DescentBB

Posted: **Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:34 pm**

Spidey wrote:Your right, I was taking licence.

STOP IT

Posted: **Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:49 pm**

Foil wrote:Geez, threads are going wildly off-topic nowadays.

I have a lot I'd like to say, and not much time, but allow me to respond to the 'logic' in this one:

Aggressor Prime wrote:...why God must be all things. I assume you believe God is the source of all things, seeing that you believe he created all things. But he is more than a creator. If God disappears, wouldn't that make everything else disappear, by your belief. Therefore, there is a stronger link than just creator. That link can only be described like a person standing in front of a mirror. God is like a man with a mirror, and we are like the image he creates. We are bound by God, like the image is bound by the man. So we can only be as good as God, no better. I believe you do not believe we can be better than God, a being of perfection. Moreso, we are dependent on God to allow us to exist, something I believe you also believe. If you want to see the universe as the breath of God, you can do so, but also see the breath of God as God, since if God disappeared, I believe you would also believe that that breath would disappear at the same time. And please don't get into the argument that God can't disappear. I'm merely making a point that only requires an bit of logic to understand.
Okay, you've made the point that the existence of everything is dependent on God, that it could not exist if God did not exist. (The 'person in the mirror' analogy fits, but only in the sense of one's existence depending on the other.)

The problem is that there's nothing in the above argument which finishes your 'logic' to conclude with your original premise: that all things, including man and the universe, are God.

Dependency (which you argued, and I agree with) does not imply same-ness (which you have yet to show).

So, as you mentioned a Biblical source, I'd like to see how you scripturally make the logical jump from "all things are dependent on God" to "all things are God".

I'm not saying we are God. We are reflections of God. We have free will, but our free will is a reflection of God's free will. In a sense, by making a reflection of free will, a new "being" is created. But this cannot be a new being because such a being would be independent of God. Beings are independent of other beings, well our idea of beings. An apple can continue to exist if the tree that carried it dies. We can trace our free will directly to God by seeing the nature of God's free will and the nature of our's. God's free will is perfect. Human free will, for the most part is imperfect. Although all of the good parts of human free will are good because they are in God's free will. Being one in the same, occupying neither space nor time, make them the same thing. Therefore, our free will in so much as it exists, is God's free will. We make choices, the naturue of free will, but our choices can only be made under the cover of the possibility defined by God. We can go less than God, but no more, because nothing can be better than perfection.

Posted: **Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:59 pm**

How can so much be said about religion and not once is the name of Jesus mentioned? If your a Christian then you realize he is the example of perfection. Do you want to know who God is and how he thinks? Read the things Jesus said. He is the exact representation of who God is. I mean even if its a farce and he was a lunatic ( He DID claim to be equal with GOD after all) find fault with anything he did. I read this thread from the beginning and I got a headache. It's much more simple than is being made out.

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:35 pm**

flip wrote:How can so much be said about religion and not once is the name of Jesus mentioned? If your a Christian then you realize he is the example of perfection.

Because Jesus was not God and neither was an example of perfection. Jesus, unlike "God", was a man of peace and was someone I would have followed and believed in. I can see "Jesus" in a lot of people today.

Do you want to know who God is and how he thinks? Read the things Jesus said. He is the exact representation of who God is. I mean even if its a farce and he was a lunatic ( He DID claim to be equal with GOD after all) find fault with anything he did. I read this thread from the beginning and I got a headache. It's much more simple than is being made out.

I read the old testament and that's about all the God I want to know, but you're right.... Jesus was a simple man and had simple messages. Much simpler than being stated here.

Bettina

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:02 pm**

flip wrote:How can so much be said about religion and not once is the name of Jesus mentioned? If your a Christian then you realize he is the example of perfection. Do you want to know who God is and how he thinks? Read the things Jesus said. He is the exact representation of who God is. I mean even if its a farce and he was a lunatic ( He DID claim to be equal with GOD after all) find fault with anything he did. I read this thread from the beginning and I got a headache. It's much more simple than is being made out.

In order to properly see the nature of Jesus, you need to see him with the eyes of a philosopher. You can't just accept what Jesus says and live on, you need to understand the root of his message. That is why the Catholic Church is so much into philosophy.

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:40 pm**

Bet51987 wrote:Because Jesus was not God and neither was an example of perfection. Jesus, unlike "God", was a man of peace and was someone I would have followed and believed in. I can see "Jesus" in a lot of people today.

Mmmnope, the bible specifically states Jesus was God.
Unless I've missing something and the Jesus you're talking about hasn't got anything to do with the Jesus of Nazareth.

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:54 pm**

I think the biggest danger today is the modern economist. The economist has ushered in an age where corporations are more interested in appeasing invisible shareholders than their own work force. Every company has to grow, they insist. They invent the forecasts and blame companies for not meeting them. They cheer over enormous mergers, presided over by a compromised FTC, and the hundreds or thousands of workers who lose their jobs as a result are irrelevant.

They even perpetuate the ongoing fuel crisis. Make no mistake, OPEC started the train. But it's the economists and their traders that keep the price high on the commodities market - the same fanatics whose \"creative\" energy rationing made Enron the darling of American corporate power.

It's all about the bottom line.

Yeah, you can take your Islamic extremists and cry about Al Queda all you want. The people like Lay and Skilling did far more damage to our country than Bin Laden could ever dream of. You just didn't see it happen.

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:43 pm**

TIGERassault wrote: Mmmnope, the bible specifically states Jesus was God.

Where does the Bible say that? Even Jesus said he was “the son of man”. *

Bet51987 wrote: Because Jesus was not God and neither was an example of perfection. Jesus, unlike "God", was a man of peace and was someone I would have followed and believed in. I can see "Jesus" in a lot of people today.

BTW, Bett, that’s one of the coolest thing I have ever heard you say.

* Oh yea, I forgot, others said that about him, but I believe “he” never did.

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:56 pm**

TIGERassault wrote:
Bet51987 wrote:Because Jesus was not God and neither was an example of perfection. Jesus, unlike "God", was a man of peace and was someone I would have followed and believed in. I can see "Jesus" in a lot of people today.
Mmmnope, the bible specifically states Jesus was God.
Unless I've missing something and the Jesus you're talking about hasn't got anything to do with the Jesus of Nazareth.

The bible says a lot of things Tiger, but it was written by man....

And, don't forget when Jesus said: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

I've always believed those words to be the sudden realization of emptiness that Jesus felt at the time of his death, and those words had a profound meaning for me.

Bee

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:54 pm**

The very reason Jesus was crucified was because of blasphemy. Claiming to be God.

\"The Jews then said to Jesus, 'You are not fifty yet, and you have seen Abraham?'
Jesus replied: \"I tell you most solemnly,
before Abraham ever was, I Am'.\"
John 8:57-58

That is the very same that God spoke through the burning bush to Moses.

Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, \"I AM WHO I AM\"; and He said, \"Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'\"

No doubt that Jesus claimed to be God. At least in the biblical record, which to this day has also proven to be a reliable historical record also.

The bible says a lot of things Tiger, but it was written by man

Agreed. Written by man and inspired by God. Otherwise you cannot explain the agreement that exists in those 66 books. I've said this before:

written over 1600 years
40 different authors
3 different languages
3 different continents
by all types of men (Kings to cup bearers)

and yet possesses such awesome agreement with itself. Almost as if only 1 person had written it

.

It also has a common theme from Genesis to revelations. The redemption of man.

This is God speaking to Satan in Genesis:

I will make you and the woman hostile toward each other. I will make your descendants and her descendant hostile toward each other. He will crush your head, and you will bruise his heel.

Notice that he speaks of the womans descendant(singular) to imply one person. The Messiah.

The Bible is a record of God fulfilling his promise to redeem man.

And, don't forget when Jesus said: \"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?\"

Yes. Jesus came, born of a virgin, and lived as a man, so he could die for man. You can trace Jesus' lineage all the way back to Abraham. The very reason you get those:
Abraham fathered Isaac, Isaac fathered Jacob, and Jacob fathered Judah and his brothers.

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:55 pm**

Bee wrote:And, don't forget when Jesus said: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

flip wrote:Yes. Jesus came, born of a virgin, and lived as a man, so he could die for man. You can trace Jesus' lineage all the way back to Abraham. The very reason you get those:
Abraham fathered Isaac, Isaac fathered Jacob, and Jacob fathered Judah and his brothers.

It still doesn't explain that statement I quoted and I've never been comfortable with any of the complicated explanations. Jesus never said "I am God" but instead used the words "I am what I am".

I still believe those words spoken on the cross were due to the rude awakening that no one was there, and that's the sadness of it all.

Bee

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:01 pm**

How do you explain all those people who said they saw him after he died? All liars?

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:12 pm**

This is a quote from this website.
http://www.probe.org/content/view/90/77/

Since someone else has already done the hard work I decided to pilfer it

# a) Turn to John 8:56-58. Jesus is talking to the unbelieving Jews. \"Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing My day; he saw it and was glad.\" \"You are not yet 50 years old,\" they said to Him, \"and you have seen Abraham?\" \"I tell you the truth,\" Jesus announced, \"before Abraham was, I AM!\" Jesus was the great I AM from before the beginning of time; He existed before Abraham ever was. He is claiming here to be the I AM of the Old Testament. Verse 59 says the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, but the Lord Jesus slipped away. The reason they wanted to stone Him was because stoning was the death penalty for blasphemy. He was claiming to be Yahweh--Jehovah--Almighty God--I AM. (Of course, it wasn't blasphemy when Christ claimed to be who He truly was!)

# b) John 8:24. \"I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM, you will indeed die in your sins.\" In your Bible, it may read \"if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be....\" The extra words are supplied by the editors; they're not in the original text. If you're familiar with Exodus 3 you don't need the extra words for it to make grammatical sense. The Lord Jesus is again claiming to be God.

# c) John 18:4. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Judas and some priests and soldiers are about to take Jesus prisoner. \"Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to Him, went out and asked them, 'Who is it that you want?' 'Jesus of Nazareth,' they replied. 'I AM,' Jesus said. When He said, 'I AM,' they drew back and fell to the ground.\" (Again, in your Bible the editors may have supplied \"I am [he]\" to make it grammatically correct. The Greek just says, \"I AM.\")

It is very obvious from scriptures that Jesus claimed to be God. Your point as to him saying \"why hast thou forsaken me?\", demonstrates that The Father did wholeheartedly punish him for our sins by forsaking him. If you read more, you will notice it also says he went to hell, and took the keys of hell and death from Satan, fulfilling what was wrote 1600 years before in Genesis.

I will make you and the woman hostile toward each other. I will make your descendants and her descendant hostile toward each other. He will crush your head, and you will bruise his heel.

He took back the authority Adam gave to Satan (crush your head) by being crucified( bruise his heal).

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:27 pm**

You guys really surprise me due to your lack of knowledge of what the bible really is. During the time of Jesus, there were multiple \"Jesus's\", multiple \"Messiahs\", and multiple \"bibles.\"

The Roman Catholic Church was the organization that picked the books of the bible. The Roman Catholic Church was the organization that said a certain Jesus was fully God and fully man and the Messiah, since some books denied either one or the other. Jesus just did the deeds necessary to give man a shot at salvation. The Roman Catholic Church categorized these deeds and developed the philosophy necessary to read Jesus' deeds correctly. Without the Roman Catholic Church, specifically St. Paul, no one would know Jesus, or at least the Jesus we know.

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 8:45 pm**

Actually flip, I believe he is claiming to be the “light” (or the “way”) to god, not god.

Also from John

\"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.\"

Jesus is believed to be referring to the birth of Isaac in John 8: 58, and the text on the mount of olives seems to be Jesus trying to explain that he is the “light” and each time he uses the phrase I AM, it should include “he”

“I AM he“, as in the light.

Pick and choose your quotes as you want, that’s what the Jews did…

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:13 pm**

Ok well answer me this then. Why was he crucified? Why was a man that was going about healing people of ALL manners of sickness and disease put to death? What was his crime?

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:17 pm**

Do you want my personal answer?

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:18 pm**

I don't see how this is missed so easily. You do realize that he is telling them that he existed before Abraham did, right?

Their response was \"your not even 50 years old yet, how could you have been before Abraham who has been dead for 100's of years\"

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:19 pm**

Absolutely. Answer as you feel.

EDIT: On second thought no. We are not discussing what we feel at this point, but what is defined in the text.

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:20 pm**

Bet51987 wrote:It still doesn't explain that statement I quoted and I've never been comfortable with any of the complicated explanations. Jesus never said "I am God" but instead used the words "I am what I am".

I still believe those words spoken on the cross were due to the rude awakening that no one was there, and that's the sadness of it all.

Bee

Jesus does say that he is God

John 10:22-39 wrote:The Unbelief of the Jews

Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter,
and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade.
The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me,
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
I and the Father are one."

Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,
but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]?
If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?
Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:20 pm**

Because he threatened the powers that be, because people were calling him the king of the Jews, and he wanted to share their god with everbody, not just the Jews.

But that’s JMHO…

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:23 pm**

flip wrote:I don't see how this is missed so easily. You do realize that he is telling them that he existed before Abraham did, right?

Their response was "your not even 50 years old yet, how could you have been before Abraham who has been dead for 100's of years"

No I believe he is stating the events that led up to his birth…as the savior.

************

Anyway, my final thought, I have to go to bed.

I don’t see how Jesus could have believed he was god, when he clearly believed he was the son. (The Messiah)

Jesus was a pretty smart guy, and I doubt he could have gotten the two confused. (now we on the other hand)

Posted: **Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:42 pm**

Spidey wrote:
flip wrote:I don't see how this is missed so easily. You do realize that he is telling them that he existed before Abraham did, right?

Their response was "your not even 50 years old yet, how could you have been before Abraham who has been dead for 100's of years"
No I believe he is stating the events that led up to his birth…as the savior.

************

Anyway, my final thought, I have to go to bed.

I don’t see how Jesus could have believed he was god, when he clearly believed he was the son. (The Messiah)

Jesus was a pretty smart guy, and I doubt he could have gotten the two confused. (now we on the other hand)

Spidey its the whole trinity thing. read John 10:30. he does claim to be God

Posted: **Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:38 am**

Oh for the love of...
Look, one of the fundamental parts of the Catholic religion is that Jesus was God. That's that. If you argue against it, then you've veered off into a Protestant religion.

Moreso, last time I checked, ordinary people normally have a little difficulty in performing miracles.

Bet51987 wrote:The bible says a lot of things Tiger, but it was written by man....

Written by men who knew Jesus well, yes.

Bet51987 wrote:And, don't forget when Jesus said: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

The Father is also God.

Posted: **Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:40 am**

Jesus did claim to be God, and it is obvious from the Bible that the Jews understood it that way. It was one of the stated reasons for his persecution. (John 5:18)

Spidey wrote:Because he threatened the powers that be, because people were calling him the king of the Jews, and he wanted to share their god with everbody, not just the Jews.

But that’s JMHO…

Matthew 15 wrote: 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed." 23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us." 24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, help me!" 26 But He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw [it] to the little dogs." 27 And she said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great [is] your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

The gospel of Jesus Christ was not brought to the gentiles until well after Jesus' crucifixion.

Flip wrote:If you read more, you will notice it also says he went to hell, and took the keys of hell and death from Satan, fulfilling what was wrote 1600 years before in Genesis.

John 19:30 wrote:So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

I don't know exactly what mischief is accomplished by the belief the it wasn't really finished when Jesus said it was finished, but the word of Jesus is good enough for me.

The Bible doesn't say anything about Jesus going and wrestling with the Devil in hell (in fact, the Bible would indicate that the Devil isn't even in hell yet). Furthermore the idea that the Devil ever had the keys of "hell" is ridiculous, because hell was created "for the Devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41) Why would he have the keys? When the Devil finally is in hell, he'll be suffering, not reigning.

Posted: **Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:17 pm**

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Acts 2:27, KJV)

You know, I'm looking at this over and over. This could mean 2 things and would take more studying to make SURE. On one hand, it says \"thou wilt not leave\", maybe implying that there is a period of time of being there but not being left. On the other, it could be saying in essence \"it will never happen\" I'm sure with a conglomeration of scriptures we could make this out

.

The Bible doesn't say anything about Jesus going and wrestling with the Devil in hell

Nor did I. I doubt seriously any effort at all <\"besides being crucified\"> was expended.

Furthermore the idea that the Devil ever had the keys of \"hell\" is ridiculous, because hell was created \"for the Devil and his angels.\" (Matthew 25:41) Why would he have the keys? When the Devil finally is in hell, he'll be suffering, not reigning.

Yes it was created for the Devil and his angels, but one of the consequences for mans fall was that he would join them.

\"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let him have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.\"

Adam was created and then gave dominion over all creation as God's representative. When he was deceived by Satan, he gave that authority over to the Devil. From that point on Satan is referred to as the \"God of this world\".

Another main reason for the death of Jesus. To reclaim that which was lost or stolen. The dominion of man and his relationship with his creator.

@Bett

You know, sometimes hard decisions have to made to restore things back as they were intended. To me, if Jesus is who he said he was, he not only shows a lot of love in the fact that he took my punishment for me, but as soon as Adam sinned he made a promise, and carried it out.

DescentBB

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