DescentBB

The real indicator of whether the Spanish Socialists are sincere about fighting terrorism and simply feel that Iraq is not the place for their contribution is if they shift their troops to Afghanistan instead. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

woodchip wrote:As it is, I'm sure at the very least ETA now knows how to go about getting their long desired separate state.

The ETA is much disliked if not hated in Spain, and has been that way for a long time. Due to their past attacks, I believe a lot of people in Spain would already be willing to eliminate the ETA. However, this, could you say, new threat is new enough for them (yes... people do view things mostly from their own point of view and according to their situation, not yours, and towards them it is a new threat) that it hasn't got a similar reaction, at least not yet.

Furthermore, few people react very rationally right after such a disaster. Fortunately, at least the U.S. administration did 2.5 years ago. However, I previously only stated that, to some part, foreign politics are an extension of domestic politics, and even if it would have seemed rational to you, breaking the promise of withdrawing the troops in Iraq would have made the situation quite difficult for the winning party because that's probably what most people who voted for them want.

This use of foreign issues as an extension of domestic politics happens not only in Spain but also elsewhere, including the U.S., including the current government. It doesn't mean that I agree with it.

Oh, and yes, I also see a connection between Spain sending troops to Iraq and the attack. I don't necessarily see it as an attempt to get Spain to pull the troops back as much as a response to Spain's support to the USA.

I do agree that Al Qaida very likely sees that as a victory and that it's generally problematic, but it may actually have made Spain safer. Does it matter to Spain directly if Al Qaida has already marked them as 'victory' in their map? Of course it would be good (and IMO actually rather important in many issues, not only this) to play hero and think about the whole world more than one's own security, but that's not happening much in reality, and as long as others aren't doing it, it's quite difficult for one government to start doing such charity.

In Europe this 'war against terrorism' hasn't caught fire like in the USA just because of that. In the US it is strong because of the same thing. You wouldn't be really interested if it weren't so important to your national security; it wouldn't be your war. The reason why some European countries joined the coalition was mostly about maintaining good relations with the United States or about gaining international recognition.

Maybe it'll catch more fire here now, too. Interestingly enough, the initial reason may be because some countries joined it for other reasons.

You wouldn't be really interested if it weren't so important to your national security; it wouldn't be your war.

Well, expect more of the same. I think the war is being brought to your doorstep, and I don't think blaming Bush/Blair/Howard/Aznar is going to cut it much longer:

PARIS (Reuters) - France has received threats of a possible attack against French interests from an Islamist group apparently named after a Chechen guerrilla killed in a Moscow hostage-taking in 2002, the Interior Ministry said Tuesday.

The letter, sent to several newspapers, threatened "to plunge France into terror and remorse and spill blood outside its frontiers," Jacques Esperandieu, deputy editor of the daily Le Parisien which received a copy, quoted it as saying.

The ministry confirmed earlier Justice Ministry reports that the threat, which it said was sent "on behalf of the servants of Allah, the powerful and wise," mentioned possible attacks in France and against French interests abroad.

"These are threats articulated in such a way that they are being taken very seriously," a judicial source told Reuters.

The group called itself the Movsar Barayev Commando, an apparent reference to the militant who organized the October 2002 Chechen raid at a Moscow theater that ended with 129 dead. He died in the special forces raid on the theater.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... hreat_dc_4

"Because of this decision, the (our) leadership has decided to stop all operations within the Spanish territories...until we know the intentions of the new government that has promised to withdraw Spanish troops from Iraq," the statement said.

Yep, sorry, it's Reuters. Take it with more than a grain or two of salt but it seems AQ feels it is now the one determining the future in Spain. Notice the implied threat that *operations* will resume if the Spanish Socialists renege, as well as a *last chance to save yourselves* lesson to the other members of the coalition. Let's see if anyone else loses their nerve like the Spanish leftists.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... truce_dc_1

What will be interesting is to see how a non coalition country like France, will respond if a muslim extremist attack topples the Eiffle Tower and a couple thousand french citizens die in the process. How will this country handle the attack? Since they have no troops in Iraq, they can't appease anyone by pulling out of Iraq.
In Frances case I suppose they could lift the head scarve ban but I suspect they won't. The French populace could demand all muslims abiding in their country to leave but that would enforce the world view of french ethnocentrism.
What the appeaser countries have to be aware of...if they do not present a unified front, the extremist will successfully manipulate them to acceding to the terrorist ultimate desire of world control.

France isn't really a good example since it made the AQ hit list by its passive-aggressive smokescreen to halt Muslim immigration through the banning of Muslim headwear. Germany, on the other hand, has remained steadfastly anti-American and anti-Iraq War (as well as enjoys widespread admiration in the Arab World for it's past fetish for placing millions of Jews inside ovens). If a bomb strikes Germany, then there can be no doubt in anyone's mind that 1) it's not America's fault and 2) no Western nation can ever consider itself exempt from attack.

With the Iraqi interim govt. being established, what happens when they go to the UN and ask for security assistance? Will France and Germany now send troops to Iraq in the aftermath of the Madrid bombings? I suspect they will obfuscate and delay sending anything.

On a side note I see the Kosovals and Albanians are back in the news. You remember...that little conflict Clinton got us into to deflect attention from his favorite intern...the one our troops were going to be home by christmas...the one where we were helping muslims from being slaughtered by the Yugoslavians.
Funny how bin Laden forgot this. Funny how the main stream press forgot this. Funny how the Euros. forget this as at the time they (Euros)were worried about a Balkan flair up might extend into europe proper.
Don't be surprised if AQ goes into the Balkans and tries to stir things up. I still say we should have pulled our troops out of there and let the frog and the hun handle it.

In its statement, Abu Hafs al-Masri said it was calling a truce in Spain to give the socialist government that was elected Sunday, three days after the train attacks, time to carry out its pledge to withdraw troops from Iraq.

The group appeared to boast it had the power to change governments.

"We change and destroy countries," the statement said. "We even influence the international economy, and this is God's blessing to us."

The statement tells American voters that Abu Hafs al-Masri supports the re-election campaign of President Bush: "We are very keen that Bush does not lose the upcoming elections."

The statement said Abu Hafs al-Masri needs what it called Bush's "idiocy and religious fanaticism" because they would "wake up" the Islamic world.

Getting rather full of themselves now. And, Allah be praised, they support Bush for re-election! Who knew? But until I see some campaign contributions it's all just breaking Black Wind of Death to me. Hey, wait a minute, you don't suppose they're trying to pull any of that reverse logic voodoo on us, are they?

bash wrote:as well as enjoys widespread admiration in the Arab World for it's past fetish for placing millions of Jews inside ovens

... which, as everyone surely realises, has a whole lot to do with the present day Germany...

By the way, anti-Iraq-war == anti-American? Quite interesting logic. Not agreeing with someone (reasons aside) means being against them?

bash wrote:Who knew?

It would be quite understandable, actually. Those who lead terrorist organisations just want to further their own agenda, and as tools they need new supporters from the general public. Poverty, unrest, uncertainty and insecurity give the organisations a good ground to build on. If they can present the west - particularly the United States - as the enemy and the cause of the problems, the unfortunate people can easily be recruited. The U.S. support for Israel in the Israeli-Palestinian crisis isn't without an effect either.

Now that the situation in Iraq is unclear, they're sure to be putting their own spice in the soup there as well. Like someone said (I can't remember who), even if Al-Qaida (for example) wasn't in Iraq before the war, it certainly is there now.

The Bush administration can more easily be presented as an enemy than (from the point of view of the general Arab public) a moderate democrat government. Thus, it could nicely serve the political agenda of those who are actually in control of terrorist organisations.

It's an unfortunate fact of life that, even if Germany would prefer that the Holocaust be forgotten, the Arabs still recall it fondly and often cite the behaviors of Nazi Germany as an inspiration for future emulation.

I wasn't equating anti-Iraq War with anti-Americanism. You misunderstood. If memory serves, opposition to America in many areas was a prime component of German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder's election campaign, which occurred prior to the Coalition's liberation of Iraq.

Regarding the terrorist's stated desire for Mr. Bush to be re-elected, perhaps I was being too subtle in expressing my doubt. Here's a quote that illustrates that anyone with an ability to read between the lines can see they really don't.

[quote]The statement said it supported President Bush in his reelection campaign, and would prefer him to win in November rather than the Democratic candidate John Kerry, as it was not possible to find a leader â??more foolish than you (Bush), who deals with matters by force rather than with wisdom.â?

it seems to me that the bush supporters are the weak minded ones bash, you guys will closet support your guy no matter the issue, you dont' even think twice about it.

Watch out Z.. he just might call you anti-american.

Well I guess I am ferno. I think for myself and I don't just follow without questions. It's my right as an American to disagree with the government. Isn't that how this country got started? It's pretty sad that if you don't blanket follow Bush you're anti-American. Then again, you're either with us or against us right?

Zuruck wrote:it seems to me that the bush supporters are the weak minded ones bash, you guys will closet support your guy no matter the issue, you dont' even think twice about it.

Wow, youre an idiot.

Weak minded? Then what does that make you oh holy enlightened one?

Its arrogant bastards like you who I cant stand.

bash wrote:It's an unfortunate fact of life that, even if Germany would prefer that the Holocaust be forgotten, the Arabs still recall it fondly and often cite the behaviors of Nazi Germany as an inspiration for future emulation.

Well, to be honest, I can't really know. I'm not an expert of the opinions of the general Arab public.

So, you tell me. Does that sound plausible or just a childish and transparent employment of reverse logic

Ah, how cool it is to have the entire statement instead of two sentences. Yes, it sounds like the latter.

Top Wop wrote:Its arrogant bastards like you who I cant stand.

Most people on the conservative side just add a smiley as a "I'm not an arrogant bastard" disclaimer.

Don't worry Z.. you're in good company. In bash's eyes I'm anti-american because I ask the same types of questions you do.