DescentBB

The Phoenix Indian School does sound like it was based on the Canadian model.

The Phoenix Indian School was an instrument of the federal government's Indian policy, which can best be described as Anglo-conformity. It was the mission of boarding schools to teach new and different values and customs, many of which, such as religion, conflicted with what Indian children's parents had taught them. English language, English institutions, and English-oriented cultural patterns were emphasized to transform pupils into Americans along Anglo-Saxon lines and to deny their history, language, and culture. Many students were forcibly separated from their parents, and the rapid personal transformation demanded of pupils was facilitated through a draconian and abrupt detachment from tribal cultural patterns.

touché Spidey.

Will the Christian debaters please accept that the missionary principles applied to the treatment of the North American Indian resulted in terrible abuses of children in the name of several different denominations and then STFU

Ford Prefect wrote:The Phoenix Indian School does sound like it was based on the Canadian model.

The Phoenix Indian School was an instrument of the federal government's Indian policy, which can best be described as Anglo-conformity. It was the mission of boarding schools to teach new and different values and customs, many of which, such as religion, conflicted with what Indian children's parents had taught them. English language, English institutions, and English-oriented cultural patterns were emphasized to transform pupils into Americans along Anglo-Saxon lines and to deny their history, language, and culture. Many students were forcibly separated from their parents, and the rapid personal transformation demanded of pupils was facilitated through a draconian and abrupt detachment from tribal cultural patterns.

touché Spidey.

Will the Christian debaters please accept that the missionary principles applied to the treatment of the North American Indian resulted in terrible abuses of children in the name of several different denominations and then STFU

Teaching religion doesn't hurt people. Whipping someone until they give up their faith does. Teaching isn't force, it is knowledge and people can do with it as they will. Punishment for people who do not convert though is wrong, as it first makes the conversion forced and not willed by the person, making it shallow. You can't force a true conversion.

The schools were just that, schools. They were supposed to take children who lived in sometimes remote areas and often very poor surroundings and give them a chance to get an education. Their conversion to Christianity and the destruction of their culture was an intended by product, eagerly overseen by the churches who ran the schools. This same principal has been applied to the native culture in many other areas of the world. In modern times the missionary work of Christian churches has been modified somewhat to make Christianity more of an overlay of native culture rather than a replacement but the old attitudes were at work in every continent up to the 1950s and even later. It is interesting that a religion who's principals were laid down 2000 years ago in supposedly infallible scripture has had to admit that the interpretation of that scripture to control the actions of it's followers has to vary to meet the morals of the day. If the actions of the various church missionary groups was considered the right interpretation of scripture 100 years ago why is it wrong today?

Bah!! Now you have me doing it.

I suppose you can't keep Christianity completely out of this discussion because of the church involvement in the schools. But don't forget that the residential school concept was not totally without value. The conditions on the reservations was often abysmal and perhaps there were even worse abuses in store for some of the children had they remained on them. Dysfunctional families, alcoholic parents, extreme poverty were not at all uncommon.

If you want to introduce a higher level of education to a group then take a member of the group, educate him/her, and send him/her back to teach the group from the perspective of one of their own.

If you want to educate a group from the perspective of a religious organization then by all means send in the church of your choice to convert the group into educated members of that organization.

A little separation of Church and State was definitely needed.

Aggressor Prime wrote:
Authority must be kept in the holy grasp of the Church in order for it to be kept correct, for there is much evil in the world.

First off, just who appointed the first Pope? Was it god? Jesus? Or a group of wine soaked "clergy" looking to consolidate their power over their feckless followers?

That authority is not that cheap

Yes I made a serious error in not making sure of this. THAT authority only belong to those who act according to God's will. I can see how you mistook my way of thinking there. Our disagreement now becomes, why not you too?

As far as forceful re-education of a person goes. That has 2 sides of the coin. In the case of a prisoner, and what should be the goal IMHO, its needed. I think more in a military fashion, than what we have now. Which is basically caging people like animals. Tear the whole man down but then rebuild.

Will the Christian debaters please accept that the missionary principles applied to the treatment of the North American Indian resulted in terrible abuses of children in the name of several different denominations

I have had NO problem at all accepting that. In fact was exactly why I had such a hard time ignoring some of AP's remarks. As far as I can tell, throughout time, ALL organized religions have done terrible things under the guise of being \"God's Chosen Ones\". When in reality they were a group of deviant, sadists.

What really can be my response to the start of this thread? It's obviously wrong to any normal person.

woodchip wrote:

Aggressor Prime wrote:
Authority must be kept in the holy grasp of the Church in order for it to be kept correct, for there is much evil in the world.

First off, just who appointed the first Pope? Was it god? Jesus? Or a group of wine soaked "clergy" looking to consolidate their power over their feckless followers?

Jesus made Simon into Peter, the first pope. He also gave the apostles, the first cardinals, the power to elect the next pope when Peter would die. So the apostles, with the authority of Jesus who is God, elected the second pope.

What really can be my response to the start of this thread? It's obviously wrong to any normal person.

That seems true but barely 75 years ago the schools were considered a great idea and the government of my country paid various churches to run them. What has changed in public morals in so short a time that it is \"obviously wrong to any normal person\".
It's a strange world.

Ford Prefect wrote:

What really can be my response to the start of this thread? It's obviously wrong to any normal person.

That seems true but barely 75 years ago the schools were considered a great idea and the government of my country paid various churches to run them. What has changed in public morals in so short a time that it is "obviously wrong to any normal person".
It's a strange world.

75 years ago even if your own son was raped by the local Catholic priest you wouldn't tell anyone and might not even confront the priest out of uncertainty of how you and your family would be thought of by the community.
The general population has evolved...quite a bit faster than the Catholic church has.
But then look at what the Vatican and it's keepers have to lose and you can see why they have a death grip on their tradition.

The more I see of 'Big Religion' the more certain I am that they secretly pray that there is no real god!

Will Robinson wrote:

Ford Prefect wrote:

What really can be my response to the start of this thread? It's obviously wrong to any normal person.

That seems true but barely 75 years ago the schools were considered a great idea and the government of my country paid various churches to run them. What has changed in public morals in so short a time that it is "obviously wrong to any normal person".
It's a strange world.

75 years ago even if your own son was raped by the local Catholic priest you wouldn't tell anyone and might not even confront the priest out of uncertainty of how you and your family would be thought of by the community.
The general population has evolved...quite a bit faster than the Catholic church has.
But then look at what the Vatican and it's keepers have to lose and you can see why they have a death grip on their tradition.

The more I see of 'Big Religion' the more certain I am that they secretly pray that there is no real god!

You really have no clue how meaningless this world would be without the Roman Catholic faith. Don't go making stupid comments due to your hate for the Church, because you are also insulting the 1 billion believers who follow the Catholic faith not to mention the institution that was the backbone of Europe that prevented the Muslims from wiping out civilization as we know it.

Aggressor Prime wrote:You really have no clue how meaningless this world would be without the Roman Catholic faith. Don't go making stupid comments due to your hate for the Church, because you are also insulting the 1 billion believers who follow the Catholic faith not to mention the institution that was the backbone of Europe that prevented the Muslims from wiping out civilization as we know it.

Aggressor Prime wrote:You really have no clue how meaningless this world would be without the Roman Catholic faith. Don't go making stupid comments due to your hate for the Church, because you are also insulting the 1 billion believers who follow the Catholic faith not to mention the institution that was the backbone of Europe that prevented the Muslims from wiping out civilization as we know it.

Lol with Ferno!
Jesus is fine with me but some of his fan club is starting to scare the ★■◆● out of me!

Will Robinson wrote:

Aggressor Prime wrote:You really have no clue how meaningless this world would be without the Roman Catholic faith. Don't go making stupid comments due to your hate for the Church, because you are also insulting the 1 billion believers who follow the Catholic faith not to mention the institution that was the backbone of Europe that prevented the Muslims from wiping out civilization as we know it.

Lol with Ferno!
Jesus is fine with me but some of his fan club is starting to scare the ***** out of me!

Please tell me one thing that either Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict XVI said that scares you. If men like these who bring only peace to the world scare you, then you scare me.

Aggressor Prime wrote:Please tell me one thing that either Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict XVI said that scares you. If men like these who bring only peace to the world scare you, then you scare me.

Did you really think I wasn't talking about you?!?

LOL sorry about that. I can only say it how I see it. How you respond is entirely up to you.

Will Robinson wrote:The more I see of 'Big Religion' the more certain I am that they secretly pray that there is no real god!

I like that.