DescentBB

Ferno wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:

Ferno wrote:nope.

Well, thanks for the spam anyway. I keep forgetting about you increasing your post count

Bee

I've been here long enough to not even care about my post count. Nice try though.

Ok.. so that leaves just spam. Thanks, I guess.

Dakatsu wrote: Iran 1998
On July 3, 1988 the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian Airbus A300B2 on a scheduled commercial flight in Iranian airspace over the Strait of Hormuz, resulting in 290 civilian fatalities from six nations, including 66 children. On February 22, 1996 the United States paid Iran $61.8 million in compensation for the 248 people killed in the shootdown. The United States has not compensated Iran for the airplane itself to date. The aircraft was worth more than $30 million. The United States however never officially apologized.

The USS Vincennes was in a war zone protecting Kuwait during the Iraq/Iran war (not ours) and the crew shot down the airliner by mistake thinking it was a bomber heading for their ship. It was not done for power and greed, nor was it a country. I'm disappointed that you would think we shot down a civilian airliner full of women and children on purpose, I really am surprised.

Sudan 1998
The missiles were launched from US warships in the Red Sea. Several hit the Al-Shifa pharmaceutical factory, which the United States claimed was helping Osama bin Laden, the mastermind of the embassy attacks, build chemical weapons. Dozens were wounded in Sudan by the strike.
Then United States National Security Council advisor Richard Clarke stated that intelligence existed linking Osama bin Laden to al Shifa's current and past operators, namely the Iraqi nerve gas experts and the National Islamic Front in Sudan.[1] The government of Sudan demanded an apology from both the Clinton and Bush administrations; but none has been given, since U.S. intelligence apparently still believes the plant had ties to chemical weapons. According to testimony by William Cohen, "...the U.S. intelligence community obtained physical evidence from outside the al-Shifa facility in Sudan that supported long-standing concerns regarding its potential role in Sudanese chemical weapon efforts that could be exploited by al Qaeda." [1]

Officials later acknowledged, however, "that the evidence that prompted President Clinton to order the missile strike on the Shifa plant was not as solid as first portrayed. Indeed, officials later said that there was no proof that the plant had been manufacturing or storing nerve gas, as initially suspected by the Americans, or had been linked to Osama bin Laden, who was a resident of Khartoum in the 1980s."[2]. Unfortunately the factory was Sudan's primary source of pharmaceuticals, covering the majority of the Sudanese market. Werner Daum (Germany's ambassador to Sudan 1996–2000) wrote an article [3] in which he estimated that the attack "probably led to tens of thousands of deaths" of Sudanese civilians. The U.S. State Department Bureau of Intelligence and Research wrote a report in 1999 questioning the attack on the factory, suggesting that the connection to bin Laden was not accurate; James Risen reported in the New York Times: "Now, the analysts renewed their doubts and told Assistant Secretary of State Phyllis Oakley that the C.I.A.'s evidence on which the attack was based was inadequate. Ms. Oakley asked them to double-check; perhaps there was some intelligence they had not yet seen. The answer came back quickly: There was no additional evidence. Ms. Oakley called a meeting of key aides and a consensus emerged: Contrary to what the Administration was saying, the case tying Al Shifa to Mr. bin Laden or to chemical weapons was weak."

Sudan has been on the U.S. list of states that sponsor terrorism since 1993, and the U.N. Security Council imposed sanctions on Sudanfrom 1996 to 2001 because of its involvement with terrorism. The Islamist Arab government that controls most of the country has provided sanctuary to terrorists, including Osama bin Laden, and has let terrorist groups plan and carry out operations from Sudan.

What terrorist activities have been linked to Sudan?
A 1995 attempt to assassinate Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak during a visit to Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. The plot, by members of an Egyptian Islamist group known as Jamaat al-Islamiyya, was devised in Sudan; the state-owned airline carried the attackers’ weapons to Ethiopia; and when the plot was foiled, one of the alleged assassins escaped to Khartoum on a Sudan Airways flight. Sudan denied complicity but refused to turn over the would-be assassin and two others believed to be involved in the plot. The U.N. Security Council then placed a series of sanctions on Sudan, which lasted until late September 2001.
The simultaneous 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. Al-Qaeda members operating from Sudan, which borders on Kenya, helped carry out these bombings, which killed 224 people, including twelve Americans. In response, the United States launched a missile attack on a Khartoum factory that U.S. intelligence reports indicated was producing the nerve agent VX. The Sudanese government said that the factory made pharmaceutical products.
In 2001, a Sudanese-born suspect arrested in a foiled plot to bomb the U.S. embassy in New Delhi told Indian investigators that Sudanese diplomats had given him explosives and detonators.
In 1996, U.S. investigators linked two Sudanese diplomats in New York to a terrorist cell planning to bomb the United Nations and assassinate Mubarak in New York.

Its a terrorist state.

Afghanistan 1998
President Bill Clinton announced the attacks in a TV address, saying the Khost camp was "one of the most active terrorist bases in the world,"[13] adding that "I want the world to understand that our actions today were not aimed against Islam" which he called "a great religion."[14]

Some, however, including bin Laden, saw this as a way of attracting attention away from the Lewinsky scandal. On August 17, three days prior to the missile strike, President Clinton admitted in a [15] that he had an inappropriate relationship with White House intern Monica Lewinsky. This address followed President Clinton's grand jury testimony earlier that day (see Wag the Dog).

The minister of information of Sudan harshly condemned the attack on Khartoum and denounced Pres. Clinton as a "proven liar" with "100 girlfriends". [16] In Afghanistan the Taliban also denounced the bombing. Massive protests were staged around the world, mostly in Muslim countries, denouncing the attacks. In "retaliation", a Muslim organization bombed a Planet Hollywood restaurant in Cape Town, South Africa on August 25, killing two and injuring 26. Osama bin Laden also pledged to attack the US again.

Its a terrorist state.

Yugoslavia 1999
NATO's bombing campaign lasted from March 24 to June 11, 1999, involving up to 1,000 aircraft operating mainly from bases in Italy and aircraft carriers stationed in the Adriatic.

The proclaimed goal of the NATO operation was summed up by its spokesman as "Serbs out, peacekeepers in, refugees back". That is, Yugoslav troops would have to leave Kosovo and be replaced by international peacekeepers in order to ensure that the Albanian refugees could return to their homes. However, the summary had an unfortunate double meaning which caused NATO considerable embarrassment after the war, when over 200,000 Serbs and other non-Albanian minorities fled or were expelled from the province. It was also suggested that a small victorious war would help give NATO a new role. Politicians from NATO states used terms such as "humanitarian bombing" and "humanitarian war" to describe the intervention.

This was a NATO effort to stop the Serbian genocide.

Wow, we love to bomb places for no reason, and that was only the last five!

Dakatsu.... I'm not going to answer the rest of your list or anything more that you google because your last statement is really foolish. I was questioning Tigers comment that we "continually attack" countries specifically for power and greed and I still want to know which ones.

Bettina

Bet, his last statement was sarcasm.

Testiculese wrote:Bet, his last statement was sarcasm.

Maybe, but he seems so gleefully happy that if I was standing in front of him I would have poked him in the eye with my finger and watch him yell "ow" a dozen times.

Bee

We love to spend lots of money on military weapons. We have to power to just cruise missle a country to death, but why is it that we, as a nation, rarely give out humanitarian aid of the quality of our bombs.

I Sudan, we bombed a pharmecutical company that was producing medicine, something that country lacks. As of present day however, what are we doing to help in the genocide in Darfur, Sudan, where are the peacekeepers?

In Afgahanistan, we armed them, we! We spent millions upon millions giving a terrorist state, as you said, Bettina, to secure our intrests against the Soviets. We were suprised when we were attacked by a terrorist state, but most of their weapons are ours!

However, we never have attacked Saudi Arabia, despite their human rights abuses and religious persecution. Why have we attacked all these small countries, bombing them, but we have never \"liberated\" Saudi Arabia?

And of course, was it worth it to go into Vietnam, what were we trying to accomplish, let alone what we did accomplish?

So please tell me why we bomb these small countries, but never, with the amount of money we used to have, have rarely if ever helped a country like Sudan during the genocide, or fed starving children in Ethiopia. Why does our economy suck, our deficit in the billions, and our schools and wages suck, yet we always can squeeze that little bit out to bomb countries like these?

And my last comment was odviously sarcasm.

Maybe, but he seems so gleefully happy that if I was standing in front of him I would have poked him in the eye with my finger and watch him yell \"ow\" a dozen times.

Child abuse!

Besides, how do you know how happy I was when I typed that?

Dakatsu wrote:We love to spend lots of money on military weapons. We have to power to just cruise missle a country to death, but why is it that we, as a nation, rarely give out humanitarian aid of the quality of our bombs.

you can't really be that dense can you?????

the US give out more humanitarian aid than the rest of the world combined



http://www.un.org/depts/ocha/cap/appeals.html

also make up your mind, do you want us to stay out of other peoples business or be the world police force, you cannot have it both ways

Dang... Cuda beat me to it.

And Dakatsu, Our actions in Vietnam were to try to stop a communist takeover of South Vietnam from the Communist North. It was a bad war but here is an example... Ask people who lived in Poland and the former Czechoslovakia when it was under communist rule if they liked the russian tanks constantly entering their cities to make sure they towed the communist line.

What country do you think was instrumental in causing the breakup of the USSR?

Bettina

Just to be technical Bet: VietNam was a \"policing action\" as we never officially declared war. Mostly because we were scared to death that China would jump in if we did. That we could not afford.

Thus, we were not allowed to fight as we would if we were in a war; which means if you \"take ground\", you must retreat to your post as \"you\" as a force are in a non aggressive posture.

There were many other problems both politically and recourse wise. Really, the topic is far to complex to address it in one post.

..er.. just being technical.

CUDA, to be specific Dakatsu was comparing humanitarian aid to MILITARY money.

America's military budget is outof control, imagine what would happen if that money and effort were funneled into humanitarian efforts instead. It'd be a sight to see.

roid wrote:CUDA, to be specific Dakatsu was comparing humanitarian aid to MILITARY money.

[applause]

[/applause]

Roid got it roight, we may have the highest spending, but take a look at ANOTHER chart:

Our military budget is over 40% of our government spending. This is just plain outrageous. We spend over 571 billion dollars per year on the current wars we are in, that could be used for things I have mentioned before!

Also check this out:
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics ... oftheWorld

The highlights:

The US military spending was almost two-fifths of the world total for military spending.
The US military spending was almost 7 times larger than the Chinese budget, the second largest spender.
It was more than the combined spending of the next 14 nations.

So our military spending is over 2/5 of the entire worlds military spending! And below the chart, it says that excludes present day Iraq and Afghanistan, which would add over 75 billion per year.

Bettina wrote:And Dakatsu, Our actions in Vietnam were to try to stop a communist takeover of South Vietnam from the Communist North. It was a bad war but here is an example... Ask people who lived in Poland and the former Czechoslovakia when it was under communist rule if they liked the russian tanks constantly entering their cities to make sure they towed the communist line.

First of all, how do you know the tanks were specificaly made in Russia, what if they were Ukrainian made?!??!! (Sarcasm, do not poke me in the eyes...)

This is a hard one, go to war with the Soviet Union, or let rights abuses go on and on, I am not sure on that one... I really don't have a specific answer.

Bettina wrote:What country do you think was instrumental in causing the breakup of the USSR?

Actually one of the main things that got it down was Gorbachev, and his reforms that made them lose their economy, bringing development to a standstill and allowing for other republics in the Soviet Union to break away.

By 1990 the government had virtually lost control over economic conditions. Government spending increased sharply as an increasing number of unprofitable enterprises required state support and consumer price subsidies continued. Tax revenues declined because revenues from the sales of vodka plummeted during the anti-alcohol campaign and because republic and local governments withheld tax revenues from the central government under the growing spirit of regional autonomy. The elimination of central control over production decisions, especially in the consumer goods sector, led to the breakdown in traditional supply-demand relationships without contributing to the formation of new ones. Thus, instead of streamlining the system, Gorbachev's decentralization caused new production bottlenecks. --- from Wikipedia

Bet51987 wrote:

Testiculese wrote:List of countries the USA has bombed since the end of World War II:......

You didn't answer the question. What countries did the United States bomb purely for greed and power like Tiger implies.

I'd be willing to bet most of the ones that he listed were. Whether it's between them trying to make communists or facists seem like the evil people, or because a few of them have the potential to be a bit of a threat.
For example, how many of those countries had attacked the USA? That's what I'd call a real war. (and not just flimsy handful-of-terrorist attacks either)

TIGERassault wrote:(and not just flimsy handful-of-terrorist attacks either)

Ya like this incomplete list of 27 flimsy attacks

1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.

1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.

1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.

1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.

1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.

1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.

1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.

1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.

1995
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.

1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)

2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.

2003
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.

2004
May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.

2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: Suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.

2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy was foiled.

2007
Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy was fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.

Where the military budget is concerned. DO remember that just RUNNING one of the largest military forces on earth is expensive.

There is payroll, pensions, insurance, housing, utilities, repair to structures, raw materials for day to day business-which includes tools,(which enlisted personnel are STEALING hand over fist)office supplies, janitorial, fuel, parts..etc. I was in logistics in the Air Force. I've SEEN how much money is used just for the day to day. Run a business some time.

Sure there is a lot of money that goes into new toys and some to research. I think NASA is lumped under that category as well. Right now, the new F-35 and F-22's are coming on line to replace the retiring F-15, F-14 and F-16's these planes are over 20 years old. So yea. It takes money. What you worried about Roid? it's not YOU'RE money to begin with.

I've learned not to trust charts. Especially vague charts like that. Data can be too easily skewed when categories are broad and unexplained. It Is perdy though.

Anyone notice that Cuda's list post-dates my list?

yes, and he said it was incomplete.

Do you know why it does?