that we leave open as many different goals and paths as possible, in contrast to those who believe upward class mobility is the only worthwhile goal/path.

That seems fine in theory, but in practice it wouldn't work. For example, being lazy or greedy is an easy thing to do for just about anyone, while labour is hard. Do you really think people should strive to be lazy and greedy?

TIGERassault wrote:in practice it wouldn't work. For example, being lazy or greedy is an easy thing to do for just about anyone, while labour is hard. Do you really think people should strive to be lazy and greedy?

I don't think people should strive for that... but some people do. That's their own business. If someone feels like the best thing he can do with his life is emulate Homer Simpson, who am I to force him to do otherwise? I can try to convince him or inspire him, perhaps, but force him? No.

You have things you want out of life. Others have different things they want out of life. Let them.

I don't think Jesus was trying to stop the Romans or acquire wealth or have a lot of babies. He had different goals -- goals that led to him being a poor wandering Rabbi most of his adult life. Did Jesus succeed? Maybe not by some people's definition. But I'd say he fulfilled the goals he wanted to. If he (or MLK or Gandhi) was going for other goals, those might have required an army or the use of force or who knows what else... but those weren't the type of successes he was going for.

For the things Will, roid, and others are talking about, armies are necessary... for the goals Jesus, MLK, and Gandhi had, not necessarily. And for the so-called "war on poverty"... I think it's a stupid "war" to be fighting. It's important for everyone to have a good shot at life, but I don't think the best way to accomplish that is by trying to forcibly remove people from crappy conditions. Do your best to provide opportunities, but if somebody decides his goal in life is to do the most drugs and sleep on the streets more than anyone else, that's his own problem.

TIGERassault wrote:being lazy or greedy is an easy thing to do for just about anyone, while labour is hard. Do you really think people should strive to be lazy and greedy?

Lothar summed it up quite well. I KNOW people who's entire goal in life is to get by doing as little work as possible. I disagree with them, and I absolutely refuse to support them in their goal, but they have every right to try it. In the US anyway.

TIGERassault wrote:Wait; did you just say that Jesus failed at his mission, and King and Ghandi wouldn't have won if they hadn't used force?
I give up...

No, I didn't.
You have to examine the conversation in context. I did imply that most of the time the pacifist actions they undertook aren't the kind that stop the type of conflict that roid brought up.

For example, I know Jesus never set out to repel the Romans but roid never opined about the salvation of souls, he was going on about regiem change and the mentality of the government leader who would be using brute force because he was raised on He-Man cartoons.
You're the one who introduced Jesus, Dr. King and Ghandi into that context, not me.

You seem to insist on retroactively changing the premise of the conversation in the midst of your criticism so you can then find fault with my comments. Why you do this I won't comment on this time, we've already been down that road, but just in case you aren't actually doing it as a tactic here's the breakdown for you, see if you can spot where you got lost:

roid said of the alleged 'bad governments who interfere with people earning the food they need to live':
"Regime change should be on the table as a suggested part of any possible solution."

and roid said:
"heh, when you grow up on He-Man and GI-Joe, brute force to solve international problems make some kindof sick childish form of sense."

I thought about his blaming foriegn policy he disagrees with on some kind of childish TV culture mentality and suggested that it was based on the reality of human nature:
"Forget growing up on He-Man, try 'growing up on history' and you will find that most international problems don't get solved without brute force or the fear of it!"

Then roid quoted me and whined that he doesn't read my posts because they are too brutal for his sensive self, then commented on another that he also didn't read

I mocked his whine. (Don't worry, he's not reading this either)

Then you injected Jesus, Dr. King and Ghandi into the conversation and ascribed to me, through your fantasy, that I disbelieve Jesus existed, that Dr. King was just an invention to placate the black people and that I had never heard of Ghandi.

So now, because I dare mention that most international conflicts are solved by using brute force instead of peacful methods (and they are whether or not you can face that terrifying reality), and because I contend that using these violent methods are the result of something a little more substantial, complex and deeply rooted in human nature than the influence of He-Man cartoons on some member of government, that I'm unclear on the contribution or struggles of the three men you brought into this conversation.

I'm quite aware of their stories but no matter how great they were it doesn't change the fact that, in the context of roids regiem-change-in-international-disputes comment my claim that brute force is the usual method and it's not born of some 20th century childs cartoon cultural mentality is correct, and that is what I was talking about before you brought the three pacifists into the conversation and tried to cloud the issue.
Did you really expect me to take those three examples as proof that the following conflicts and their brutal conclusions don't prove you are off the mark?

* 2300 BC - conquests of Sargon of Akkad
* ca. 1720 BC - Kassite attacks on Babylon
* 1650-1600 BC - conquests of Hattusili I and Mursili I
* 1600 BC - Hyksos conquest of Egypt
* 1600 BC - Xia-Shang War in China
* 1430-1350 BC - Kaska invasions of Hatti
* 1100 BC - Sea Peoples harrying the Mediterranean; Dorian invasion
* 1046 BC - Shang-Zhou War in China
* 800 BC - Messenians Wars
* 722 BC - 481 BC Wars of the Chinese Spring and Autumn Period
* 701 BC - Sennacherib's campaigns in the Near East
* 499 BC - 479 BC Persian Wars
* 480 BC - 307 BC Sicilian Wars
o 480 BC First Sicilian War
o 410 BC - 340 BC Second Sicilian War
o 315 BC - 307 BC Third Sicilian War
* 475 BC - 221 BC Wars of Warring States Period in China
* 431 BC - 404 BC Peloponnesian War
* 395 BC - 387 BC Corinthian War
* 343 BC - 290 BC Samnite Wars between Rome and Samnium
o 343 BC - 341 BC First Samnite War
o 327 BC - 304 BC Second Samnite War
o 298 BC - 290 BC Third Samnite War
* 334 BC - 323 BC Wars of Alexander the Great
* 323 BC - 322 BC Lamian War
* 323 BC - 280 BC Wars of the Diadochi
* 274 BC-200 BC Syrian Wars
o 274 BC 271 BC First Syrian War
o 260 BC 255 BC Second Syrian War
o 245 BC 241 BC Third Syrian War
o 219 BC 217 BC Fourth Syrian War
o 202 BC 200 BC Fifth Syrian War
* 267 BC - 261 BC Chremonidean War
* 265 BC - 263 BC Kalinga War
* 264 BC - 146 BC Punic Wars between Rome and Carthage
o 264 BC - 241 BC First Punic War
o 218 BC - 202 BC Second Punic War
o 149 BC - 146 BC Third Punic War
* 215 BC - 168 BC Macedonian Wars
o 215 BC - 205 BC First Macedonian War
o 200 BC - 196 BC Second Macedonian War
o 171 BC - 168 BC Third Macedonian War
* 209 BC - 88 BC Parthian - Seleucid Wars
* 206 BC - 202 BC Chu-Han contention in China
* 135 BC - 71 BC Roman Servile Wars
o 135 BC - 132 BC First Servile War
o 104 BC - 100 BC Second Servile War
o 73 BC - 71 BC Third Servile War or Spartacist Rebellion
* 122 BC - 105 BC Jugurthine War
* 91 BC - 88 BC Social War
* 88 BC - 87 BC Sulla's first civil war
* 89 BC - 63 BC Mithridatic Wars
o 89 BC - 85 BC First Mithridatic War
o 83 BC - 82 BC Second Mithridatic War
o 74 BC - 63 BC Third Mithridatic War
* 82 BC - 81 BC Sulla's second civil war
* 58 BC - 50 BC Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars
* 55 BC - 54 BC Julius Caesar's Roman invasion of Britain
* 53 BC - 51 BC Parthian War of Marcus Licynius Crassus
* 49 BC - 45 BC Caesar's civil war
* 44 BC - 30 BC Roman Civil War
o 44 BC Post-Caesarian civil war
o 44 BC - 42 BC The Liberators' civil war
o 44 BC - 36 BC Sicilian revolt
o 41 BC - 40 BC Fulvia's civil war
o 32 BC - 30 BC Antony's civil war
* 40 BC - 37 BC Parthian invasion on Syria and Asia Minor
* 36 BC - 33 BC Marc Anthony' s invasion on Parthian Empire

* 1803-1815 Napoleonic Wars
o 1805 War of the Third Coalition
o 1806-1807 War of the Fourth Coalition
o 1806-1812 Russo-Turkish War
o 1807-1809 Anglo-Turkish War
o 1807-1814 Peninsular War
o 1807-1814 Gunboat War (aka Seven Years' War)
+ 1807-1809 First Norwegian-Swedish War
+ 1814 Second Norwegian-Swedish War
o 1807-1812 Anglo-Russian War
o 1809 War of the Fifth Coalition
o 1812 Franco-Russian War
o 1813 War of Liberation, 1813
o 1813-1814 War of the Sixth Coalition
o 1815 Neapolitan War
o 1815 War of the Seventh Coalition (aka the Hundred Days War)
* 1804-1806 Serbian Revolt
* 1804-1810 Fulani War in Nigeria
* 1804-1813 Russo-Persian War, 1804-13
* 1804-1835 Black War
* 1805-1811 Egyptian Revolution
* 1805 Janissaries' Revolt
* 1805 Haitian Invasion of Santo Domingo
* 1806-1807 British invasions of the Río de la Plata
* 1806-1807 Ashanti-Fante War
* 1806-1811 Christophe's Secession
* 1806 Vellore battle of independence from British
* 1806 Second Convict Rebellion
* 1807-1808 Janissaries' Revolt
* 1807-1814 Spanish Rebellion
* 1807-1818 Mtetwa Empire Expansion
* 1808-1809 The Finnish War
* 1808-1809 Santo Dominican Restoration
* 1808 Bantam Conquest
* 1809-1825 Bolivian Independence War
* 1809-1810 Tyrolean rebellion
* 1810-1819 Colombian War of Independence
* 1810-1816 Argentine War of Independence
* 1810-1811 Anglo-Dutch Java War
* 1810-1817 Merina Conquest: Madagascar
* 1810-1820 Punjab War
* 1810 Chilean Revolt
* 1810 Conquest of Hawaii
* 1810-1818 Amadu's Jihad
* 1810 Lamu Expansion
* 1810-1821 Mexican War of Independence
* 1811 4th Cape Frontier War
* 1811 Ga-Fante War
* 1811 Banda Oriental Occupation
* 1811-1812 Cambodian Usurpation
* 1811-1812 Korean Revolt
* 1811 Owu War
* 1811 Tecumseh's War
* 1811-1818 Egyptian-Wahhabi War
* 1811-1825 Bolívar's War
o 1811-1812 Venezuelan War of Independence
o 1813-1814 Bolívar in Venezuela 1813-14
o 1815-1816 Spanish Invasion of New Granada
o 1816-1817 Bolívar in Venezuela 1816-18
o 1819-1820 Bolívar in New Granada
o 1821 Bolívar in Venezuela 1821
o 1822 Republican Campaign in Ecuador
o 1824-1825 Republican Campaign in Bolivia
* 1812-1815 War of 1812
* 1813-1814 The Creek War
* 1814-1816 The Gurkha War
* 1814-1816 Ashanti Invasion of the Gold Coast
* 1814-1824 San Martin's War
* 1815 Second Barbary War
* 1817-1864 Caucasian War
* 1817-1818 Chilean War of Independence
* 1817-1818 Third Anglo-Maratha War
* 1817-1819 Zulu Civil War
* 1817-1858 Seminole Wars
o 1817-1818 First Seminole War
o 1835-1842 Second Seminole War
o 1855-1858 Third Seminole War
* 1818-1819 5th Cape Frontier War

1820 - 1829

* 1820-1823 Spanish Civil War, 1820-1823
* 1821-1829 Greek War of Independence
* 1821-1823 Turko-Persian War
* 1821-1837 Padri War in Indonesia
* 1823-1826 First Burmese War
* 1825-1828 Russo-Persian War, 1825-1828
* 1825-1828 Argentina-Brazil War, Brazil against Argentina Confederation and Uruguayan partisans.
* 1825-1830 Java War
* 1828-1829 Gran Colombia-Peru War
* 1828-1829 Russo-Turkish War, 1828-1829

1830 - 1839

* 1830 July Revolution in France
* 1830-1831 Polish-Russian war following November Uprising
* 1830-1839 Belgian Revolution
* 1832 Black Hawk War
* 1833-1840 First Carlist War in Spain
* 1834-1836 6th Cape Frontier War
* 1835 Toledo War
* 1835-1836 Texas Revolution
* 1835-1845 War of Tatters
* 1836-1839 War of the Confederation
* 1837-1838 Patriot War
* 1837-1838 Rebellions of 1837 in Canada
o 1837-1838 Lower Canada Rebellion
o 1837-1838 Upper Canada Rebellion
* 1838 Mormon War
* 1838 Pastry War
* 1838-1839 Aroostook War
* 1839 Honey War
* 1839-1842 First Anglo-Afghan War
* 1839-1842 First Opium War

1840 - 1849

* 1843-1872 Several Maori Land Wars in New Zealand
o 1843 Wairau Massacre
o 1845-1846 Flagstaff War (aka Northern War)
o 1846 Hutt Valley Campaign
o 1847 Wanganui Campaign
o 1860-1861 First Taranaki War
o 1863-1864 Invasion of the Waikato
o 1864 Tauranga Campaign
o 1864-1866 Second Taranaki War
o 1865-1868 East Cape War
o 1868-1869 Titokowaru's War
o 1868-1872 Te Kooti's War
* 1845-1846 First Anglo-Sikh War
* 1846 7th Cape Frontier War
* 1846-1848 Mexican-American War
* 1848-1866 Italian Independence wars
o 1848-1849 First Italian Independence War, Kingdom of Sardinia allied with other Italian states against Austria
o 1859 Second Italian Independence War, Sardinia and France against Austria
o 1866 Third Italian Independence War, Unified Italy against Austria
* 1848-1849 Second Anglo-Sikh War
* 1848-1849 Hungarian Revolt of 1848
* 1848-1851 First war of Schleswig (aka First Danish-German War, aka Three Years' War)

1850 - 1859

* 1850-1865 Taiping Rebellion
* 1851-1853 8th Cape Frontier War
* 1852 Brazil, Uruguay's Colorado government and Entre Ríos and Corrientes (Argentinean provinces)against Argentinean

government under Brigadier General Juan Manuel de Rosas.
* 1852 Second Burmese War
* 1853-1856 Crimean War
* 1856 Campaign of 1856-1857
* 1856-1860 Second Opium War
* 1856-1857 Anglo-Persian War
* 1857-1858 Indian Mutiny
* 1857-1858 Utah War
* 1857-1901 Caste War of Yucatán

1860 - 1869

* 1859-1863 Federal War (Guerra Federal) in Venezuela.
* 1861-1865 American Civil War
* 1862-1867 French invasion of Mexico
* 1864 Second war of Schleswig (aka Second Danish-German War)
* 1864-1868 Snake War
* 1864-1870 War of the Triple Alliance (aka Paraguay War)
* 1865-1866 Chincha Islands War (Spain against Chile and Peru)
* 1866 Austro-Prussian War (aka Seven Weeks War)
* 1866-1868 Red Cloud's War
* 1868-1869 Boshin War in Japan
* 1868-1878 Ten Years' War

1870 - 1879

* 1870-1871 Franco-Prussian War
* 1872-1873 Modoc War
* 1873-1903 Aceh War, Netherlands colonial war in Aceh (aka Thirty Years War)
* 1874-1875 Red River War
* 1876-1877 Black Hills War
* 1877-1878 9th Cape Frontier War
* 1877-1878 Russo-Turkish War, 1877-78
* 1878-1880 Second Anglo-Afghan War
* 1879 Anglo-Zulu War
* 1879-1884 War of the Pacific

1880 - 1889

* 1880-1881 Gun War
* 1880-1881 First Boer War
* 1881-1885 Franco-Chinese War
* 1885 North-West Rebellion
* 1885-1886 Serbo-Bulgarian War
* 1885-1887 Third Anglo-Burmese War

1890 - 1899

* 1890 Dog Tax War in New Zealand
* 1894-1895 First Sino-Japanese War
* 1895-1896 First Italo-Abyssinian War
* 1895-1898 Second Cuban War of Independence
* 1896 Anglo-Zanzibar War
* 1897 First Greco-Turkish War, (aka the Thirty Days' War)
* 1897-1900 Boxer Rebellion in China
* 1898 Spanish-American War
* 1899-1902 Second Boer War
* 1899-1902 Thousand Days War
* 1899-1913 Philippine-American War
* 1904-1905 Russo-Japanese War
* 1905 Revolution of 1905 in Russia
* 1911-1912 Turco-Italian War
* 1912-1913 Balkan Wars
o 1912-1913 First Balkan War
o 1913 Second Balkan War
* 1914-1918 World War I
* 1916 Easter Rising rebellion in Ireland
* 1917-1918 Russian Revolution
* 1917-1920 Estonian Liberation War
* 1918 Finnish Civil War
* 1918-1920 Armenian-Azeri War
* 1918-1919 Sochi conflict
* 1918 Georgian-Armenian War
* 1918-1919 Czechoslovakia - Hungary War
* 1918-1922 Russian Civil War
o 1918 Petsamo expedition
o 1918 Viena expedition
o 1918-1919 Polar Bear Expedition
o 1919 Aunus expedition
o 1921-1922 East Karelian Rising by Karelian Forest Guerillas
* 1918-1919 Polish-Ukrainian War
* 1918-1919 Great Poland Uprising
* 1919 Czechoslovak-Polish war
* 1919 Third Anglo-Afghan War
* 1919 First Silesian Uprising
* 1919-1921 Polish-Soviet war
* 1919-1921 Irish War of Independence
* 1919-1922 Turkish War of Independence
o 1920-1922 Second Greco-Turkish War (aka War in Asia Minor)
* 1920 Polish-Lithuanian War
* 1920 Second Silesian Uprising
* 1921 Third Silesian Uprising
* 1922-1923 Irish Civil War
* 1926-1927 Northern Expedition in China
* 1927-1937 Chinese Civil War
* 1932-1935 Chaco War
* 1935-1936 Second Italo-Abyssinian War
* 1936-1939 Spanish Civil War
* 1937-1945 World War II
o 1937-1945 Second Sino-Japanese War
o 1937-1945 Pacific War
o 1939 Soviet-Japanese Border War (1939)
o 1939-1940 Winter War
o 1939 Slovak-Hungarian War
o 1940-1941 French-Thai War
o 1941 Anglo-Iraqi War
o 1941-1944 Continuation War
o 1944-1945 Slovak National Uprising
o 1944-1945 Lapland War
* 1941-1942 Ecuadorian-Peruvian War
* 1944-1949 Greek Civil War
* 1945-1949 Chinese Civil War
* 1945-1949 Indonesian National Revolution
* 1946-1954 First Indochina War
* 1947 Paraguayan Civil War
* 1947-1949 Indo-Pakistani War of 1947
* 1948 Costa Rica Civil War
* 1948-1949 First Arab-Israeli War
* 1948-1960 Malayan Emergency
* 1949-1959 Chineses Invasion and Occupation of Tibet
* 1950-1953 Korean War
* 1952-1960 Mau Mau Uprising in Kenya
* 1954-1975 Second Indochina War
o 1954-1975 Vietnam War
o 1959-1975 Laotian Civil War
o 1962-1975 Secret War
o 1967-1975 Cambodian Civil War
* 1954-1962 Algerian War of Independence
* 1955-1972 First Sudanese Civil War
* 1956 Suez War (Second Arab-Israeli War)
* 1956 Hungarian Uprising
* 1956-1959 Cuban Revolution
* 1957-1958 Ifni War
* 1958 Lebanon crisis of 1958
* 1960-1965 \"Congo Crisis\"
* 1960-1996 Guatemalan Civil War
* 1961 Bay of Pigs Invasion
* 1961-1975 Angolan War of Independence
* 1962-1975 Guinea-Bissauan War of Independence
* 1962-1963 Sino-Indian War
* 1963 Sand War
* 1962-1966 Indonesia-Malaysia confrontation
* 1962-1970 Yemen Civil War
* 1962-1975 Dhofar Rebellion
* 1964-1975 Mozambique's War of Independence
* 1965 Indo-Pakistani War of 1965
* 1965-1996 Chad Civil War
* 1965-1966 Indonesian Civil War
* 1966-1988 Namibian War of Independence
* 1966-1979 Second Chimurenga(Rhodesian Bush War)
* 1969-Present Communist and Islamic Insurgency in the Philippines
* 1967 Six-Day War (Third Arab-Israeli War)
* 1967-1970 Nigerian Civil War
* 1968-1970 War of Attrition
* 1969 Football War
* 1969 Sino-Soviet border conflict
* 1969-1994 The Troubles in Northern Ireland
* 1970 Black September
* 1971 Bangladesh Liberation War
* 1971 Indo-Pakistani War of 1971
* 1973 Yom Kippur War (Fourth Arab-Israeli War)
* 1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus
* 1974-1991 Ethiopian Civil War
* 1975-1989 Angolan Civil War
* 1975-1991 Western Sahara conflict
* 1975-1991 Lebanese Civil War
* 1975-1998 War of Independence in East Timor
* 1975-1992 Mozambican Civil War
* 1975-2006 Independence War in Cabinda
* 1977 Libyan-Egyptian War
* 1977-1978 Ogaden War
* 1977-1991 Cambodian-Vietnamese War
* 1978-2005 The Aceh War
* 1978-1988 Ugandan Civil War
* 1979 Sino-Vietnamese War
* 1979 Libyan Invasion of Chad
* 1979-1989 Soviet war in Afghanistan
* 1980-1992 El Salvador Civil War
* 1980-1988 Iran-Iraq War
* 1981 Paquisha War
* 1982 Falklands War
* 1982 1982 Lebanon War
* 1983 Invasion of Grenada
* 1983-2000 Ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka
* 1983-2005 Second Sudanese Civil War
* 1984-1998 Free Papua Movement
* 1985 Christmas War
* 1987-1993 First Intifada
* 1988-1994 Nagorno-Karabakh war
* 1989-1991 Mauritania-Senegal Border War
* 1989-1990 Invasion of Panama
* 1989-1997 First Liberian Civil War
* 1989 Romanian Revolution
# 1990-1991 Gulf War
# 1990-1994 Rwandan Civil War
# 1990-1998 Tuareg Rebellion
# 1991-2001 Yugoslav Wars

* 1991 Slovenian War
* 1991-1995 Croatian War of Independence
* 1992-1995 Bosnian War
* 1998-1999 Kosovo War

# 1991-1993 Georgian Civil War

* 1991-1992 Georgian-Ossetian Conflict
* 1992-1993 Georgian-Abkhaz Conflict

# 1991-1997 Sierra Leone Civil War
# 1992-1997 Tajikistan Civil War
# 1993-1999 Burundi Civil War
# 1994 1994 Yemeni Civil War
# 1994-1996 First Chechen War
# 1995 Cenepa War
# 1996-1997 First Congo War
# 1998-2000 Ethiopia-Eritrea War
# 1998-2002 Second Congo War
# 1999 Kargil War
# 1999-2003 Second Liberian Civil War

So I'll see your three pacifists and raise you a few millenia of brute force!

So, whats the difference between the asterisks, oh's, pluses, and number signs?

No Will this isn't about you. In my first post i was talking honestly about myself, i was raised on He-Man and GI-Joe. Violence makes a kindof sick childish sense to ME, just like it does to most males. OK? not you, ME, or by extention all of us.

If anything i was a commentating on the continual patriarchal influences on human suffering over the millenia, and trying to leave the door open for people to think about alternatives - perhaps by experimenting with seperating themselves from their agressive male psyche.

As for the rest of your personal attacks, Shut up. You could make your points without all the offensive tripe, but you have repeatedly refused. So that's the way it's gonna be.

roid wrote:No Will this isn't about you. In my first post i was talking honestly about myself, i was raised on He-Man and GI-Joe. Violence makes a kindof sick childish sense to ME, just like it does to most males. OK? not you, ME, or by extention all of us.

If anything i was a commentating on the continual patriarchal influences on human suffering over the millenia, and trying to leave the door open for people to think about alternatives - perhaps by experimenting with seperating themselves from their agressive male psyche.

As for the rest of your personal attacks, Shut up. You could make your points without all the offensive tripe, but you have repeatedly refused. So that's the way it's gonna be.

OK, I'll buy that, it's about you and an interesting commentary at that. Forgive me for thinking it was another of your many drive by attacks on american politics after being hit by so many I guess I just expected you were up to the same old crap.
As to my personal attacks, if reminding you of simple facts of life and history are what you call personal attacks then I'm afraid I have no sympathy for your sensitive nature, grow some thicker skin.

I guess you won't be reading this one either though will you?
PS: I think mocking you when you are ridiculous should be exempt from the personal attack classification

Kilarin wrote:So, whats the difference between the asterisks, oh's, pluses, and number signs?

I don't know, I hardly read the list. I just googled for a list of wars, didn't even bother to consider how many might have been stopped by a pacifist either...but after glancing at it my original prediction of there being at least 20:1 against pacifism being the winner seems like a safe bet.

Roid explained a lot already.

Will Robinson wrote:Then you injected Jesus, Dr. King and Ghandi into the conversation and ascribed to me, through your fantasy, that I disbelieve Jesus existed, that Dr. King was just an invention to placate the black people and that I had never heard of Ghandi.

You actually believed that I thought those things? And you gave out to me for not knowing sarcasm.

Will Robinson wrote:Did you really expect me to take those three examples as proof that the following conflicts and their brutal conclusions don't prove you are off the mark?

All that proves is that wars exist, and are commonly used.

TIGERassault wrote:You actually believed that I thought those things? And you gave out to me for not knowing sarcasm.

No, I understood your hyperbole. but you sincerely held the example of pacifists as some kind of proof that my assertion that most international disputes involving regeim change are settled not by pacifism but by brute force.
You can keep dancing around the things I said and focus on trivial insignificant words I used to make a point but it is the point that you should have tried to address not your red herring.

All that proves is that wars exist, and are commonly used.

And if you could show me where a majority of them were resolved by pacifism then you'd have something to back up your whole introduction of pacifism into this thread....but instead we get nonsense from you.

Will Robinson - 1
TIGERassault - 0

Will Robinson wrote:

TIGERassault wrote:You actually believed that I thought those things? And you gave out to me for not knowing sarcasm.

No, I understood your hyperbole. but you sincerely held the example of pacifists as some kind of proof that my assertion that most international disputes involving regeim change are settled not by pacifism but by brute force.
You can keep dancing around the things I said and focus on trivial insignificant words I used to make a point but it is the point that you should have tried to address not your red herring.

Can you rephrase that?

Will Robinson wrote:

All that proves is that wars exist, and are commonly used.

And if you could show me where a majority of them were resolved by pacifism then you'd have something to back up your whole introduction of pacifism into this thread....but instead we get nonsense from you.

I can't.

And it's nearly impossible to list off all international problems solved without force, as too many things could be classified as a international problem solved without force.
For example, we're even trying to solve an international problem with peace right now!