DescentBB

Posted: **Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:04 pm**

Dakatsu wrote:This just is not going to end...

Dakatsu wrote:It just never ends, no matter what is said.

That's a sorry attitude to take. I understand your feelings if you can see no point in the thread, but I for one do see a point, so your misgivings are just an unwelcome distraction. Like I said, the topic of Islam is not finished. There's more to be said.

Dedman, how old are you? 12? Don't be a jerk.

Posted: **Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:16 pm**

I read on .com that Dedman just likes to stir things up on this board.

Posted: **Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:27 pm**

Well, I read the same thing, but I don't totally buy it. He's obviously interested in some degree of reasonable argument, so I see it as a cop-out to avoid losing an argument, which is just lame.

Posted: **Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:44 pm**

Sergeant Thorne wrote:Like I said, the topic of Islam is not finished. There's more to be said.

But everyone says the EXACT same things! It isn't as if any startling realization from anyone about anything, nor any new subjects talked about!

Posted: **Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:04 pm**

If it's always the same thing, it's a wonder I haven't gotten tired of it. I tend to get annoyed with things that are needlessly repetitive.

I talked about a subject that I've never read about before just a few replies ago. Did you know that newer portions of the Koran can override older ones? Did you know that that's part of a a foundational difference between Judaism's scriptures (and thus the Bible--Christianity), and Islam's Koran? You're generalizing. If this depth of discussion is beyond you to the point that you see nothing new simply because there are people arguing for and against Islam, as in other threads, then maybe you need to go watch TV or play D3 and let this thread run its course.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:02 am**

Sergeant Thorne wrote:Dedman, how old are you? 12? Don't be a jerk.

I'm 42 and I'm not trying to be a jerk. I apologize if I came off that way.

Spidey wrote:I read on .com that Dedman just likes to stir things up on this board.

I admit that I will occasionally engage in fecal agitation, but I have not purposefully done so in this thread.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:I see it as a cop-out to avoid losing an argument, which is just lame.

Maybe it is a cop-out, although I'm not trying to avoid losing an argument. I've been married for 19 years, I'm used to losing them

It's just that in the 5 1/2 years I have been a regular on this board the pattern of debate hasn't really changed all that much. It starts out by someone making a statement or posing a question. Someone else will attempt to answer the question or state their opposing view. Then people start to get defensive and they dig in. Then the lobbing of names or insults frequently begins. At that point, actual dialog has ended, and people just talk at each other. That is about the time I lose interest. I believe that this thread has reached this point and I lamely used the "my work here is done" statement to bow out of the discussion. I should have just told every one to have a great day.

Have a great day.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:00 am**

Thunderbunny hates Muslims and keeps posting threads about it.
There are mulitple hateful Jesus freaks, i count Thorne and Aggressor Prime as recent \"woaaa\" examples.
Then you get the lesser Christians, Duper etc who can't really explain themselves too well but just make up vote numbers.
Spidey just came back - i think i was glad he left coz he was a cookie cutter redneck. It is interesting relearning who he is though.
Woodchip, Cuda, are basically just Spidey's brothers.

I'm mostly sick of talking to you people. i note you are all Americans. Well you are the type of Americans that the rest of the world is sick of hearing about. I certainly am sick of just seeing you around, and am sick of visiting this forum simply because people like you exist here. But hey - your type exists everywhere.
It is a pile of ugly american cliches, in human form.

I feel that in your presence, no new ideas can come forth, no progress can be made. You make this place boring and dull for people like me.
I talk to people to get new ideas, to learn things. I want to hear interesting things, from interesting people, who want what's best for the world and have good ideas on how to both impliment it and live their lives well. Then i want ideas to develop, mature, strategies to be worked out. But in your presence i find myself getting more and more misanthropic - i have less hope for the human race, and want to meet less people because i run the risk of meeting idiots like you. I want to have a filter - so that people like you are filtered out of my life, and i never ever have to see another person like you people ever again.
I'm tired. i think i'll goto bed.

I like the way this thread is going

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:49 am**

Don't forget to take your meds.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:31 am**

Which is why I haven't really engaged in this topic. it's just a giant joke.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:37 am**

Well I misunderstood then and I apologize, Dedman.

Who's intolerant now, Roid?

I see most of your intellectual excursions as a kind of rebellion against the norm. The rebellion part has been pretty well confirmed:

Aussies can REALLY party wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc0CB6URrV0
roid wrote:i can't stand this Current Affair *****, only old people watch it so they can discuss how "kids thesedays are outof control" around the nursing-home watercooler.

these sensationalist shows are specifically designed to appeal to such people, who seem to live off fingerpointing and moral-outrage.

It's just a party, gatecrashers are common.

The kid is my hero, refusing to be intimidated by that holier-than-thou ***** on national tv. His mocking apathy and completely lack of recognition or respect towards the reporter is entirely warrented, these TV shows are absolute guttertrash.
When she was asking him to take off his glasses, he should have replied by asking her to take off her shirt.

I could list dozen of topics you've started that are designed to push the limits. You don't like limits. What you and many people like yourself don't realize is that some limits are important. But you were brought up not knowing why, or worse, were brought up under unnaturally (unhealthy) strick limits, and are rebelling against that. The norm ain't all bad, and that's where people like you get off in left field. I've been brought up to appreciate the limits that most people no longer seem to understand (don't drink too much, don't smoke, don't do drugs, don't have sex until you're married, etc). Some limits are unnatural/harmful, some are safe. I'm surrounded, in my day-to-day life, by people almost absolutely devoid of the wisdom to recognize the difference between the two, and it's hurting them. The proof is definately in the pudding.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:45 am**

Ferno wrote:Which is why I haven't really engaged in this topic. it's just a giant joke.

As I have BEEN SAYING in my past posts!

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:24 pm**

Isn't it funny how in a country were racism & minority bashing is considered political incorrect at best (-> \"hate crimes\") everyone turns to a group that can be hated \"safely\". So much about tolerance, pathetic.

I have yet to see anybody actualy doing anything besides lobbying and being a loudmouth.

What am I supposed to do after watching this crap ? Always look over my shoulder for muslims ? Shoot them on sight ? Nuke their countries ? Talk to them ? What ?

Ah, maybe I shall vote for another dumb president promising me to \"take care\" of them and then run this country below ground level..

Roid, the movie is made by a dutch self acclaimed \"specialist\" on this topic, a right-wing lawyer. I still think that all lawyers should be quietly disposed of ASAP.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:54 pm**

Discussion about how radical Muslims interpret the Q'ran scriptures as a call to violence... it's true, and we need to be wary of this.

Discussion about how Sharia law often horribly mistreats women... it's true, and we should not just stand by and let it happen.

...

Grendel wrote:What am I supposed to do...? Always look over my shoulder for muslims ? Shoot them on sight ? Nuke their countries ? Talk to them ? What ?

Thank you, Gren. That's where this kind of thing disturbs me.

There are some very good sources of unbiased information about these topics... but there's also the kind of sensationalist fear-and-hate promotion that's far too popular here in the West.

You guys probably know what I'm talking about; I'm guessing you've heard some of the same sentiments I have from people who pay attention to that stuff:
"Let's just nuke 'em and be done with it"
"I don't care that he's an exchange student, he's not welcome here"
"Any Muslim is a bad Muslim in my book"

That kind of fear-and-hate sensationalism adds absolutely nothing to genuine education about the issues. In fact, I think it hurts the cause, because it turns genuine concern and truthful reporting into nothing less than propaganda.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:37 pm**

Dakatsu wrote:As I have BEEN SAYING in my past posts!

Just take it as an agreement and relax man.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:37 pm**

Click.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:47 pm**

Grendel wrote:Click.

Thank you.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:58 pm**

It's interesting how any discussion about islam is filled with accusations of racism or hate mongering.

As I have repeated again and again, I do not hate the human beings themselves- but I am disturbed by the ideology they have been brought up in and which they feverishly espouse not having known anything else.

Please spare me the false, tiresome and typical \"hate mongering\" and racism accusations. You are merely exposing your weakness and inability to address the facts at hand.

Liberal thought and freedom of expression is under threat by a bigoted and supremacist movement. Perhaps it would be more palatable to those of you that engage in self-hatred if it were imperialist/zionist/christian crusaders spreading a repressive moral code, but it is not in this case.

Do I feel threatened by Foil's flawed belief in a god or by his association with christians? Perhaps you're telling me I should- by equating christianity with islam.

Maybe I should fear Grendel because he's german. No?

Both have had associations with supremacist ideologies in the past...but those associations are gone and defunct- islam is alive and well as a supremacist religion/ideology/social structure and political movement.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:02 pm**

ThunderBunny wrote:Please spare me the false, tiresome and typical "hate mongering" and racism accusations.

I don't accuse you of that at all, TB. Having met you and from your posts above, I know you're not hateful or racist.

However, I do think that kind of message is pretty typical with sensationalist videos like this "Fitna".

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:40 pm**

Spiegel's Fatma Aykut wrote:Wilders' accompanies these "shocking images" with quotations from the Koran, an effort to expose Islam's holiest text as a well-spring of hate. That makes it difficult for me, a totally average Muslim, to defend Islam as a peaceful religion.

Yes, the facts do have a way of gumming up that argument.

Spiegel's Fatma Aykut wrote:These quotations are not made up -- they can actually be found in the Koran. Passages from the holy book that rail hatefully against Jews have, unfortunately, long been misused as propaganda.

Doesn't sounds like a misuse to me.

Spiegel's Fatma Aykut wrote:That is tragic, as it is tragic that similar anti-Semitic passages are just as common in the Bible.

Wow. The Bible (she would have to be referring to the New Testament) contains no "similar" anti-Semitic passages. The most "anti-Semitic" passage in the Bible, I believe, would be...

Romans 11 wrote:Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.

The New Testament speaks against non-messianic Jews as being wrong, and even devious, but it never calls for violence against them. Rather they are portrayed, contrary to the beliefs of some popular "Christianity", as the ones to whom salvation belongs to first.

Romans 11 wrote:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation [has come] to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall [is] riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! 13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy [those who are] my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away [is] the reconciling of the world, what [will] their acceptance [be] but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit [is] holy, the lump [is] also [holy;] and if the root [is] holy, so [are] the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, [remember that] you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well [said.] Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in [His] goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who [are] natural [branches,] be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this [is] My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel [they are] enemies for your sake, but concerning the election [they are] beloved for the sake of the fathers.

(The natural olive branches it refers to are the Jews)

Spiegel's Fatma Aykut wrote:"Fitna" was an attempt -- a cheap, transparent attempt -- to lump together every Muslim immigrant in Europe as potential terrorists, as threats to hard-won democracies, as beasts driven by base instinct.

If we are to believe that this man's purpose was to utterly demonize the Muslin people themselves, then why did he, at the end of the film, encourage Muslims to tears out the violent parts of the Koran?

If Islam is peace, then it's absolutely ineffectual. It seems like every time the religion is publicly spoken against and insulted people are killed (Spiegel Photo Gallery).

And what is up with you guys accusing myself and some of the other people on here of hate? Are you skimming, or is your brain just hardwired to recognize non-acceptance as intolerance and hate? Shut your eyes/ears tight and run with that... just like ThunderBunny, I have also taken pains to make it clear that I don't hate the people (in fact, I have a lot of respect for Arabs and various commendable aspects of their culture).

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:56 pm**

Roid, now you’re really pissin me off! Why are you lumping me in with the Islam bashers…DID YOU EVEN BOTHER TO READ MY FIRST POST? You get a lot of respect on this board, dare I say, far more that you deserve, I might even go so far as to say you get treated with kid gloves. But you continue to trash people, people who are polite to you in return. I read the crap you get on the .com board…do you want to get treated like that here? You attack Christians constantly, prolly because they don’t slam you right back like you deserve.

JFTR I have 3 brothers and none of them are rednecks.

The gloves are off from here on, you poor excuse for an intellectual.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:58 pm**

Sergeant Thorne wrote:
Spiegel's Fatma Aykut wrote:"Fitna" was an attempt -- a cheap, transparent attempt -- to lump together every Muslim immigrant in Europe as potential terrorists, as threats to hard-won democracies, as beasts driven by base instinct.
If we are to believe that this man's purpose was to utterly demonize the Muslin people themselves, then why did he, at the end of the film, encourage Muslims to tears out the violent parts of the Koran?

Simply because it's a shocking/sensational proposition.

It appeals to his audience, but it's not even a reasonable suggestion or solution to ask anyone of any faith to tear out pages from the scripture they base their faith on.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:And what is up with you guys accusing myself and some of the other people on here of hate?

I never accused anyone here of hatred, though I've seen it far too often in people who believe they mean well.

I'm simply pointing out that videos like this "Fitna" actually hurt the cause you and Thunderbunny support, because they've gone way across the line from truth into sensationalism and fear-marketing.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:21 pm**

Foil wrote:Discussion about how radical Muslims interpret the Q'ran scriptures as a call to violence... it's true, and we need to be wary of this.

Discussion about how Sharia law often horribly mistreats women... it's true, and we should not just stand by and let it happen.

Exactly, which is why I see no problem with ThunderBunny bringing it out in the open. I like the constant reminder of how backward and unloving Islam is, and of all the deaths it still causes... even in modern times.

Bee

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:58 pm**

Bet51987 wrote:Exactly, which is why I see no problem with ThunderBunny bringing it out in the open.

Agreed. These issues need to be addressed.

However, if we're going to talk about the problems with Islam and/or radical Islamic violence, it needs to be done without all the sensationalist hype that comes with fear-marketing videos like "Fitna", and some of the other articles I've seen which only serve to de-legitimize their stance.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:05 pm**

Foil wrote:
Bet51987 wrote:Exactly, which is why I see no problem with ThunderBunny bringing it out in the open.
Agreed. These issues need to be addressed.

However, if we're going to talk about the problems with Islam and/or radical Islamic violence, it needs to be done without all the sensationalist hype that comes with fear-marketing videos like "Fitna", and some of the other articles I've seen which only serve to de-legitimize their stance.

Agreed. So would you say it's ok to use current events like CNN articles?

EDIT.. I mean without the videos from unreliable sources.

Bee

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:21 pm**

Reputable news sources, yes, absolutely.

(I'm assuming you have an article or two in mind?

)

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:21 pm**

ThunderBunny wrote:Both have had associations with supremacist ideologies in the past...but those associations are gone and defunct- islam is alive and well as a supremacist religion/ideology/social structure and political movement.

Not exactly true. Where I live (now and in the past) the nazi supremacist ideologie is more threatening to my lifestyle than islamic extremists. I agree that that will be changing in the future but not because of the islamic extremists as the main cause. The restrictions to my way of life will be imposed by the government for the sake of me being safe from those extremists, JIC. They will argue like this "Liberal thought and freedom of expression is under threat by a bigoted and supremacist movement. We will protect you from it by monitoring every move you do and other things."

I did not accuse anyone of hate mongering BTW.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:57 pm**

Reputable news sources, yes, absolutely.

It would be interesting to see what you consider reputable. All sources have become rather tilted these days (or rather unmasked) in their underlying governing ideologies.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:03 pm**

A refreshing perspective from a Brit.

The religion of fear

Appeasing Islam

Excellent!

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:05 pm**

That guy seems to have a little problem expressing himself.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:41 pm**

Spidey wrote:Roid, now you’re really pissin me off! Why are you lumping me in with the Islam bashers…DID YOU EVEN BOTHER TO READ MY FIRST POST?

i think the first post i ever read of yours, like many people here, was back in September 2001 when most Americans here were calling for the Middle East to be nuked.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:19 pm**

EDIT:

Forget it, Im not going there again.

Posted: **Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:53 pm**

Foil wrote:However, if we're going to talk about the problems with Islam and/or radical Islamic violence, it needs to be done without all the sensationalist hype that comes with fear-marketing videos like "Fitna", and some of the other articles I've seen which only serve to de-legitimize their stance.

no kiddin. I saw a bit of Fitna and immediately turned it off because of the sensationalist and propagandistic nature.

it made me ill, to be honest.

DescentBB

Banned and removed...

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