DescentBB

Yeah, I went to a large school also, approx 1450 students, and 1 security guard and 1 camera would feel like a prison to me.

ccb056 wrote:

These are your examples...
1. I don't want to be treated like a prisoner
2. Should we run every building like a jail
3. Locking down schools would not work.
4. It sounds like jail. interesting.
5. They can break a window.
6. Kids can be shot outside school.
7. They can drive a car through the door.
8. They can build a bomb.
9. There being forced to use metal detectors.

ROFL, those aren't examples, those are reasons your idea won't work.

The USA Bureau of Justice Statistics defines a mass murder as "[involving] the murder of four or more victims at one location, within one event."

I couldn't find that anywhere on the USA Bureau of Justice Statistics' website.

I have the right answer unless a better answer comes along. I haven't found one yet in this thread.

Simply because your "solution" exists doesnt mean it will work.

Its right here... half way down titled "Abstract"

http://www.ncjrs.gov/app/publications/A ... ?id=192823

In case you missed it.. in the upper left corner it says "Administered by the Office of Justice Programs U.S. Department of Justice.

I don't make things up.... and I'm done with you. Your a joke.

Bettina

Bet51987 wrote: I don't make things up.... and I'm done with you. Your a joke.

O.o resorting to personal attacks?

First, go back to 3rd grade. It is you're (you are) not your (possessive).

Second, grow up.

haha, trolling ftw

Bet51987 wrote:I'm just saying that something needs to be done because we can't leave schools open to the public anymore.

Bee

My problem with this plan is that it's pure "reactionary". Reactionary fixes to social problems don't work - it's a bandaid. Actually i think it would even make things worse, for reasons others have already said.

The way you have worded this statement: "we can't leave schools open to the public ANYMORE" indicates that you think something has changed. But nothing has actually changed, these sudden school shootings all happening close together is a coincidence. School violence is not a new problem. Mass murders are not a new problem.
It may seem that things have SUDDENLY changed but really nothing has, the world we have this week is the same world we had yesterday. Just because you get a school shooting this week does not mean you will be more likely to get another one next week. It's coincidence.

My suggested answer to the problem is kinda polar opposite to yours. I think we should have a more open society, we should open up schools more, communitys should become more comfortable with their children. Kids should be more free, not less free.
Why do i believe this? Perhaps a part of the base of this opinion could be found in this article:

Paul Graham's article "Why Nerds are Unpopular" is good reading, it talks about schools and what their actual purpose is in society, how they resemble prisons in many ways, and how this prison psychology effects the students and makes schools what they are.
http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html
i hope you find the article enjoyable, i sure did.

Testiculese wrote:Orwell.

double-plus-x2

just came across this: School shootings: malignant, contagious social meme?
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/10/02/sc ... s_mal.html

ccb056 wrote:Parenting can account for many problems, but no matter how much good parenting someone gets, it won't do anything if there is a serious chemical imbalance in their head.

Ask any chemist or doctor, the human body is one big chemical reactor. Throw in a couple of enzymes with the wrong ratios and something is going to get screwey.

Part of good parenting is getting their kids professional help they realize that the child's behavior is more than just the normal stuff.


Bet, there are a number of problems with your idea: The biggest of which is evacuation safety. You have to at least have emergency doors that people can get out through. I do think it is a good idea to have a limited number of doors unlocked, and to have someone watching each one of the unlocked ones. That forces someone who obviously doesn't belong (like a 32 year old in an elementary school) to get more creative, thus deterring some people. I think an airlock is unrealistic, because there's just too much traffic in and out of schools for it to be any more effective than simply having someone watching the door for suspicious looking people.

As for why, I would claim that we all screw each other all the time, and it's a self-perpetuating cycle. The only difference between people who kill school children and us is where our line is, but we all hurt each other.

Why not have teachers trained in defense and security?

Of course, this is moot with regards to the latest shootings. Ever seen an Amish school? They're basically one-room schools.

ccb056 wrote:

Bet51987 wrote: I don't make things up.... and I'm done with you. Your a joke.

O.o resorting to personal attacks?

First, go back to 3rd grade. It is you're (you are) not your (possessive).

Second, grow up.

I had to come back and apologize for that.... I'm sorry.

Bettina

Interestingly I heard today on the news some state legislature want to introduce a bill allowing teachers to conceal carry. Better lead than dead eh?

woodchip wrote:Interestingly I heard today on the news some state legislature want to introduce a bill allowing teachers to conceal carry. Better lead than dead eh?

LOL

Eh, guess what was over my school's intercom today!
"Students of Bay Point Middle School, as of today, no backpacks, purses, binders, or other carry bags will be allowed, for safety purposes."

FFS MY SCHOOL IS THE DAMN THIRD REICH!!!

Dakatsu wrote: Eh, guess what was over my school's intercom today!
"Students of Bay Point Middle School, as of today, no backpacks, purses, binders, or other carry bags will be allowed, for safety purposes."

FFS MY SCHOOL IS THE DAMN THIRD REICH!!!

Yeah, that's pretty fscked up. Things sure have changed since I was in high school (class of '90).

I dont understand how backpacks, purses, binders, or other carry bags can harm somebody.....

I think it would be a better idea to not allow students to bring guns, knives, bombs, etc to school.

My girlfriend is pissed, she has to walk around with a box of tampons instead of putting them in her purse. And I especially hate it when she tells me to keep them now so I look like a girl holding tampons.

ARG! DAMN THIRD REICH!

Flatlander wrote:Of course, this is moot with regards to the latest shootings. Ever seen an Amish school? They're basically one-room schools.

He makes a good point.

Something to realize is the public school system isn't the only system of school. Private schools stand to various degrees outside of state and federal standards. Laws passed to protect students in school would have to specifically cite private school organizations in order to have any effect on them. I'd imagine for a law to pass that does just that would have an exceptionally difficult time.

Then there's home school...

As far as Amish schools go, I'm pretty sure they lie somewhere between home school and private school. The point being, I'm fairly certain they aren't subject to the same laws the public school systems are (maybe someone more familiar with federal/state laws in reguards to education can inform us).

Honestly, in my opinion, if security is the greatest concern to the public, then the only way to quickly address it is to increase it. Thus what Bet laid out in the beginning of this thread would be a worthy answer becasue it would increase secuirty to some degree. How effective it is left to be questioned and/or tested.

Intereting question. Suppose we do start seeing dramatic increases in school security. Would enrollment increase in those schools, or decrease because parents would begin sending their kids to private schools or perhaps teach them themselves?

No purses? But..no female students shot anyone...

Why is it that the consensus to make schools safer is to add more guns? I think the past few weeks (years) should show more Americans that playing pseudo-hero of the free world needs to take a back seat to fixing this country.

When it comes to schools... the action needs to be defensive, not offensive. School kids tend to show a brave face when discussing how to keep them safe but in reality they become ducks in a shooting gallery.

Its time to do something and fast. The White house, police stations, the capital, etc, are all safe so why not our schools.

Bee

Get the kids used to the state survellance and biometric monitoring early, and by the time they are adults they'll be subserviant drones, willing to sign up to any ridiculous \"security\" initiative.

Testiculese wrote:Get the kids used to the state survellance and biometric monitoring early, and by the time they are adults they'll be subserviant drones, willing to sign up to any ridiculous "security" initiative.

Nowhere in this entire thread have you come up with one suggestion, one idea, or one thought, that could be used as a guide. Those Amish kids were defenseless and some of them were brave. They deserve better comments.

Bettina

And you have Bettina?

From where I'm sitting, he's basically pointed out what the problem is. And that's part of being a guide.

It's been inferred that the solution would be better parenting (which means spending more time with your kids), but since this is the age of 'Me first!', it's not likely going to happen anytime soon.

Ferno wrote:And you have Bettina?

From where I'm sitting, he's basically pointed out what the problem is. And that's part of being a guide.

It's been inferred that the solution would be better parenting (which means spending more time with your kids), but since this is the age of 'Me first!', it's not likely going to happen anytime soon.

How does better parenting of your children save them from a 40 year old shooter.

Edit... One more thing. The term "Better parenting" is getting old and is weak. 98 percent of the kids in school are fine so people should drop that. You can't blame parents for the 2% causing trouble because some kids need help that parents can't afford.

Bee

Bet51987 wrote:

Ferno wrote:And you have Bettina?

From where I'm sitting, he's basically pointed out what the problem is. And that's part of being a guide.

It's been inferred that the solution would be better parenting (which means spending more time with your kids), but since this is the age of 'Me first!', it's not likely going to happen anytime soon.

How does better parenting of your children save them from a 40 year old shooter.

Edit... One more thing. The term "Better parenting" is getting old and is weak. 98 percent of the kids in school are fine so people should drop that. You can't blame parents for the 2% causing trouble because some kids need help that parents can't afford.

Bee

X2, This better parenting crap is getting on my nerves. I agree with Bettina here that it is not parenting due to the fact that it is a 40 yr old.

Like yours, none of my ideas are practical, nor would any of them really solve anything.

Proper parenting is highly crucial. It is not a crutch to hide behind because we have no answers. It is the answer. Raising people right with common sense , a sense of dignity (regardless of social status), and some personal responsibility would have deterred 99% of these problems. But this is not a short term solution. There IS NO short term solution, only long-term oppression which will become permanent problems, and escalate the violence.

You cage a lion, the lion goes beserk. You cage kids, you will drive the kids insane, and the lashing out will get worse. Remember the 50's, when people were 100x more free than today? What's the worst that happened, generally? TP the schoolyard or burning rubber inteh parking lot..maybe a broken beer bottle. Now everyone is under the thumb, and look what we get.

How'd it get this way? Feminists and taxes.

Testiculese wrote:Like yours, none of my ideas are practical, nor would any of them really solve anything.

Proper parenting is highly crucial. It is not a crutch to hide behind because we have no answers. It is the answer. Raising people right with common sense , a sense of dignity (regardless of social status), and some personal responsibility would have deterred 99% of these problems. But this is not a short term solution. There IS NO short term solution, only long-term oppression which will become permanent problems, and escalate the violence.

You cage a lion, the lion goes beserk. You cage kids, you will drive the kids insane, and the lashing out will get worse. Remember the 50's, when people were 100x more free than today? What's the worst that happened, generally? TP the schoolyard or burning rubber inteh parking lot..maybe a broken beer bottle. Now everyone is under the thumb, and look what we get.

How'd it get this way? Feminists and taxes.

So, from your perspective about caging kids, your saying that there is nothing that can be done to protect the kids in school from being lined up in front of a blackboard and executed. I'm talking about now... not the next generation.

Is that correct? If not, what is your suggestion.

Bettina

Bet51987 wrote:So, from your perspective about caging kids, your saying that there is nothing that can be done to protect the kids in school from being lined up in front of a blackboard and executed. I'm talking about now... not the next generation.

Is that correct? If not, what is your suggestion.

Bettina

You are aware that this is not a new problem, correct? The difference between when it happens now and when things of the same and similar nature have happened in the past is that you hear about EVERYTHING now. If you live in Kansas and it happens in Vermont, you know about it right after it happens. 10 years ago this was not the case. You heard about Kansas when you lived in Kansas. Its the information age and we're getting the bad with the good is all. Mass murder is older than all of us on this BB.

I agree with what everyone has said about parenting. This is not a new problem and it is not something you can fix with a lockdown, a security guard, or a thick rulebook. Its rooted in the generations before us and we're allowing it to happen in ours. Thats what we need to change in my opinion.

I'll give you an example - my parents. I was born to a single 16 year old mother who only cared about her next fix. I got dumped on to the laps of various relatives, "uncles" who in reality were people my mom slept with for money and/or drugs, and occasionally the state. I don't think my mother knows who my father is, and I sure as hell have no idea who he is either. I grew up poor and missed more school than I care to remember. I was almost held beck a grade, despite my good marks, because of how much school I missed. Why did I miss so much school? My mom was too wasted to take me, and we lived much too far/in too dangerous a place to walk.

Now, this kind of thing happens to alot of kids. Personally, I turned out halfway decent. Had the potential to be better than I am but all things considered, I'd say I'm an exception to the rule. Unfortunately alot of the kids put in similar situations do not have the capacity to rise above it. They may have turned out rather well given a fair shake.

There are millions of other examples I could give you, a few of them in my own family even, but the point is still the same. Some people are just fucked up, but most people would be stand-up members of society had they been raised to be. A prison environment won't do anything but try to rule by fear, which history has shown does not work. The solution is pretty simple, but its going to take at least a generation if not more of people working to change.

Bet51987 wrote:How does better parenting of your children save them from a 40 year old shooter.

Well the 40 year old was just messed up in the first place. Thank the clergyman who molested him when he was a kid for that.

But it's not like this can't be dealt with. Remember columbine? Same situation. screwed up because the parents were too busy getting toys instead of talking with the kids.


Personally, I'd rather read these types of thread than take part in them.. but of course when someone rips into a friend of mine, I tend to get involved.

When radar was still being perfected in the 30's, a British radar pioneer observed:

I would expect aircraft designers now to take into account the need to minimise the way future bombers act as a mirror to radio waves.

It took a while, but \"stealth\" technology eventually surfaced. The point is, there are workarounds for everything; just wait for the \"radar\" that can see stealth planes!

Make a school more secure and it will be so only until someone determined enough comes along.

I could throw out an idea right now off the top of my head...let's see - ID card with code transmitter, specific to each campus, the lack of which would set off an alarm that would lockdown the school and notify SWAT. Visitors must enter by the security check point and be issued a card. Don't have a card and the alarm goes off wherever you happen to be within the school. Sounds better than Bet's prison school. But some diabolical bastard would come along and find a way to rampage the campus anyway.

Again, there is little we can do to stop someone who is determined and there is almost no sense in trying to assign blame. Here's why, by way of another analogy...

Emotional abuse (of a child) in the State of Texas is defined (essentially) as an observable, material impairment to the child's growth, development, or ability to function. It is implicit that this impairment is associated with some form of maltreatment but the precise form is not defined. In other words, the law does not define calling your child a \"dumb motherf*cker\" as emotional abuse, even if you do it ten times a day or a hundred. Why? Because different people react different ways to emotional abuse. The abuse is defined by the impact to the child, not the maltreatment by the parent. One child gets called \"stupid c&nt\" (or worse) every day and ends up the next Einstein. Another child, same exact maltreatment freaks out and shoots 20 people from a bell tower.

The key is identifying such people early on and getting them handled. Had a call one time where the caller told me a 10 yo had killed his 5th puppy of the year \"for no good reason\". And silly me, I was thinking, what would be a good reason to kill your 5th puppy of the year? The community at large needs to be aware of the warning signs of an antisocial personlity and set the wheels of response in motion.

Parents need to parent their kids. Good parents need to get help for troubled kids. Bad parents should be reported when their bad parenting crosses the line and becomes also abuse or neglect. There's no law against being a bad parent. There's no law against being an a-hole. I refuse to believe that there are no warning signs because I see them all the time.

Mom calls me and says, \"CPS come take my kid\".

Why?

\"The kid is out of control. I can't take it any more. I've done everything I can. The kid is a threat to my younger kids. This kid is dangerous.\"

I don't doubt that the kid is hell on wheels. I'm sure he IS dangerous, but that's the point isn't it? And don't you know that when I check the historical database (that records all the past cases), the kid has been a victim of abuse or neglect over and over for YEARS. No wonder he's taking it out on mom now! And the local school is getting it too. And these are the normal cases, mind you, not the shoot up the school kind. Kurupt knows all too well what I mean by all this, but seems to have risen above it. (Well done, btw)

Only a united community can prevent or minimise the damage. Family, community, and institutional control, from the cradle to the grave is all we can do. It has become a necessity of a complex society with its built-in injustices, abuses, and contradictions which are bound to drive some mad.

Dakatsu wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:

Ferno wrote:And you have Bettina?

From where I'm sitting, he's basically pointed out what the problem is. And that's part of being a guide.

It's been inferred that the solution would be better parenting (which means spending more time with your kids), but since this is the age of 'Me first!', it's not likely going to happen anytime soon.

How does better parenting of your children save them from a 40 year old shooter.

Edit... One more thing. The term "Better parenting" is getting old and is weak. 98 percent of the kids in school are fine so people should drop that. You can't blame parents for the 2% causing trouble because some kids need help that parents can't afford.

Bee

X2, This better parenting crap is getting on my nerves. I agree with Bettina here that it is not parenting due to the fact that it is a 40 yr old.

Spoken like true teenagers.
You cannot ever possibly understand what parenting is or is like until you've been one, so your comments carry no merit.
so back to our 40 year old Amish shooter, first he was only 32 not that it makes that much difference, but he also blamed his behaviour on something that happened when he was 12, apparently what ever it was scarred him for 20 years. bad parenting perhaps???? only he really knows.

As for help that parents cant afford it doesnt cost ANYTHING to teach your child right from wrong, or that you have consequences for your actions. just some serious dedication to one of the toughest, painful, heartbreaking and most rewarding jobs you will ever do in your life. but some parents dont want to work at being a parent, they would rather blame someone else for what thier child does or they say "WOW I didnt know this parenting thing would be so hard" or "this job is alot of work I cant do the things that I want to do anymore" or "my kid never appreciates the things I do for him" or they are always being so defiant and rebelious. so they give up parenting thier child completly and let them run the house. sometimes you wonder who the adult is in the household. or they just give them drugs to control them because they dont want to deal with it, it can't be the fact that they gave up because they were not appreciated by their kids. its has to be because some thing is medically wrong with him because I'm a great parent, I gave my child everything they wanted. ya everything they wanted and not what they needed Dicipline.

tr.v. dis·ci·plined, dis·ci·plin·ing, dis·ci·plines

1. To train by instruction and practice, especially to teach self-control to.
2. To teach to obey rules or accept authority. See Synonyms at teach.

CUDA wrote:

Dakatsu wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:

Ferno wrote:And you have Bettina?

From where I'm sitting, he's basically pointed out what the problem is. And that's part of being a guide.

It's been inferred that the solution would be better parenting (which means spending more time with your kids), but since this is the age of 'Me first!', it's not likely going to happen anytime soon.

How does better parenting of your children save them from a 40 year old shooter.

Edit... One more thing. The term "Better parenting" is getting old and is weak. 98 percent of the kids in school are fine so people should drop that. You can't blame parents for the 2% causing trouble because some kids need help that parents can't afford.

Bee

X2, This better parenting crap is getting on my nerves. I agree with Bettina here that it is not parenting due to the fact that it is a 40 yr old.

Spoken like true teenagers.
You cannot ever possibly understand what parenting is or is like until you've been one, so your comments carry no merit.
so back to our 40 year old Amish shooter, first he was only 32 not that it makes that much difference, but he also blamed his behaviour on something that happened when he was 12, apparently what ever it was scarred him for 20 years. bad parenting perhaps???? only he really knows.

As for help that parents cant afford it doesnt cost ANYTHING to teach your child right from wrong, or that you have consequences for your actions. just some serious dedication to one of the toughest, painful, heartbreaking and most rewarding jobs you will ever do in your life. but some parents dont want to work at being a parent, they would rather blame someone else for what thier child does or they say "WOW I didnt know this parenting thing would be so hard" or "this job is alot of work I cant do the things that I want to do anymore" or "my kid never appreciates the things I do for him" or they are always being so defiant and rebelious. so they give up parenting thier child completly and let them run the house. sometimes you wonder who the adult is in the household. or they just give them drugs to control them because they dont want to deal with it, it can't be the fact that they gave up because they were not appreciated by their kids. its has to be because some thing is medically wrong with him because I'm a great parent, I gave my child everything they wanted. ya everything they wanted and not what they needed Dicipline.

tr.v. dis·ci·plined, dis·ci·plin·ing, dis·ci·plines

1. To train by instruction and practice, especially to teach self-control to.
2. To teach to obey rules or accept authority. See Synonyms at teach.

Better parenting today would take effect 12-20 years from now, better parenting wouldn't of stopped that because the damage is done, and therefore wouldn't matter at that point.

Also, there will always be one person who goes insane. Even if most people are good parents, one WILL do this again. We can prevent alot more from happening by better parenting, but we do need security.

Security from what?

Dude.. the more you clamp down on people, the more people will revolt.

I've seen it happen, I've heard it happen. and I bet you a life's pay that it WILL happen again. History is full of these examples.


I've seen some REAL screwups up close and personal. How? I've lived with those kinds of people. I've seen the kind of damage that kurupt and pally have mentioned and it is something you really don't want to see happen. There came a few times when I had to defend myself against these lunatics.

They even had a seperate area for the sexual offenders. 14, 15, 16 year old sexual offenders. It's nothing short of frightening. All these people were products of parents not caring, giving up, or diddling them.

So calling better parenting a crock just goes to show that you simply have no clue what the situation really is like. It's like they cease to be human and become not unlike animals.

Gene Simmons once said: If your dog can teach your kid the facts of life.. why can't you?

Ferno, although your correct that good parenting creates good kids, which in turn creates good adults, it doesn't always work that way like Dakatsu said. No matter how good you are as a parent and teacher you can always be fooled. Some of the young kids behave normally in front of their parents, friends, and neighbors, but carry a hidden burden which is either kept hidden, acted on early, or exposes itself later on in life. For example, people in church think I stand next to God, but I'm an atheist and no one knows it. A priest that everyone likes comes out as a pedophile, or a quiet boy down the street grows up to be a serial killer. Have you ever noticed that friends of a shooter would often say \"I can't believe it.... he was such a good boy\". The fact is that in any group of people some are going to have mental issues. Another thing that puzzles me is why are all the shooters men and boys.

In high school I was always nice to the bullys and they were always nice to me in return so something useful can come from being nice. However, it doesn't change the fact that because they didn't pick on me, they didn't cause trouble somewhere else, or that I didn't know what they were. The ones I encountered were more mischevous than dangerous, but like I said, you can never tell. Good parenting is a requirement but its not the cure that you make it out to be. Its very easy to blame the parents when something happens without even knowing if they were or not. So, with good parenting firmly in place, and the unknown roaming around, what solution do you have to stop the outsider shooter from getting into a school.

The Amish school shooting was an emotional event for me so I apologize for insulting anyone. I will gladly drop my \"prison environment\" for any other idea that works. I'm going to talk about these issues in other bulletin boards I go to just to spread the word because something other than pointing fingers needs to be done.

Bettina

Ironically, the removal of \"God\" and religion from schools, and the consequential removal of a moral foundation, seems to be the start of the problem that is driving you to this conclusion. These problems didn't exist in 1965.

Now you post on forums presenting your solution of giving up more freedom for the sake of protection.

I'm not a religious person (at all), but the value of manipulating society for the betterment of that society can't really be denied.

Related, the freedom we've already exchanged for protection has presented an environment where children are not taught cause and effect -- action and consequence. The obvious result to this is that they grow into adults being incredibly self-centered and failing to consider their actions on others.

Until individual parents take responsibility for providing a moral foundation for their children (the leaders of \"tomorrow\"), society will continue to plummet under our (the leaders of now) misguided perception of right and wrong.

\"No matter how good you are as a parent and teacher you can always be fooled. Some of the young kids behave normally in front of their parents, friends, and neighbors, but carry a hidden burden which is either kept hidden, acted on early, or exposes itself later on in life.\"


\"Ironically, the removal of \"God\" and religion from schools, and the consequential removal of a moral foundation, seems to be the start of the problem that is driving you to this conclusion. These problems didn't exist in 1965.\"

Bull.


\"Related, the freedom we've already exchanged for protection has presented an environment where children are not taught cause and effect -- action and consequence.\"

no. kids thinking only of themselves comes from lazy parenting.

Bet51987 wrote:Another thing that puzzles me is why are all the shooters men and boys.

Testosterone.

aaronb wrote:These problems didn't exist in 1965.

I'd agree that they are worse now, but I think saying they didn't exist is going way to far. There have always been wacko's.

And, while there are reasonable ways to make yourself "safer", there is NO way to make yourself or your children absolutely safe. It can't be done in a free and open society. Risks like this are one of the prices of living in a free country.

Bet51987 wrote:No matter how good you are as a parent and teacher you can always be fooled. Some of the young kids behave normally in front of their parents, friends, and neighbors, but carry a hidden burden which is either kept hidden, acted on early, or exposes itself later on in life. For example, people in church think I stand next to God, but I'm an atheist and no one knows it. A priest that everyone likes comes out as a pedophile, or a quiet boy down the street grows up to be a serial killer. Have you ever noticed that friends of a shooter would often say "I can't believe it.... he was such a good boy".

Actually, when this happens i'm reminded of one causal factor of why these kids go balistic in the first place. Communication with their traditional support community (family/peers) has broken down, or was never there to begin with. Isolation.

When i hear it said "i can't beleive it... he was such a good boy", it says to me that that person is kidding themselves, they may think and say they did but they never really knew them.

(Since we're getting ranty i'll enter my rant)
This is a symptom of a society that values "keeping up appearances" above emotional honesty. When what is aestheticly pleasing, is more important than the ugly truth. When people seek out and listen to only what they want to hear. Ugly things? they "don't want to think about it"
A society that runs on Denial.
Shallowness, Lies, Conformity for the sake of aesthetics.

What this "conformity in a throw away society" system teaches our children is profound. They learn that anything that singles them out is something to be avoided. If you are different, you hide. You don't ask for help. Afterall, people exhibiting this kindof "ugly behavior" can be easily replaced with beautiful perfect normality, or at least people who are better at faking it.
[/rant]

-----

As Kurupt and I (and maybe others i can't remember) have said, school shootings are nothing new. What is making you hysterical is that you think this is some new and amazing threat that we as a society can't handle unless we take drastic action right now, but that's not true. School masacres have been going on for probabaly as long as both schools have existed and humans have been killing humans. The main thing that has changed is that now you hear about it - and there are "interests" involved that want you to panic and think that it's getting worse:
- Media interests that know that sensationalism sells papers;
- Fascist Political interests that know that terrorised people are more prone to agree to any draconian local laws;
- Ideological (ie: religious) interests that want you to believe that the world is going to hell and they are the cure.
- Commercial interests that profit from selling of weapons for self-defence, and powering the war machine.

As you may notice - in our society today the controllers of these interests are all interlinked. Big media, Weapons producers, and Religious groups are all good friends and work together to run the world.

Testiculese wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:Another thing that puzzles me is why are all the shooters men and boys.

Testosterone.

x2. And the differences between the male and female mind when it comes to social issues, competing with others, and the yearnings to be one with, interact with and to some extent exert control over your physical and social environment. Of which i'm kindof preparing an armchair thesis (no doubt repeating what those like Maslow and Jung have already said).
Bett, also you need to read that article i linked to Bett "Why Nerds are Unpopular" - have you read it yet? It has a lot to say about the societal/psych causes of bullying in schools.

Also, wikipedia has an article on School Shootings, It includes a list of school shootings, which should be handy for this discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

Ferno wrote:Security from what?

Dude.. the more you clamp down on people, the more people will revolt.

I've seen it happen, I've heard it happen. and I bet you a life's pay that it WILL happen again. History is full of these examples.


I've seen some REAL screwups up close and personal. How? I've lived with those kinds of people. I've seen the kind of damage that kurupt and pally have mentioned and it is something you really don't want to see happen. There came a few times when I had to defend myself against these lunatics.

They even had a seperate area for the sexual offenders. 14, 15, 16 year old sexual offenders. It's nothing short of frightening. All these people were products of parents not caring, giving up, or diddling them.

So calling better parenting a crock just goes to show that you simply have no clue what the situation really is like. It's like they cease to be human and become not unlike animals.

Gene Simmons once said: If your dog can teach your kid the facts of life.. why can't you?

I do not mean security as in like airport security, I meant more like if this country gets invaded, the National Guard are supposed to defend this country. I think that we shouldn't restrict personal freedom, but we need a way so if a shooting starts, it gets dealt with in less than two minutes, and not in thirty like columbine.

Bet51987 wrote:Another thing that puzzles me is why are all the shooters men and boys.

Yeah, girls & guns are kin-kay, we need more female shooters!

I just realized, since me & my girlfriend both are 13, wouldn't that make me a child molester?

-Edited to fix a bbcode error-