DescentBB

flip wrote:Sorry but I see no where anyone said "white folks are discriminated against even worse". My only point is that blacks and whites are very similar in those respects. If it's wrong for someone white to make racist remarks against blacks, then it is also wrong for blacks to do the same.

I also think that the keyword in your post is "low income". Thats the biggest problem we have here in this country. I know just as many whites that dont have a pot to piss in either. When will we realize thats the whole reason the media keeps these things stirred up. The biggest difference in this country is not white, black or hispanics. It's the difference between the rich and the poor.

You totally misinterpreted the meaning of my post. Hope this helps clear things up for you.

Exactly!! I spent 4 years on St. Paul MN east side where I was the minority and it sucked. But the real drive behind it was low income. They all assumed because I was white I had money and I became a target for that reason. Which is why I firmly believe we need to re-direct some of our money that goes over sea's and invest in our own people's education and such.

woodchip wrote:Before we all go off on a limb, the 95% figure is based on black democrats. In a national election between McCain and Hussein I wonder what the black breakdown will be when black Republicans are factored in.

Why call him Hussein? Unless you were going for the rhyme I have to wonder....
No excuses.

“People are people wherever you go.” -Elwood P. Dowd

\"Where ever you go there you are\" Mad Max beyond Thunder dome

\"Where the white women at?\" Cleavon Little - Blazzing Saddles.

CUDA wrote:"Where ever you go there you are" Mad Max beyond Thunder dome

also Buckaroo Bonzai.
HERE is an interesting exploration of that phrase.

Heh, Foil’s post is exactly why we can never discuss race issues in this country.

I grew up in a black hood, and let me tell you, I faced black hatred in it’s full glory!

The chant was “Ongowa Ongowa…this is black powa, destroy white boy\". I have seen uncountable instances of outright hatred, down to the milder kind, like where I heard a woman tell her children “ You don’t have to listen to that whitey” (talking about a school teacher)

I’ll say this…it all depends who is in charge, or who is in the majority, that determines who takes the brunt of it.

And I must say Foil was pretty far off base anyway, I didn’t hear anything like what he said.

This is my point, and was already pretty much said by Will…

If a white person does something, it’s racism…if a black does the exact same thing, we go looking for a new word. It’s because we have too many people in this country pandering to people, for political, and or personal reasons.

If it’s racism…then it’s racism…period

I grew up with the term “Reverse Racism” it was used to describe when a minority was doing racist things…well that’s just the kind of double speak that perpetuates this problem. Racism has no direction, but you can imply that racism goes from white to black as the default direction, that’s total BS! Racism has no direction…it always goes from the perpetrator to the victim.

Spidey wrote:I grew up with the term “Reverse Racism” it was used to describe when a minority was doing racist things…well that’s just the kind of double speak that perpetuates this problem. Racism has no direction, but you can imply that racism goes from white to black as the default direction, that’s total BS! Racism has no direction…it always goes from the perpetrator to the victim.

That was exactly the point I was making in my last post. There is too much emotional baggage with the word racism. For a lot of people it means whites discriminating against blacks. But it isn't just that. It's anyone discriminating against anyone based on the color of thier skin.

Until we as a nation can come to a concensus on exactly what it is we are talking about, we will never be able to have productive dialogue on this matter. And as Will said, revenge shouldn't have a seat at that table.

The word works perfectly well when used to describe whites….so why do we need another word…and will it be applied to whites as well?

Agreed, racism is racism is racism, no matter who from. Apparently I misunderstood flip's post earlier... my apologies.

------------

Allow me to clarify my own post:

My point was that every time the topic of racism against a minority comes up, the standard response by caucasians is:

• \"Well, what about the double standard?\"
• \"I'm tired of hearing this.\"
• \"They have no right to complain; it happens to my people too.\"

Sure, it's true that it happens to every group, but there's no real acknowledgement of the problem, and any attempt to talk about it is countered with \"What about us? It's so unfair...\"

Personally, I consider that nothing but a cop-out, or a dodge tactic.

-----------

I appreciate the recent posts, as I'll admit that I mis-estimated the attitudes in here. I suppose that the above is just the kind of thing I hear pretty often, especially in the seemingly 98%-white area where I live now.

Will Robinson wrote:

woodchip wrote:Before we all go off on a limb, the 95% figure is based on black democrats. In a national election between McCain and Hussein I wonder what the black breakdown will be when black Republicans are factored in.

Why call him Hussein? Unless you were going for the rhyme I have to wonder....
No excuses.

Why not call him Hussein? Is it intrisically worse than calling him Obama or Barack? Or were you making some obtuse point?

woodchip wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:

woodchip wrote:Before we all go off on a limb, the 95% figure is based on black democrats. In a national election between McCain and Hussein I wonder what the black breakdown will be when black Republicans are factored in.

Why call him Hussein? Unless you were going for the rhyme I have to wonder....
No excuses.

Why not call him Hussein? Is it intrisically worse than calling him Obama or Barack? Or were you making some obtuse point?

In a vacuum no. But two things immediately come to mind.

1)It is not the norm in our culture to refer to someone by their middle name unless they have made it quite clear that's how they want to be addressed (that happens quite often here in the south).

2)The name Hussein invokes an immediate mental image when people here it. That image is rarely, if at all, favorable.

So, when you use an emotionally charged name in a manner not generally consistent with the social norm, most people probably reach the same conclusion I did. You are trying to negatively color people perceptions of and/or are trying to attach negative emotions to Senator Obama.

You could have just as easily called him "Obama or Barack" and people would have known exactly who you were referring to. You didn't have to poison the well to get your point across.

Then again, I suspect you already knew that.

I’m sure Dubya would agree.

You are right Dedman. When I start hearing the media label him as the new Messiah I become distrustful. When I hear people say they are voting for him because he is black I become distrustful. When I hear the views of his pastor I become distrustful. When I hear he is chummy with someone who believed bombing buildings is something to brag about I become distrustful.
So I think using his middle name of Hussein is apropos.

And Spidey, just what does \"Dubya\" have to do with this topic? More appropriately I'm sure Hillary would agree

Pet a racoon and learn to trust more

Oh, and stop watching so much nightly news. They all idiots.

woodchip wrote: And Spidey, just what does "Dubya" have to do with this topic? More appropriately I'm sure Hillary would agree

Nothing...

I was agreeing with dedman that the use of a middle name, in this case “Dubya” is used to paint a negative picture of someone.

He was lecturing you…so I pointed out how people have done it to the president.

All is fair in politics.

My apologies Spidey as I seem to have epic failed at understanding your intent. Guess I've been responding to Zuruck for too many years

woodchip wrote:You are right Dedman. When I start hearing the media label him as the new Messiah I become distrustful. When I hear people say they are voting for him because he is black I become distrustful. When I hear the views of his pastor I become distrustful. When I hear he is chummy with someone who believed bombing buildings is something to brag about I become distrustful.
So I think using his middle name of Hussein is apropos....

Those are all specific things about a specific person and worthy of concern. But instead detailing your specific concerns you call him Hussien trying to label him as arabic/muslim so you imply that any arabic/muslim person is to be distrusted.

You are only preaching to the racist choir when you take legitimate dislikes about a specific person and express them as racial epithets.
You shoot yourself in the foot by doing it that way because any open minded listener will recognize your racially charged slam and become distrustful of you!

By the way, I don't claim to be perfect in this area, I have learned to bite my tongue and check my own logic and prejudice because I grew up with the same bad habits but I'm trying to stand up and make no excuses.

Spidey wrote:....

I was agreeing with dedman that the use of a middle name, in this case “Dubya” is used to paint a negative picture of someone.....

Spidey, I believe the nickname Dubya is considered a term of endearment by the President, his friends call him that not his enemies and as far as I know there is no racial component to it, a friendly jab at Texas drawl but as a Texan I can say that doesn't bother us one bit.

That’s odd, because I’ve only heard it used by his detractors, but you could be correct.

Is it possible he adopted it, the same way others have done with derogatory terms to reverse the meaning?

Anyway I didn’t mean any disrespect.

BTW…Will, I think you’re being unfair to Woody, I believe he is using the term in a political way, not as a racial slur.

As I said \"all is fair in politics\"

Spidey wrote:...
BTW…Will, I think you’re being unfair to Woody, I believe he is using the term in a political way, not as a racial slur.

As I said "all is fair in politics"

Ask yourself, what is the purpose of this particular "political way".

For me, saying "all is fair in politics" is making an excuse.
If we all stand up when we see/hear these things and say enough is enough we can have that discussion on race that you think can't be had....
No excuses.

Just thinking, considering how discrimination based on heritage is also racism, I'd be willing to bet that most, if not all, of us are racist!
I mean, how many times have you thought \"Americans are X. Europeans are Y. Canadians are Z.\"

*cough*Will*ahem*firstpage*wheeze*

Well I don’t want to go on & on speaking for Woody but, I think the point here is to associate him with Sodamn Insane or terrorism, not to make a racial point.

The names Obama or Barack are just as ethnic as Hussein, so I don’t see the racial connection here…unless you want to see it.

I’ll let Woody present any further argument on this point, maybe I’m speaking out of place.

TIGERassault wrote:Just thinking, considering how discrimination based on heritage is also racism, I'd be willing to bet that most, if not all, of us are racist!
I mean, how many times have you thought "Americans are X. Europeans are Y. Canadians are Z."

*cough*Will*ahem*firstpage*wheeze*

I know we all discriminate based on race and to a lesser degree nationality or heritage.

My slam on the first page toward Europeans with regards to their not electing minorities to high office is based on comments I've heard from Europeans.
Is my mentioning it due to some kind of nationalistic prejudice? I don't know, I did enjoy pointing out the double standard though.

Spidey wrote:Well I don’t want to go on & on speaking for Woody but, I think the point here is to associate him with Sodamn Insane or terrorism, not to make a racial point....

How does the name Hussien associate someone with terrorism? Yes Saddam Hussein has that as his surname but having the same name as someone else doesn't usually imply you share any other similar characteristics. John Wayne Gacy and John Wayne, both pedophiles and mass murderers or both movie stars?!?

The only way it associates Obama with terrorists is if Woody thinks the listener believes all Hussiens are terrorists. I don't believe Woody believes that but he knows Obama and his supporters would be aggravated by his using that name...it's a poke in the eye that only works by playing off of the underlying bigotry implied.

The irony of this debate about the name Hussein is that Saddam Hussein was a secular leader.

Secular terrorist, religious terrorist…same difference.

I used Baracks middle name expressly because Barack and his Messiah induced followers don't want it to be used.
Why? Is Hussein a name unworthy to be born? Does Barack \"Hussein\" Obama then insult all arabs who have the name Hussein? Why cannot he be proud of the name his parents gave him? The answer is simple. Since he is running for president he does not want to be seen as having anything to do with the middle east and Islam. So who in reality is racist? Me for simply using his middle name, or Barack for trying to disassociate himself from a segment of the worlds population?

Just like his now \"Ex\" pastor, Hussein wants us to believe that 40+ years of making bad acquaintances, they can all be waved away. I quite frankly do not want someone like Hussein any where near the nuclear football.

As to being racist, lets not presume too much. Baracks mother was white. As such he is neither white, nor black but rather a mulatto. So the black folk are being scammed that he is the Great Black Hope when in reality he had to join Rev. Wrights church to get \"Black\" credentials. What? He is so embarrassed about the white side of fence that he wants to disavow himself from his \"Whitey\" side?

So far I can see no worthwhile quality's in Lord Hussein. If you do, that is your perogative. Just don't presume I am racist by pointing out the hypocrisy of a possible leader of this country.

If he was personally anti Arab he would have changed his name long ago, if, on the other hand, he is running for president in a country that has a lot of voters suspicious of Arabs right now he can't just file a paper requesting they open their minds the way he could have filed a paper to change his name. So I don't think you can call him a racist just because he would prefer people don't use his Arabic sounding middle name. If you want to draw any conclusion from his position on the issue you should conclude that he's savvy enough to know there are a bunch stupid voters in this country that can be manipulated by relatively simple means...even just associating a candidate with an Arabic sounding name is enough to fool some of them.

By the way, I never called you racist, I implied that calling Obama by his middle name Hussein capitalizes on the bigotry of others to cast him in a negative light and suggested you should stick to describing the specifics about what you don't like about the individual man instead of race baiting. Whether or not you are personally prejudice or not doesn't matter, you know the effect of your comments will create prejudice. Taking the cheap shot calls your motives into question and dilutes your argument which otherwise has substance.

woodchip wrote:Baracks mother was white. As such he is neither white, nor black but rather a mulatto. So the black folk are being scammed that he is the Great Black Hope when in reality he had to join Rev. Wrights church to get "Black" credentials.

I don't think thats fair. I don't have the statistics, but I would be quite surprised if more then 20% of blacks in America had no "white blood" in them.

In fact African American historians list the number of 1/8th. In that it is only if someone is 1/8th black or less, that society is likely to consider them white.

Since Barack's father was from Africa, I think its more fair to point out that no one in his family experienced the Jim Crow era, or the civil rights struggle, etc.

In that sence I agree that he is somewhat disasociated from the black community. I think thats fair, and I think that is why you see such a "hope contrast" between Barack and Michelle.

Quit scuttling past this problem, the only reason you used his middle name is to associate him with Saddam Hussein.

End of story; that is the only reason it is used.

it may surprise you Dakatsu, That I never once thought of Saddam. Nice to see that you did tho.

And Will, since this is politics, my calling Barak by his middle name is far less onerous than Barak saying McCain is losing his bearings. So Will, my using Hussein is nothing more than hardball politics without any of the political correctness you or anyone may ascribe to. Politics is filled with cheap shots.

woodchip wrote:...So Will, my using Hussein is nothing more than hardball politics without any of the political correctness you or anyone may ascribe to. Politics is filled with cheap shots.

Just because something qualifies as hardball politics doesn't change the nature of it.
Telling black voters a vote for Republicans was a vote for another black church to be burnt was hardball politics, you didn't approve of that though did you?

Hardball is the use of factual material. Telling black voters a vote for a republican is a vote for a burnt church has no basis in fact. Quite the contrary when you look back and see what party controlled the southern states when black lynchings, the Klan ruled supreme and who has a ex-klansman as a elder statesman.
You do see the difference between hardball and smearing now?

So what is the basis in fact that supports race baiting xenophobic bigots into associating Obama with terrorists?

It would seem Will, that you are associating the name \"Hussein\" with terrorist. I suspect theres a 100 or so million men called Hussein who would beg to diver. You really have to be careful about trying to put your prejudices on to other people.

woodchip wrote:....Why cannot he be proud of the name his parents gave him? The answer is simple. Since he is running for president he does not want to be seen as having anything to do with the middle east and Islam....

Oh I'm sorry! When you said this you probably meant to imply that "having anything to do with the middle east and Islam" would associate him with goat cheese and date farming...

Will Robinson wrote:So what is the basis in fact that supports race baiting xenophobic bigots into associating Obama with terrorists?

So does that mean Obama might lose the xenophobic bigot vote?

Will Robinson wrote:

woodchip wrote:....Why cannot he be proud of the name his parents gave him? The answer is simple. Since he is running for president he does not want to be seen as having anything to do with the middle east and Islam....

Oh I'm sorry! When you said this you probably meant to imply that "having anything to do with the middle east and Islam" would associate him with goat cheese and date farming...

I'm not implying anything. Barak is by not wanting his middle name used. Once someone says not to do "X" you have to wonder why.

Woodchip wrote:... So I think using his middle name of Hussein is apropos.

Apropos.

...But you're not alluding to anything.

You're so full o' sh**, Woody.