DescentBB

Why do people who are like me, non-experts in structural engineering, base so many strong opinions on \"I can't see how (X) caused (Y)\".

I know enough to know that I'm no expert on such matters. So, who do I go to for information?
A. Some guy who has a website (or video!) claiming to have \"inside information\" and \"eyewitness accounts\"?
...or...
B. Report done by multiple professionals, who did their research on-site, with published and peer-reviewed details?


There are a lot of things I know enough to admit I don't understand. One is the effect of heat and physical damage on structures like the WTC buildings. I would have to be a moron to claim, in my own lack of expertise, things like \"There's no way that fire did (X)\", \"That damage isn't enough to cause (Y)\", or the most ridiculous, \"I can tell from the pictures that (Z) is impossible\".

You can debate Bush's involvement all you want, but you guys are still missing the point!!

Just how did the towers get from the fires being almost out (one of the firemen made it up to the floor where the airplane hit just before the first building fell , listen to thier audio tapes, they were released a few years back) to steel being molten all the way down to the bottom basement floors(look at the pbs documentaries about the cleanup, heck I've seen one or 2 where they actually pull up some beams with molten steel still running down the beams for the camera man.
While considering this remember the Popular Science article and all officals statements state that the jet fule COULD NOT HAVE MELTED THE STEEL, nor could anything in those buildings have caused a fire hot enough to have melted it, only weaken it.
THis aint rocket science, the evidence is right there in front of you, wether you believe our government had something to do with it or not, the official story simply does not add up.

Teddy wrote:You can debate Bush's involvement all you want, but you guys are still missing the point!!

Just how did the towers get from the fires being almost out (one of the firemen made it up to the floor where the airplane hit just before the first building fell , listen to thier audio tapes, they were released a few years back) to steel being molten all the way down to the bottom basement floors(look at the pbs documentaries about the cleanup, heck I've seen one or 2 where they actually pull up some beams with molten steel still running down the beams for the camera man.
While considering this remember the Popular Science article and all officals statements state that the jet fule COULD NOT HAVE MELTED THE STEEL, nor could anything in those buildings have caused a fire hot enough to have melted it, only weaken it.
THis aint rocket science, the evidence is right there in front of you, wether you believe our government had something to do with it or not, the official story simply does not add up.

Yeah... I'm gonna go with Foil's advice.
Also, don't forget that the explosion included both the plane and everything else in the entire building!

Teddy wrote:THis aint rocket science, the evidence is right there in front of you, wether you believe our government had something to do with it or not, the official story simply does not add up.

Your science is questionable, but let's forget that for the moment. Lets just grant that exactly how the towers fell is in question. We can still apply Occam's razor to the problem.

What do you propose as an explanation for the fall of the towers that makes more sense than the theory that they collapsed because terrorist flew airplanes into them.

When giving this answer, I'm not so much interested in how you figure out the science, but in how you calculate the involvement of people. Are you assuming a vast conspiracy involving dozens, and probably hundreds, if not thousands, of people who had to be "in on it"? If so, Occam's razor is just as dull as can be. Because it's just not that easy to find American citizens willing to blow up buildings full of civilians, and especially not have any of them talk about it afterwards.

Come up with a theory involving two, three, or at most five people, and ok, perhaps. Then we can argue about the science. But unless you can get the numbers down to that small, the only theory that makes any sense is that the buildings collapsed because terrorist flew planes into them.

Kilarin wrote:What do you propose as an explanation for the fall of the towers that makes more sense than the theory that they collapsed because terrorist flew airplanes into them.
....

Come up with a theory involving two, three, or at most five people, and ok, perhaps. Then we can argue about the science. But unless you can get the numbers down to that small, the only theory that makes any sense is that the buildings collapsed because terrorist flew planes into them.

x2

IMHO all this "conspirist's theories" are a load of bull___. Yes, it was a conspiracy. The terrorists conspired to hit the buildings. Period. End of Story.

how is the science questionable, is the firemen, EMS, police and cleanup workers testomony that unreliable???? you have them before the collapse saying the fire is almost out and afterward saying the steel was melted even 6 weeks later.

As for the people keeping this big secret some are,some arn't.You are just busy ignoring the testimony of those that are speeking out. there have been numerous military personel who have come forward with various pieces of evidence. There was a fellow here in Cincy who went public as soon as he got out of the Air force and announced that Cheney had, using his newly aquired powers, refused to shoot down any of the hijacked planes. The one that hit the pentagon didnt do so for over an hour after the twin towers were hit.... and remember this is the most guarded air space.

As for why so many in our government are towing the line and not speaking out. It's real simple actually, and the answerer has been here for 200 years. while were buisy looking for religious extremist over in the middle east we never look next door!!!! I have found it so funny to watch as nearly every official of the Bush administration get fired and get a job at the Vatican... but stay put for a min and read on, you will finally see were this all came from and where it's going.

One point i want to make before i go any further, this is the view held by the church leadership, not individual Catholics. The vast majority have no idea what the church leadership are planning.

Since the start of our country(which was founded by protastants) the vatican has promised to destroy our country... Here is a letter from Abraham lincon to ex-priest. This letter is publish in his book 50 years in the Catholic church and is also in the Congressional Library(it is authentic).

I will be forever grateful for the warning words you have addressed to me about the dangers ahead to my life, from Rome. I know they are not imaginary dangers. If I were fighting against a Protestant South, as a nation, there would be no danger of assassination. The nations who read the Bible fight bravely on the battlefield, but they do not assassinate their enemies. The pope and the Jesuits, with their infernal inquisition, are the only organized powers in the world which have recourse to the dagger of the assassin to murder those who they cannot convince with their arguments or conquer with the sword.
Unfortunately, I feel more and more every day that it is not against the Americans of the South, alone, I am fighting, it is more against the pope of Rome, his perfidious Jesuits and their blind and bloodthirsty slaves. As long as they hope to conquer the North, they will spare me; but the day we route their armies, take their cities and force them to submit, then, it is my impression that the Jesuits, who are the principal rulers of the South, will do what they have almost invariably done in the past. The dagger or the pistol will do what the strong hands of the warriors could not achieve. This civil war seems to be nothing but a political affair to those who do not see, as I do, the secret springs of that terrible drama. But it is more a religious than a civil war. It is Rome who wants to rule and degrade the North, as she has ruled and degraded the South, from the very day of its discovery. There are only very few of the Southern leaders who are not more or less under the influence of the Jesuits through their wives, family relations, and their friends. Several members of the family of Jeff Davis belong to the Church of Rome....
But it is very certain that if the American people could learn what I know of the fierce hatred of the priests of Rome against our institutions, our schools, our most sacred rights, and our so dearly bought liberties, they would drive them away tomorrow from among us, or they would shoot them as traitors. But you are the only one to whom I reveal these sad secrets for I know that you learned them before me. The history of these last thousand years tells us that wherever the Church of Rome is not a dagger to pierce the bosom of a free nation, she is a stone to her neck, to paralyze her, and prevent her advance in the ways of civilization, science, intelligence, happiness and liberty.

Many have given us similar warnings but i think the Catholic church says it best in thier ouwn words.

\"At the rate of 126,000 converts a year in the United States it would take us too long [to Romanise America]. We must convert Politics, Economics, Sociology, Business, Entertainment, Labor and management, the Department of State and the Executive Branch of our Government to Christian and hence Catholic principles.\" - An article in The Union and Echo, official diocesan organ of the Roman Catholic Church in Buffalo, in December 1950

\"We control America and we do not propose to stop until America or Americans are genuinely Roman Catholic and remain so.\" \"We, the Hierarchy of the Holy Catholic church, if necessary, shall change, mend, or blot out the present Constitution so that the President may enforce his, or rather our, humanitarian programme and all phases of human rights, as laid down by our saintly Popes and the Holy Mother Church. We are going to have our laws made and enforced according to the Holy See and the Popes and the canon law of the Papal throne. Our entire social structure must be rebuilt on that basis. Our educational laws must be constructed to end the atheism, the Red peril of totalitarianism, Protestantism, Communism, Socialism and all other of like ilk and stamp, be driven from this fair land. We control America and we do not propose to stop until America or Americans are genuinely Roman Catholic and remain so.\" -\"Father\" Patrick O'Brien quoted in L'Aurora in December of 1950

sadly enough this aint just fringe believers, quite a few church leaders feel this way, come to CIncinnati there is a parish priest(who would rather remain nameless) who would confirm all this(and much more).


THis destruction of our government is comming, and very soon we will be formed into an image of what the vatican wants and controls. A north american union just as Pope john paul planned 40 or 50 years ago.

Date: 2006-10-24
Prelates Promote a United American Continent
VATICAN CITY, OCT. 24, 2006 (Zenit.org).- Bishops in the New World are doing what they can to promote Pope John Paul II's concept of the Americas as one continent, reports the Vatican.

Here you have the current Pope stating the the North American Union that is comming is all the Churches plan, Now here is the clencher..... this plan if you bother to look it up was as follows....

\"The Club [of Rome] had its beginnings in April of 1968, when leaders from ten different countries gathered in Rome...The organization claims to have the solutions for world peace and prosperity...The Club of Rome has been charged with the task of overseeing the regionalizaton and unification of the entire world...

\"The Club's findings and recommendations are published from time to time in special, highly confidential reports, which are sent to the power-elite to be implemented. On 17 September 1973 the Club released one such report, entitled Regionalized and Adaptive Model of the Global World System... The document reveals that the Club has divided the world into ten political/ economic regions, which it refers to as 'kingdoms.'\"

Here it is, the world is being devided up into 10 kingdoms by the church the sits on the city of 7 hills, you will see this outlinded in revelation 17. THe scary thing is , liik up this map as to how the Vatican wanted to devide the world up 50 years ago and google \"south american union\", \"african union\" \"southease asia union\",\"european union\" ect, you will start to see that it is happening right before our eyes and is nearly finished.

Were being warned by our own leaders in congress that the north American Union is comming and it will work jsut like the european union, and rule over our own government(and Canada's) alowing what ever changes to our way of life this enemy of freedom has wanted for so long.

It's easy to get people to toe the line when they think they have eturnity riding on wether they are on board or not!!!!

Ferno wrote:I didn't see any huge holes in 7.

The picture in this link
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/9 ... 13805.html
shows considerable damage to the lower floors on one side of wtc7

look at the size of that hole and compair to the buildings that didnt collapse!

That's not what I consider a huge hole.

Look at the Oklahoma federal building. that's what I consider a huge hole. Half that sucker was GONE and the building still stood.

Ferno wrote:That's not what I consider a huge hole.

Look at the Oklahoma federal building. that's what I consider a huge hole. Half that sucker was GONE and the building still stood.

um, starting from 18 floors up and down to the ground is not a "big hole"?

here's a 2+ MB powerpoint from the NIST describing their ideas of details of the wtc7 collapse.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%20Part%20I ... 0Final.pdf

edit - oh, and so we now agree that it was more than "a few small diesel fires".

Teddy wrote:as for the people keeping this big secret some are,some arn't.You are just busy ignoring the testimony of those that are speeking out. There was a fellow here in Cincy who went public as soon as he got out of the Air force and announced that Cheney had, using his newly aquired powers, refused to shoot down any of the hijacked planes. The one that hit the pentagon didnt do so for over an hour after the twin towers were hit.... and remember this is the most guarded air space.

No, you are missing my point. Cheney refused to shoot down a plane. Fine and dandy. It takes some serious guts to shoot down a plane full of civilians, even if you think you will save more lives as a result. Nothing here shocking, and nothing that says: "*I* conspired to blow up buildings and kill thousands of U.S. civilians"

You seem to feel that the Catholics did this. Ok. Last week it was the Jews, but we can deal with Catholics this week. I'm a protestant, and as such, I have a lot of misgivings about the Catholic Church's connections to political power. (And before any Catholics get upset, I have a lot of misgivings about protestant churches connections to political power as well!) But that DOESN'T mean that I think you could find hundreds of Catholics in the U.S. government who would be willing to blow up a government building full of civilians.

Let's try sense one more time. Think about it:

Radical Catholics: What did they stand to GAIN by blowing up the world trade center? If they want to be in charge of the world, that would hardly move them forward towards their goal. And how many Catholics have you ever heard stand up and say they just wish someone would blow up some of those evil US buildings? Nope. Grab for power? Yes! U.S. the great satan? Hardly.

Radical Islamist: What did they stand to GAIN by bringing down the world trade center? Well, world wide notoriety. Lots of attention for their cause. Unification of the Muslim world behind an anti-U.S. movement. Uhm, yep, lots to gain there. Still a stupid move, but easy to see why THEY would think it might help their cause. Have we ever heard Islamic extremist declare that the U.S. was their enemy? Oh yeah. Do Radical Muslims regularly blow up things and kill people? Uhm, check.

Now just back up from the rhetoric you have been fed for a moment and, once again, try to examine this with occam's razor. It simply makes more sense on every front that the Islamic Extremist did this. There is as much evidence that the state of California blew up the WTC as that the Catholic Church did.

Just look at the SCOPE of the operation. They had to take entire planes full of men, women, and children and "disappear" them. Who did that? Angry Catholics? Agents of the U.S. Government pulled American kids off the flight and, what, shot them in the head? Or did they lock them up in Guantanimo?

Our government is corrupt, certainly, but this just makes no sense. Especially when they could have done the entire thing with only one or two people and a canister of nerv gas.

Step back again, look at it, and tell me why it makes more sense that the Catholics were behind this than Osama. At least the Jews were supposedly trying to frame Osama. <sigh>

dissent wrote:
here's a 2+ MB powerpoint from the NIST describing their ideas of details of the wtc7 collapse.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%20Part%20I ... 0Final.pdf

Thought I'd help highlight the important part.

Teddy wrote:<snip>

Ok, let's see:
First, you start with saying that the planes werent shot down by those people in power. Yes, that's what happens! People absolutely hate having to be personally responsible for so much damage if it turned out that the hijackers weren't trying to blow somthing up.
Then, you claim that it was the Vatican, because you saw one warning from Abraham Lincoln, one article about how the catholic church should take over the country, and one priest saying the same thing. Frankly, that's not "promising to destroy the country" as you said.
Moreso, you didn't even say why it would benefit the church to destroy the towers at all!

Also, the European Union was a damn brilliant idea!

Ferno wrote:

dissent wrote:
here's a 2+ MB powerpoint from the NIST describing their ideas of details of the wtc7 collapse.
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%20Part%20I ... 0Final.pdf

Thought I'd help highlight the important part.

And it is my contention that their ideas are better than the conspiracy theorists ideas. Is that what you were trying to highlight?

oops, double post.

Teddy wrote:As for why so many in our government are towing the line and not speaking out. It's real simple actually, and the answerer has been here for 200 years. while were buisy looking for religious extremist over in the middle east we never look next door!!!! I have found it so funny to watch as nearly every official of the Bush administration get fired and get a job at the Vatican... but stay put for a min and read on, you will finally see were this all came from and where it's going.

Here is a letter from Abraham lincon to ex-priest. This letter is publish in his book 50 years in the Catholic church and is also in the Congressional Library(it is authentic).

Please provide any evidence you can that this is a genuine letter written by Lincoln, and where it is to be found in the LOC. A brief search seems to indicate that this is a letter response attributed to Lincoln in a book by ex-priest Charles Chiniquy. As this book is lavishly praised by Chick Publications, that's all the evidence I need to doubt its veracity.

Yet again, “I read it on the Internet” and a claims of authenticity are brought into doubt.

"At the rate of 126,000 converts a year …”
“"We control America and we do not propose …”

These quotes appears to come from

http://www.ianpaisley.org/article.asp?A ... ome_010198

Spend five minutes here, and you can see that this is an organization clearly anti-Catholic in it intentions. Without the original, based on this source, I have reason to doubt that the quote itself is accurate, or is in context as given. Without knowing who the named “Patrick O’Brien” is, I have no reason to accept that he is stating official Church doctrine. Anyone whose been paying any attention over the last several decades realizes that individual priests (assuming he is one) can have all kinds of opinions of their own, which can be in agreement or in disagreement with official Church teaching.


LOL, the Club of Rome is not even an official Church organization.

http://www.clubofrome.org/

http://www.abc.net.au/science/slab/rome/default.htm

Really, Teddy, do you have any more such silly tripe to peddle here as supposed evidence?

I'm not sure if I'm playing the devil's advocate here, or not, but I wouldn't completely rule out the conspiracy theory, I just wouldn't make it as grand as some would. If you think about string theory and such- small actions can lead to large effects. So, if Bush really wanted this to happen, the way to do it would have been to funnel some money toward the Taliban, maybe do some \"covert\" stuff to make them mad at the U.S., bottle up the intelligence agencies as much as possible, and hope that the terrorists are smart enough to pull something off. I would think that all of these things could be pulled off with minimal people involved.... I'd say less than a dozen, and furthermore, most of it could be accomplished in the name of something good- for example overload intelligence in the name of need for hightened awareness or something of the sort.