DescentBB

hrm, I think I might agree with Bet in this thread

America ++
Iraq --

Oh, but the US has certainly caused the Arab people to be poor. We did it by purchasing lots and lots of oil from them. Unbelievable amounts of oil. Especially from Osama and his family. Yep indeed, we have made those poor Middle Eastern people paupers by buying so much of their oil. No wonder they are angry at us!

<sarcasm mode off>
Seriously, the Middle East can complain about US foreign policy. We have an almost unbroken record of diplomatic failures when attempting to deal with them. But there is simply no way they can claim we have financially oppressed them. The people of the Arab states are poor because their leaders maintain a strongly tiered system that lets them keep all the wealth for themselves. That is NOT the fault of anyone in the west.

Realize that Osama's BIGGEST complaint against the US, the thing that got him started off against us, was that there are US troops on the soil of Saudi Arabia ever since Desert Storm. There are Infidels in the Holy Land. And it does not MATTER to him that they are there at the invitation of the government, or that they are not conquering or fighting anyone in Saudi Arabia. He is mad because they are infidels and they are there.

His second policy complaint is that we have supported Israel. Apparently he can't take out Israel, and figures that if he hits us hard enough to make us change our position on Israel, then somehow Israel will cease to exist without our support. Yes, thats right. We are dealing with a man who thinks the best way to deal with Israel is blowing up civilians in the nations that are allied to them. Nice man.

And, we must never forget what he hopes to accomplish, what his ultimate goal is. He has not hidden it, he is quite proud of it. Osama Bin Laden wants to establish Sharia law worldwide. By force.

So, yes, I think America has done it's share of evil things. But we simply are not in the same ballpark as Osama and his like. They are EVIL with all caps.

Kilarin wrote:And, we must never forget what he hopes to accomplish, what his ultimate goal is. He has not hidden it, he is quite proud of it. Osama Bin Laden wants to establish Sharia law worldwide. By force.

Exactly, and the scariest part of all is that he doesn't mind what weapons are used to accomplish the task or how many of his own kind get killed implementing it. My Fatwa list above comes right from their book on what their grand view does to women.

Thank You Kilarin....

Bettina

So what are all of these atrocities the US has supposedly committed? Firebombing Tokyo and Dresden (is that the right place?) Dropping the \"bomb\" on Japan? Perhaps nearly exterminating most Native Americans? Other than that, not much comes to mind.

You know, I really hope that extremists like Bin Laden aren't speaking for the society as a whole. But if the good people in the Middle East want the rest of the world to see that they're different from how terrorists portray them, they have to stand up and actually do something.

Remember that there will always be a difference between what happened and what the common person believes happened. In this way the average citizen of say Lebanon is fed constant propaganda by press sources controlled by Hezbolla that \"show\" how all the problems of the poor in the middle east are caused by the West. (Parallel with Fox News intended)
And buying lots of oil from Saudi Arabia has not helped the citizens of Yemen or Palestine at all. The house of Saud was given control of Arabia and the holiest of Muslim places by England not by local consensus. There are far more poor Arabs than rich and lots of mid-east countries that don't have oil reserves.

Firewheel- you should read about the history of South and Central America.

Kilarin, you notice how Bin Laden had no problem with America when she was funneling arms to him to help drive the roosky's out of Afghanistan?

And Ford....how about a parallel with MSNBC?

And Ford....how about a parallel with MSNBC?

You bet. And the Washington Post and The New York Times and U.S.A. Today and ......

Firewheel wrote:So what are all of these atrocities the US has supposedly committed? Firebombing Tokyo and Dresden (is that the right place?) Dropping the "bomb" on Japan? Perhaps nearly exterminating most Native Americans? Other than that, not much comes to mind.

Is this sarchasm? I can't tell.

Woodchip, I did a bit of research and you were right about Saddam putting himself in power. The US was involved with Saddam before he became president when they were working together to get rid of a few leaders in Iraq to keep Iraq from becoming a military power. The nice little relationship they had going was ruined when Kuwait was invaded.
Oy, talk about not paying attention in history class back then!

Firewheel wrote:But if the good people in the Middle East want the rest of the world to see that they're different from how terrorists portray them, they have to stand up and actually do something.

And do... what, exactly? There's an incredibly small chance of any major western media scource that would be willing to write about normality over extremity. Heck, for the bomb-Muhammad drawing I saw remarkibly few articles that actually mentioned how Muslims consider it a sin to draw Muhammad at all.

TigerAssault wrote:Heck, for the bomb-Muhammad drawing I saw remarkibly few articles that actually mentioned how Muslims consider it a sin to draw Muhammad at all.

Actually, I heard it mentioned many times, but it really wasn't important.

You see, everyone KNEW that the Muslims had been offended and insulted. That wasn't in question. The issue was, how do they deal with being offended and insulted?

MOST Muslims are decent folk. Unfortunately, there is a significant percentage who think that violence is the solution to every problem. And they don't much care who is the victim. This is unacceptable.

For comparison, Iran sponsored a "Holocaust cartoon exhibition". This was, of course, deliberately designed to offend Jews. And yet, there were no Jewish riots. No Jews took any hostages and sawed off their heads on video. No Jews strapped on bombs and blew themselves up in public places.

You see, no one likes being insulted, but most of the civilized world understands that it happens and that you don't respond by killing random people.

I found it ironic that when the Muslim world thought the Pope had said Islam was a violent religion, they were so offended the threatened to respond with worldwide violence. Wow.

TigerAssault wrote:And do... what, exactly?

Islam is not a "bad" religion. Muslims are not all "bad" people. BUT, there are several movements in the Islamic world that are barbaric and dangerous. And so far, there has been little or no effort by other Muslims to stamp them out.

What could Muslims do? They could stand up and announce that these idiots among them are criminals. Then they could shut down the barbarians themselves. After all, they ARE in the best position to do it.

We have radical and dangerous Christian groups. We don't leave it up to the Jews, Hindus and Buddhists to stop them. We do our best to stop them ourselves.

Until the Islamic world is willing to start policing their own, they don't deserve to be considered "civilized".

Palzon wrote:

Firewheel wrote:So what are all of these atrocities the US has supposedly committed? Firebombing Tokyo and Dresden (is that the right place?) Dropping the "bomb" on Japan? Perhaps nearly exterminating most Native Americans? Other than that, not much comes to mind.

Is this sarchasm? I can't tell.

Nope, not sarcasm. I'm being totally serious.

South and Central America? If I recall correctly, wasn't Spain the country responsible for wiping out most of the indigenous population? Sorry if my memory's a bit fuzzy, but I don't recall the United States doing a whole lot of killing people in that part of the world.

My view on this whole \"America Muslim Hate Freedom\" thingy.

America is, in my opinion, the greatest country in the world. We are given the most freedoms and the most fun. We have many wonderful things here, and many wonderful people (yes, even the people I disagree with on this board are awesome people.)

However, this doesnt mean we are perfect. For instance, my girlfriend is the greatest girl on the world, second to none, but she can improve on many things to make her an even better person. This logic goes for America. We can improve on our economy, our spending and defecit, etc.

We have done great things, such as the United Nations, trying to help 3rd world countries, helping in World War 2, but we have done some bad things, such as the Korean and Vietnam Wars, and of course, in my opinion, the Iraq war.

When we were attacked on 9/11/01, I felt that we should seek out and attack the Al Queda groups in afganistan. They attacked us, so they need to pay for their actions. But simply, I believe that when Bush brought up Iraq, when it had no connection, I felt that we should of not gone into Iraq (To clarify, I DID say I think we should be in Afganistan, I just don't agree on Iraq.)

Now, if we could, with a magic wand, fix the entire middle east, get rid of the hateful muslims and only have the loving muslims, sure. But currently we barley have the resources to do two countries, and at a very LARGE cost at that. There are many problems in our country now. I am not talking about gay marriage, or abortion, but bipartisain stuff like education, the economy, and defense (YES, I said defence, not as in large millitary if we get invaded, but to stop foreign attacks against us.) Osama doesn't hate us majorly for our freedom, like someone said, it was mainly foreign policy, which if we could fix we could have less problems.

This is jumbled, so to sum it up: I believe this country is the best country to ever exist (except Kittania, where the land is filled with fluffy kittens and love and peace are everywhere, meeeeww!) But we need to fix our problems before we try to do anything more. Also make more friends with the outside world, as foreign affairs with other nations are poor these days, remember when we had the \"Coalition of the Willin'\"? Well, if we had global support, we could do alot better at anything.

Heh, this is probaly too jumbled that even I will read it and ask what the hell is this, but I am tired, so whatever. Gotta go vacation it Kittania!

The problem is that in the Arab world, political leaders are also religious leaders, or have very strong religious signature. The political power has to be separated from religious power in order to achieve freedom, democracy and all other nice things we'd like to see in the Middle East. This power separation took the western world centuries, and is now more or less complete (except for some exceptions, such as \"God bless America\" uttered by politicians in congress and swearing truth on the bible, among other examples). This separation is essential. It cannot be forced though. Democracy comes naturally when more primitive concepts have evolved, such as this one. That is why the USA FAILS.

Tricord wrote:The problem is that in the Arab world, political leaders are also religious leaders, or have very strong religious signature. The political power has to be separated from religious power in order to achieve freedom, democracy and all other nice things we'd like to see in the Middle East. This power separation took the western world centuries, and is now more or less complete (except for some exceptions, such as "God bless America" uttered by politicians in congress and swearing truth on the bible, among other examples). This separation is essential. It cannot be forced though. Democracy comes naturally when more primitive concepts have evolved, such as this one. That is why the USA FAILS.

I totally agree with the overall premise but would like to point out a few things.
In america having congressmen speak the words "god bless america" and other signs of religion within the government are merely token references of christian influence in our culture! The closest you can come to christian influence on our government is government offices are closed on christmas.
In america we have removed the ten commandments from courthouses in case the mere presence may give a non christian the belief he may not get a fair trial in a court that displays christian teachings. We just had a congressman swear his oath on the Koran!!

Can you find that kind of religious neutrality in Saudi Arabia where bibles are confiscated at the borders?!?
So the exceptions you reference to our separation of church and state are really only inconsequential traces of christianity that NEVER were a part of our laws! the separation you speak of has been here from the inception!

Now, you mention the western world is centuries ahead of the middle east in establishing the separation and that we can't force it on the middle east. Well that is not exactly true. The middle eastern cultures didn't arrive here centuries later than we did they've been here LONGER than we have so their retarded evolution is of their own doing! The efforts we make with our intrusive methods, our capitalist ventures that buy influence and corrupt their leaders with material greed, our military invasions for reasons spurred by our dissatisfaction with the violence brought to us by the radical islamic movement, our arming and protecting different factions to protect our interests, etc. etc. All those terrible things we do are all a part of how we will in fact FORCE them to evolve their cultures to separate their religious radicals from their government policy. No the war in Iraq or the invasion of Afghanastan or any other of the thousands of intrusions we make on their way of life won't convert them overnight but the cumulative pressure of all these imperfect "solutions" we pursue WILL nudge them closer to the state of separation much sooner than they would have arrived if left to their own ways.

We ignored them for too long.
Technology and the steady move toward a world wide community has made it less and less safe for us to ignore their refusal to develop and evolve socially.
Is it fair to seek to force people to join your club, so to speak? No, not really, but in this case 'fair' is not an option! "Fair" is a luxury afforded only between two parties of a like mind. They aren't of a like mind....yet.
The world community is evolving and it leaves only three possible outcomes, the islamic leaders win and the world lives under their law...or they adapt their cultures to live in peace with the west.... or they are destroyed.
That is the natural course of things and the western world needs to make sure they don't win. Avoiding their destruction takes a second place to ensuring they don't win in our list of priorities.