DescentBB

TechPro wrote:From my point of view, not continuing to exist after death makes life extremely pointless. Quite possibly the most depressing thing I could think of.

Quoted for truthiness. My hope is that something happens after you die, and as Foil said so well, the most depressing thing is that "you" as a person and as a consciousness are lost forever.

This life is special because I don't know what happens after I die. It could be bad (think about hell, except everyone goes there), but I would prefer to keep my consciousness and be in hell for the rest of my life, than lose my consciousness in nothing.

Just typing this up is making me very teary-eyed, and it's generally hard to make 15yo boys tear up by a post, so it kind of proves the sadness I feel when I think about life after death and think for a minute that there is nothing

Bet51987 wrote:

roid wrote:It's not the experience of nothingness than i fear. It's the practical finality of it. It's perhaps the ultimate form of 'fear of loss'.

Why? Did you fear the eternity before you were born?

Life is already nothing. Pretend your life was a yardstick. Paint the first 12 inches black to represent the nothing before you were born. Paint the next 12 inches white to represent your life. Then paint the last 12 inches black to represent the nothing after death. But, since you won't have any memories, you might as well paint the white part black too.

Bee

like any human i spent the first few months of my life prettymuch mentally retarded, i don't want to go back to that either.
It's only now that i can fear to go back.


i wasn't happy when i didn't exist. i wasn't sad either. i just "wasn't". Now that i've experienced it, i think "existing" is what i want to do from now on. Everything that's going on, is going on here.



If i was really enjoying myself at Disneyland, and someone kicked me out and said i could never ever go back - and then erased my memory of Disneyland. I wouldn't want that to happen. I'd stuggle against it.
I don't want the terms of my existance dictated to me, I want control, I want continual uninterupted self-actualisation, I want life. If i want to stay in Disneyland forever, then that's what i want to happen and i don't want anything to get in the way of that. I know what i want.
I simply want - what i want. I do not want anything to get in the way of that, ie: death.


Perhaps not caring about what happens after you die coz you'll be too dead to care, is like the solipsistic thought that the world is all contained without your own head so when you die the whole world dies with you. But the world doesn't die when you die. Likewise - the motives i had in this life will not die when i die - as if they never existed. My motives are shared by most humans, so i look at my own death as how i would look at someone else's death: It's tragic, i wish it never happened.

Or more like: How would i feel when i'm in Disneyland, and i watch from the inside as someone gets unwillingly permanently kicked outof Disneyland (and mind wiped)? While i'm happily still in there.
I'd wish they were still in here with me - i'd be enjoying their company, they'd be enjoying mine, we'd both be enjoying Disneyland.
It's not like they are suffering outside, but look at what they're missing out on!

When you die - from that point on you miss out on everything. You wouldn't care, but if you could you would. Things don't become meaningless when you can't do them. People that get paralysed and stuck in a wheelchair don't suddenly conclude that running around is stupid. The motives that we once had linger on in the shared human consciousness, and can be appreciated by anyone. Even after we can't enjoy running around anymore - other people still can - and they'd empathise that i wish i could still run around too.

My lust for life is not personal, it's shared by everyone who lived before me, and everyone who will outlive me (and mourn my death, just as i mourned others while i was alive). Everyone can empathise with it. It's very real, it doesn't suddenly not-matter when i die just coz i can't see it anymore.

I fear getting old and frail more than I fear death. I'm a very active person and enjoy my mobility. Thinking of getting old, where I may require help to go pee scares me.

I've also told my wife if I ever become a paraplegic, let me die. I don't want to live that way. I'm not worried about Heaven or Hell as I don't beleive in it.

Death is part of life. We can't deny it or stop it. All we can do is accept it. Enjoy your life as it is your last ebcause it could be. We don't know what happens after we die. No one does. Not even people who say they have come back. They all say they saw a bright light etc. Well, this could be ANYTHING.

Live life to the fullest extent you can.

Wow, some very quotable stuff there, roid.

roid wrote:If i was really enjoying myself at Disneyland, and someone kicked me out and said i could never ever go back - and then erased my memory of Disneyland. I wouldn't want that to happen. I'd stuggle against it.
...
Or more like: How would i feel when i'm in Disneyland, and i watch from the inside as someone gets unwillingly permanently kicked outof Disneyland (and mind wiped)? While i'm happily still in there.
I'd wish they were still in here with me - i'd be enjoying their company, they'd be enjoying mine, we'd both be enjoying Disneyland.
It's not like they are suffering outside, but look at what they're missing out on!

That analogy makes a lot of sense to me. I went to Disneyland when I was about three or four, and I really have almost no memories of it at all. But the fact that I don't remember it doesn't imply a lack of meaning for the experience.

roid wrote:It's very real, it doesn't suddenly not-matter when i die just coz i can't see it anymore.

Well put.

So then why do Christians cry when someone dies? Apparently it's no big deal, so why the crocodile tears?

Testi, as I tried to say earlier, Christians don't believe that this life is \"unimportant\" or that death is \"no big deal\". A very few do, but it would be inaccurate to apply that to perspective to all or even a majority of Christians.

For a Christian, this life is a huge deal, for a number of reasons. There's some comfort in knowing that there's a chance we'll see people again in the afterlife, but that doesn't take away from the feelings of grief and loss.

Jesus cried when his friend Lazarus died. A good example (for me at least) is my grandma. She's getting up there in years (90 this year I think) and she's starting to loose some of her cognizance. I don't think she will be with us too much longer. When she does die, I AM going to be sad but I won't grieve extensively. Why? couple of reasons. One, she told me not to. She is a Christian and she absolutely does not fear death. In fact, I think she's looking forward to it. That and I know that she will be ok and I'll see her again. But I think this a rare situation.

Christians, like anyone, feel pain. There is no shame in that. What the bible says is that we've no reason to grieve as those with no hope. But in light of this, the modern western mind set is a bit more callous that it used to be and a bit cooler (as in cold not as in being neet-o) So i think the notion of \"having no hope\" is swiftly becoming foreign.

The amount of crying when someone dies is often due to two things 1) How tragic the loss of that person may be, and 2) How much the persons remaining will miss the person who died. Not so much because the person died.

Something of note: Mormon funerals often are not so full of crying, only sadness due to missing the presence of the person who died. Why? Mormons believe the person is alive and well (though now just as a spirit) and is freed from the hardships the rest of us are enduring. They also believe the person who died is now probably able to be occupied at either helping/teaching others who have also died or are themselves able to be helped/taught (if the person wishes) by good persons who've also died.

In case you're wondering, Mormons usually are not in any hurry to die because most are very aware that there is much more they themselves could/should do to be ready for whatever comes after life ... and usually do not feel ready to die... yet.

TechPro wrote:The amount of crying when someone dies is often due to two things 1) How tragic the loss of that person may be, and 2) How much the persons remaining will miss the person who died. Not so much because the person died.

X2

TechPro wrote:How much time of "the easy life" do you have remaining?

You think living with a pregnant woman is EASY?

roid wrote:When you die - from that point on you miss out on everything. You wouldn't care, but if you could you would.

Yes, you care NOW that you WON'T care THEN. Very good point. Very interesting post!

To put an entirely practical spin on in. My grandmother died of Alzheimer's. After her brain had reached a certain level of collapse, she was no longer unhappy. Actually, she was even happier than she had been before. But she couldn't remember people, she had no idea what had happened yesterday, every experience was just moment by moment.

Before the degeneration reached that point, there was a period when her mind was fading, and she was still aware enough to KNOW it was fading. And it made her miserable. She was not only unhappy that she couldn't remember things that happened before, she was unhappy even about the present, because she knew that in just a few days, or even hours, that experience would probably slip through the holes in her mind and be gone as well. It made her VERY frustrated that no matter what she did, it would all be gone in just a little while, that everything she was, everything she experienced, and all of her own thoughts were so obviously ephemeral. It threatened her personhood to see all of her own continuity failing. It was a TERRIBLE way to die.

So yes, I'm not afraid of the experience of nothingness, but I'll have to agree that I find the thought of not existing forever unpleasant. If that is the case, then we die, our consciousness is blown out like a candle, our brains rot, and eventually the sun expands and everything on this planet is broken down into it's constituent atoms. We made no mark, left no sign, accomplished nothing. Our memories, our tears, our laughter, our loves, our hates, everything that made us us, will not mean anything to anyone. It will all be as if we never were.

Bettina wrote:Couldn't I go out on a limb and say that religious feelings of living eternally is more out of selfishness and greed? Wink Just messing around..

But it is a very valid point. If people are trying to be religious, just because they want to live forever, they are coming at it from the wrong angle. It's like rushing to get married to someone you don't love, just because you want to have sex. Good sex FOLLOWS love, and if you don't love your spouse, all the "good sex" in the world won't make them worth living with. AND, if you truly love your spouse, you'd want to be married to them, even if you could never have sex.

And that's the way Christians are supposed to be (although we certainly do not always achieve it). The wonderful thing about living forever, is that we get to be with God. And even if we couldn't live forever, if this life were it and there was no after life at all, we'd still want to live this life as close to God as we can get.

Kilarin wrote:

Bettina wrote:Couldn't I go out on a limb and say that religious feelings of living eternally is more out of selfishness and greed? Wink Just messing around..

But it is a very valid point. If people are trying to be religious, just because they want to live forever, they are coming at it from the wrong angle. It's like rushing to get married to someone you don't love, just because you want to have sex. Good sex FOLLOWS love, and if you don't love your spouse, all the "good sex" in the world won't make them worth living with. AND, if you truly love your spouse, you'd want to be married to them, even if you could never have sex.

And that's the way Christians are supposed to be (although we certainly do not always achieve it). The wonderful thing about living forever, is that we get to be with God. And even if we couldn't live forever, if this life were it and there was no after life at all, we'd still want to live this life as close to God as we can get.

Well said.

I once heard it said that Eternal life starts NOW. Not when you die. Christ said: \"I Came that you might have life and have it more abundantly.\"John 10:10

UB40 said:
There's no-one coming with that freedom train.
There's nowhere you can go where you feel no pain.
Take the blinkers off you eye's,
The power is in your hand.
Stop waiting for your ticket to the promised land.

There ain't no heaven and there ain't no hell.
Except the one we're in, and you know too well
There's no-one waiting on,
Waiting on a higher high.
Don't let the only world you're ever gonna live in pass you by.

I think they got it right.

You take theological advice from a group that wrote a song called \"The Love Shack\"?! ...ew...

Duper wrote:You take theological advice from a group that wrote a song called "The Love Shack"?! ...ew...

Hmmm ... I thought the B-52s wrote "The Love Shack".

Yup.
http://www.oracleband.net/Lyrics/love_shack.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Shack

UB40 info...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UB40

Personally, I disagree with the message of that UB40 quote, but that's my opinion.

If you want to find the truth in life'
Don't pass music by
Eric Burdon-Monterey

The only incontrovertible, iron clad fact you have about life is that you are alive. Everything else is just speculation. You can guess and discuss and contemplate all you like and you will not come up with one more solid, indisputable fact. If you want meaning then you need to decide for yourself what it will be. If you want to put what might happen after you die above what is happening right now you have every right to do so. If you want to concentrate on what it is to be alive, right now, at this moment in time then at least you have something solid to work with. What gives you joy, right now? Will you survive and prosper given what you can do right now? Will your family survive and prosper given what you can do for them right now? What can you do right now to improve the world you live in? You are alive, right now, in this moment of time. Focus on that, let go of what has happened and allow what will happen to do so.

You may now return to your version of reality. Enjoy.

Love Shack indeed! UB 40 did write Don't Look Slow Down:
Don`t slow down don`t touch the ground,
You know what you will find;
That old grey man in tattered clothes
following behind.

Ford Prefect wrote:...If you want to put what might happen after you die above what is happening right now you have every right to do so. ... You are alive, right now, in this moment of time. Focus on that...

Ford, I think you'll find that the people who believe in an afterlife will agree with the above just as much as someone who believes this is all we have. Faith in another existence doesn't imply a lack of focus or meaning for this one.

[Sure, there are people who anticipate heaven or fear hell so much that they can't focus on the present, but they're not as common as people here are implying. I happen to know one guy who is like that... but he's the exception to the rule.]

In fact, as a Christian, I'm taught by Christ himself not to worry about the future:

Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 6 wrote:"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own."

Oddly Foil the same verse is often used to show that you should concern yourself only with the hereafter and not at all with this world. That is the first time I have seen it used the other way.
And yes those that spend the majority of their days in negotiation with their deity, deciding what they can trade off doing (or not doing) today so that they can do other things after they are dead are not the majority. Doesn't mean that they don't deserve a good taking to though.

Ford Prefect wrote:Oddly Foil the same verse is often used to show that you should concern yourself only with the hereafter and not at all with this world. That is the first time I have seen it used the other way.

Really? Interesting that I've only heard it used once (incorrectly, I believe) as you described.

foil i generally hear that in the context of \"take care of God and God will take care of you\".

I'm with Foil on this one. I've not heard that. or if I did, I dismissed it as silly.

That's the first time I've ever heard that saying Roid. Where have you heard that? ...er ... you ARE half a world away.

first thing that came to mind, i just made it up . Put inverted commas around it to indicate it's something that someone would say.