DescentBB

Wacked... How can you play a guitar with no fingers, or ears to hear the notes? You cannot ask god a question. You will not be human in heaven, therefore cannot have tears. The only activity in heavean is worshipping god, which is why god-lovers want to go there in the first place. What else could cause a christian to be happy after they leave their earthly body behind? You all are pawned... (except Mobius... oh, and maybe Birdseye, too... )

WillyP wrote:Wacked... How can you play a guitar with no fingers, or ears to hear the notes? You cannot ask god a question. You will not be human in heaven, therefore cannot have tears.

WillyP, I've addressed these things at least a couple of times already (read my posts above), but allow me to ask again:

Biblically-speaking, where are you getting this idea that we won't have a body, or that we're not human?

After all:
- Scripture refers many times to our re-created bodies in heaven (here's a partial list)
- As Duper mentioned, the Isaiah and Moses came down and physically spoke with Christ on the "Mount of Transfiguration"
- Christ Himself physically ascended to heaven!

WillyP wrote:The only activity in heavean is worshipping god, which is why god-lovers want to go there in the first place. What else could cause a christian to be happy after they leave their earthly body behind?

This is a pet-peeve of mine... where does this idea come from? I've heard it over and over from Christians, including close friends, but it still makes no sense!

If we assume the only thing in heaven is worshipping (or in TigerAssault's idea, the only thing is bliss), then it implies that everything else exists only on Earth, including:
- identity/uniqueness
- memory
- relationship
Those are God-given gifts, reflective of humanity created in God's image, so why would they be intended only for our short time here, and excluded in the infinite-ness of heaven?

As I said before, the idea that heaven includes "only what is necessary" for eternal bliss (or constant worship, etc.) goes directly against what I believe about the nature of God: generous, loving, created us to be relational, just as He desires a relationship with us.

Heck, God came down in human form to restore the relationships we have with Him and each other... only to take those relationships away in heaven? It just doesn't fit.

Oh, and the term is "pwned", as in "owned".

If it is true that God created earth, our bodies and our minds to suit his purpose and to prepare us in some way for existence after life then perhaps the physical and emotional parts of us are some kind of learning tool that we leave behind when we enter his presence. If you can't understand why He would do such a thing that might just be because you don't understand His plan. A plan that He seems to keep quite close to the chest if you ask me.

Well, I guess it depends on how you define 'body' and 'human'. Perhaps there is some form you will take after your corpse is left rotting in the Earth but generally the term is 'Spirit' or 'soul'.

And if god has created you, and you know not why, then why is your speculating any more accurate than anyone else's?

Being non-christian, I am only drawing conclusions based on what I have read and heard. My beliefs tell me nothing about heaven and hell. But I think most would agree that your body, as we know it is left behind. So why would you assume that you could bring a guitar to heaven, or have fingers to play it? Or even conscious thought with which to desire such a thing?

And the term is 'pawned', as in 'taken to a pawn shop and sold for cheap money'...

And btw, the quotes about the new body prove my point... they show that the term 'body' is used to describe something we cannot fathom from our earthly perspective. It (according to those quotes) will be very different from anything we have experienced here on earth.

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Spooky:

Unfortunately there are many who plainly, boldly, deny the Bible. While this is their free choice it is inappropriate for them to beat others over their heads with their philosophy.

Sorry but you had me until then. Just what do you consider your post if not beating those of us who do not share your faith with your own.
Practice what you preach and if another preaches to you open you ears, listen to the message and decide if it has any meaning to you.

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Spooky: Thanks for the courtesy of the reply and the edit. You are of course free to sermonize or merely comment as you wish. This is after all a public forum. If I reacted a touch harshly I apologize but too often those whose belief or lack thereof is not mainstream are accused of destroying the very fabric of society or such and of being ignorant of the \"truth\" as it is understood by the majority. I get a bit testy when I feel lectured to about not knowing the \"truth\".

Between the ages of 6 and 16 I regularly attended Sunday School in the Presbyterian Church. I have stood before a congregation and read scripture. I have sung hymns in praise of the Christian god and listened to many sermons about the teachings of Jesus.

In my house there are copies of The Bible, The Koran and The Tao of Physics. I have read parts of them all but to be truthful the only one I have read from cover to cover is The Tao of Physics. I have read A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawking and understood more of it than The Koran.

I have read Fundamentals of Tibetan Buddhism by His Holiness the Dali Lama and other basic Buddhist articles. I have sat in the quiet of a Buddhist temple and tried to still my mind. With little success mind you.

I have read several articles on the history of Marcus Garvey and the Rastafarian faith, delighted in the joy of it's reggae hymns celebrating Jah's love and smoked the herb that is it's sacrament on the beach in Jamaica.

However I am not a religious person and do not believe in the existence of god or heaven and this position is not the result of ignorance or lack of exposure.

Well there is my little sermon for the day.
Thanks for listening.

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Ford Prefect wrote:However I am not a religious person and do not believe in the existence of god or heaven and this position is not the result of ignorance or lack of exposure.

That makes two of us... I may not have been as diverse as you in my readings, but I've read, listened, and really tried to understand. However, when I open my eyes I just don't see it.

Spooky... Unlike some others here, you sound very much like my priest. The way he stares at that crucifix sometimes gives me the chills, and you can take that as a huge compliment.

Bee

<offtopic excuse=\"we've finished talking about heaven anyways\">

I'm not a fan of the commonly held Christian doctrine that says that if you're among the \"unsaved,\" then you're some combination of being either too ignorant (i.e. no one has told you enough about the \"Good News\") or too lacking in virtue (i.e. you're not humble enough, faithful enough, etc.) to assent to Christianity. I believe that it's compatible to be both very knowledgeable (at least to the extent that a typical contemporary person can reasonably be expected to be) about Christianity and virtuous at the same time, but still not assent to Christianity. And I think that Christians should recognize this too. If nothing else, it would help their proselytization efforts by embracing a more realistic outlook on why people aren't Christians.

Bet51987 wrote:That makes two of us... I may not have been as diverse as you in my readings, but I've read, listened, and really tried to understand. However, when I open my eyes I just don't see it.

Please, let's not have a 'do you believe in religion or not' debate in this thread. We've heard it all oh so many times!

Jeff250 wrote:<offtopic excuse="we've finished talking about heaven anyways">

I'm not a fan of the commonly held Christian doctrine that says that if you're among the "unsaved," then you're some combination of being either too ignorant (i.e. no one has told you enough about the "Good News") or too lacking in virtue (i.e. you're not humble enough, faithful enough, etc.) to assent to Christianity. I believe that it's compatible to be both very knowledgeable (at least to the extent that a typical contemporary person can reasonably be expected to be) about Christianity and virtuous at the same time, but still not assent to Christianity. And I think that Christians should recognize this too. If nothing else, it would help their proselytization efforts by embracing a more realistic outlook on why people aren't Christians.

As I was thought Christianity in my area, non-christians can still go to heaven if they're righteous enough, even if they don't believe in God.

TIGERassault wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:That makes two of us... I may not have been as diverse as you in my readings, but I've read, listened, and really tried to understand. However, when I open my eyes I just don't see it.

Please, let's not have a 'do you believe in religion or not' debate in this thread. We've heard it all oh so many times!

Maybe you didn't see it, but I was commenting on someone else's post.

TIGERassault wrote:As I was thought Christianity in my area, non-christians can still go to heaven if they're righteous enough, even if they don't believe in God.

Thats not true. If you read and understand the written word, yet reject the existence of God, your not getting into heaven.

Bee

Bet51987 wrote:Maybe you didn't see it, but I was commenting on someone else's post.

I did. That doesn't meke it an on-topic post though.

On topic off topic what the heck.
Looks like the \"what is heaven like?\" is winding down anyway but to avoid the predicted page four discussion on creation vs evolution perhaps we could look at the B side of the initial topic. That is \"What is Hell like?\" Just because you subscribe to the country club style of heaven does not mean you are all fire and brimstone on topic of Hell.

For the Christians I am not sure Hell is at that consistent with the teachings of Jesus as I recall them. I mean Jesus said that the only way to everlasting life was through him didn't he? And everlasting life is everlasting life whether or not you are enjoying it.
Everlasting torment always seemed a bit harsh for the loving God that Jesus taught as well. I mean not invited to the presence of God is one thing but unending agony seems a bit much. A bit tough on the ones born mentally disturbed or dying without ever hearing of Him as well.

For the Buddhists this is Hell. They don't care what you believe, if you don't gain understanding of the true nature of existence then you are doomed to repeat the birth/suffering/death cycle until you do.
And of course there is the \"You were dead before you were born and that was not so bad.\" view of it all.

For musical accompaniment of this section of the discussion I suggest UB40:Don't Let It Pass You By

There's no-one coming with that freedom train.
There's nowhere you can go where you feel no pain.
Take the blinkers off you eye's,
The power is in your hand.
Stop waiting for your ticket to the promised land.

There ain't no heaven and there ain't no hell.
Except the one we're in, and you know too well
There's no-one waiting on,
Waiting on a higher high.
Don't let the only world you're ever gonna live in pass you by.

TIGERassault wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:Maybe you didn't see it, but I was commenting on someone else's post.

I did. That doesn't meke it an on-topic post though.

And, I'm about to do it again....

Ford Prefect wrote:On topic off topic what the heck.
Looks like the "what is heaven like?" is winding down anyway but to avoid the predicted page four discussion on creation vs evolution perhaps we could look at the B side of the initial topic. That is "What is Hell like?" Just because you subscribe to the country club style of heaven does not mean you are all fire and brimstone on topic of Hell.

For the Christians I am not sure Hell is at that consistent with the teachings of Jesus as I recall them. I mean Jesus said that the only way to everlasting life was through him didn't he? And everlasting life is everlasting life whether or not you are enjoying it.
Everlasting torment always seemed a bit harsh for the loving God that Jesus taught as well. I mean not invited to the presence of God is one thing but unending agony seems a bit much. A bit tough on the ones born mentally disturbed or dying without ever hearing of Him as well.

For the Buddhists this is Hell. They don't care what you believe, if you don't gain understanding of the true nature of existence then you are doomed to repeat the birth/suffering/death cycle until you do.
And of course there is the "You were dead before you were born and that was not so bad." view of it all.

According to what I was told by my priest, read in the biblical journals, and what I tell kids who ask me, is that anyone who truly has no earthly knowledge of good and evil gets a free pass to heaven. They still have original sin but Gods mercy keeps them out of hell. I include their pet hamsters too.

There are lots of interpretations, but this is the one I know. I would be interested in hearing other versions...

Bee

I just got told my college furnace room is flooded from the noreaster. I get a furnace day, or two.

Nor'easter? You ain't never SEEN a nor'easter till you've been standing outside in one on the east end!

DCrazy wrote:Nor'easter? You ain't never SEEN a nor'easter till you've been standing outside in one on the east end!

I was told its a lot worse than expected and now they have pumps going just to keep up. Oh Well, now it looks like I'm going to be home all week, or shopping all week, or on the phone all week.

Although our house is dry, a lot of streets around me are closed... Hmmm..... Global Warming?

Bee

Bet51987 wrote:

TIGERassault wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:Maybe you didn't see it, but I was commenting on someone else's post.

I did. That doesn't meke it an on-topic post though.

And, I'm about to do it again....

No, that post is on-topic!

TIGERassault wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:

TIGERassault wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:Maybe you didn't see it, but I was commenting on someone else's post.

I did. That doesn't meke it an on-topic post though.

And, I'm about to do it again....

No, that post is on-topic!

God, the things you home in on...

Bee

Come on, people. The topic isn't \"bullriding\" so you should have no trouble staying on it for longer than six seconds.

Lothar wrote:Come on, people. The topic isn't "bullriding" so you should have no trouble staying on it for longer than six seconds.

Well, as I see it, there are things that can be explained.

Creationism vs Darwinism

Not mutually exclusive
How long is a Day to an omnipotent being such as God? We define a day as 24 hours because thats the rotational speed of the planet. A day to God, could be... a few billion years to us. Evolution is a tool. God created everything, evolution is just our limited perception of his works over time.

The problem with the Bible.

Here is the debate, the Bible has been touched by too many human hands. In editing, I mean. Over the centuries, books have been added and removed. Was this really Gods will? Whats in the missing books? How do you account for the missing Chapters of Jesus's life growing up? How can you base an informed decision on a book that has seen so much change? Where centuries of social engineering by \"the church\" using the Bible to make society conform to their vision. Just look at all the man-made rules in the Catholic religion. You don't have to do all that crap. Jesus said, \"No man comes to the father but by me\" Its that simple. One must take the \"jist\" of the Bible, take a leap of faith and form one's own opinions about what God really intended to be in the Bible. Which brings us to the flip side of the debate, where the editing of the Bible is still Gods doing through the clergy to form it to how he wants it to be read. Hmmm...

Science vs God

Science wants to explain everything, but since it can't explain God, science concludes God doesn't exist.
My theory is that God is a manifestation of everything and nothing, what was and is and will be. God is a being that exists everywhere and nowwhere.
Contradictory? Not in the fulcrum of the universe, what I call the Zero'th dimension, the point where nothing exists and everything exists. Logicly, it must exist granted that there are an infinite number of dimensions, (among other things). Anyway, you can theorized till your blue in the face, the only way to find out is to die 'not willingly of your own hand' and meet him, which they say you can't look at him because it will blind you and that not even the angels can look. How would the fulcrum of the universe manifest itself? Well, I'll bet thats how.
Why do you have to die to goto heaven? Because you can't go to the fulcrum of the universe if you only exist in 3 dimensions (4 if you count time) Thus your spirit or soul must be seperated from your limited physical body.

Again, all this is hypothesis. And everyone is entitled to their own.

So, with that being said, whether it states it in the Bible or not, I would hypothesize that once reunited with a child that was lost at such a young age, you will recognize the child as they are, because you will *know* the person, but you will not retain your appearance as it was on earth, but your original appearance as it was before you arrived on earth (or after nobody knows if you were created when you were born, or if you were merely sent), your non-coporeal form (whether or not they're similar or the same is open to speculation as well)

Its also said that we are given new bodies after death, so, whatever that means. I don't have it all figured out, but this is my take on it so far.

Capm wrote:*words on creationism vs evolution*

Again, all this is hypothesis. And everyone is entitled to their own.

*sigh*
They are, but NOT IN THIS THREAD!

Capm wrote:Science wants to explain everything, but since it can't explain God, science concludes God doesn't exist.

No.
Just no.

Agreed, let's please keep the tangents out of this thread.

I was wondering the other day... is there a correlation between how people view the world, and how they view heaven?

Do people who have experienced immense pain tend to have a different view of heaven than those who have not?

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On infinite notes:

Yeah, I know, off-topic. Ford asked if a finite number of notes meant a finite number of combinations. Well, yes and no.

There are a finite number of possible chords you can play. There are a finite number of 2-chord sequences, 3-chord sequences, etc. So long as you limit yourself to a maximum song length (in terms of number of notes), you'll eventually play everything possible to play. Similarly, there are a finite number of numbers of 100 digits or less.

But, if you allow for songs of arbitrary length (or non-standard notes like when you hit the whammy bar, or non-standard changes in tempo), there are an infinite number. Just like if you allow for a sequence of numbers to go on for as many digits as you like, there are an infinite number of possibilities.

On the nature of heaven:

There was a lot of discussion on page 1 about the nature of heaven, specifically relating to Christian/Biblical descriptions. I'm mostly with Foil on that subject, though I'll take it a step further. Not only did God make us as relational beings, but God Himself is a relational being. That makes me think the whole point of heaven is relational -- it's all about being with others.

So what about marriage in heaven? Jesus was once asked what would happen if you married, then your spouse died and you remarried... who would you be married to in heaven? His response was, essentially, \"you don't understand heaven at all. None of the above.\" One of the major themes in the Bible is a comparison of God's relationship to His people (the church, or Israel) to a marriage. I think when we get to heaven, our relationship with God will be primary. All of the other people we love, we'll still love, but our \"one unique love\" (the equivalent of marriage) is God.

On knowledge/ignorance:

Jeff250 said it best:

I'm not a fan of the commonly held Christian doctrine that says that if you're among the \"unsaved,\" then you're some combination of being either too ignorant (i.e. no one has told you enough about the \"Good News\") or too lacking in virtue (i.e. you're not humble enough, faithful enough, etc.) to assent to Christianity.

People sometimes get this silly belief that being a Christian is all about two things:
1) knowing the right things about God (being smart)
2) being good enough for God to save (being virtuous on your own)

both of these are utterly, completely, WRONG from a Christian perspective. James writes that the demons know all the right things about God, yet are condemned. Being smart enough doesn't do it for you. And one of the main themes throughout the Bible, repeated from Moses to Jesus to Paul, is that nobody is good enough -- that God saves us in spite of, not because of, who we are. God saves us out of love, not because we know the right things or have the right character qualities.

Another mistake people make is assuming that the line between \"going to heaven\" and \"not\" is drawn between those who take the label \"Christian\" and those who don't. That's utterly backwards. What it's really about is simple: do you love God, or not?

I contend that you can be an intelligent, educated, reasonably virtuous person who loves God (perhaps without even thinking such a God actually exists!) and doesn't take the label \"Christian\"... and that such a person will be in heaven alongside stupid, uneducated scumbags who called themselves \"Christian\" their whole lives and fell in love with God on their deathbeds. Because the thing that matters isn't intelligence, virtue, or the Christian label... it's being in love with who God is.

On the nature of hell:

We have a fairly limited description of hell in the Bible. It's mentioned far more often than heaven, but there aren't many details.

I believe hell is the opposite of heaven -- which means, first and most importantly, no relationship with God or with anyone else. The only descriptions we have of \"fire and brimstone\" are specifically applied to Satan, demons, and religious teachers who lead their flocks astray.

What happens to children, the handicapped, etc.:

Check out these two posts (one by me, one by Drakona) on this topic. Key quote: \"it's worth noting that God knows how much of a chance people had, and judges them accordingly.... if you're stupid or crazy... God knows that.\"

Capm's \"problem with the Bible\":

Capm says \"the Bible has been touched by too many human hands\". The Bible is actually quite an extraordinary book, in the sense that we can trace the history of how exactly it's been touched. The number of existing manuscripts, and the number of years and geographic distance between them, allows us to see what sort of changes have been made over time. The ignorant are inclined to say that we can't possibly get at the original text... but it's really quite the opposite. We actually have a good idea of the few places where we can't get at the original text, and a good idea of how badly the original is obscured in those cases.

So Lothar, can I put you down as Nirvana for Heaven and no eternal torment on the Hell side?

I don't think it would be fair to call what I described \"nirvana\"... it's not about some sort of enlightened bliss, it's about relationships.

Fair to put me on \"no eternal torment\", or at least, no unnatural torment; being alone for eternity is itself a form of torment, but I don't believe hell involves the types of medieval torture people normally associate with it.

From what I understand, Hell, aka the lake of fire, is supposed to be like being burned alive for all eternity. Like being cast into molten lava, only you don't die.

I've heard lots of different things about both heaven and hell from a number of various preachers and pastors throughout my life.

I've heard heaven as the \"nirvana/bliss/never-ending-song/etc.\", hell as the \"physically-torturous/eternal-pain/etc.\". I've also heard heaven and hell as a vague \"metaphysical/ghostly/haunted-by-your-choices\" realm.

But I completely agree with Lothar here. Beyond the various images of \"pearly gates\" or \"fire and brimstone\", Heaven and Hell are about relationship or the lack thereof, with God and with each other. This is why I took such an issue before with the talk about heaven as a mindless and relationless bliss.

[Edit: BTW, excellent comprehensive post above, Lothar. It's good to see the various sub-topics broken out so clearly.]

Capm wrote:From what I understand, Hell, aka the lake of fire, is supposed to be like being burned alive for all eternity. Like being cast into molten lava, only you don't die.

The lake of fire is mentioned only in the book of Revelation. Also, irrc, that lake is reserved for Lucifer and his angels after the millenium.