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Re:

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:07 pm
by Duper
TIGERassault wrote:
Sergeant Thorne wrote:I guess you must be accusing me of being some fool who is opposed to change for change's sake,
N- er, yes, actually. Unless you've got some good reason to think Scouts should remain anti-atheist.
Because that is part of it's founding belief system. The boyscouts was set up more to train integrity and honor more than Docterine Tiger.

The boyscouts can be whatever they want to be within the limits of the law. There are whole groups dedicated to further the "right" of pedophilia. so go figure. They don't get sued for NOT promoting God.

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:16 pm
by Sergeant Thorne
TIGERassault wrote:Simple. They're all social depravities.
Being against homosexuality is a depravity now, eh? Can't get much more backwards than that.
TIGERassault wrote:Unless you've got some good reason to think Scouts should remain anti-atheist.
I already gave one. They were founded on theistic principles, why should they want to include people who have no regard for them? I guarantee the atheists would just want to change things once they're in anyway.

It makes no sense for the Boy Scouts to include people who have no regard for their highest ideals! In this day and age I'm impressed that they can still see that, amidst so much confusion and public pressure, and I'm annoyed, but not surprised, that you can't.

Re:

Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:36 pm
by Dakatsu
Foil wrote:Dakatsu & Tiger: Remember, guys... the Boy Scouts is a private organization. Whatever you may think about it, they have (and should have) the right to operate under whatever rules they deem fit.
I agree they should be allowed to do it, but as far as I know, they get federal funding, so this discrimination is funded by our government. That is the only part I don't like.
Foil wrote:If you decided to create an "Atheist Scouts", you would absolutely have the right to determine membership based on religious belief (or non-belief, as it were). The last thing you would want is for the government to step in and tell you that you had to let Christians in, right?
Actually, I would want them to step in and tell me Atheist Scouts is the most stupid ass idea, and that Gay Scouts would be WAY cooler! :P

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:43 am
by Kilarin
Dakatsu wrote:I agree they should be allowed to do it, but as far as I know, they get federal funding, so this discrimination is funded by our government. That is the only part I don't like.
Yes, exactly. The "federal funding" for the boy scouts is a bit indirect though. From what I can tell, it mainly consists of the Boy Scouts using military bases for their jamboree and the military doing the setup/cleanup. Indirect, but still a LOT of money. And still OUR money.

Once you take the governments money, in any form, you are taking money from ALL of us, and that obligates you to serve in a manner untainted by discrimination or offense. Any organization that wishes to be free from this kind of entanglement should refuse the government dollars, no matter how tempting. The money ALWAYS comes with strings attached.

The "United Methodist Children's Home" was established in 1871 specifically to take in orphans from the civil war and give them a proper Methodist home and upbringing. But in 2002 they ran into a snag. Two things came up at once. First, a Jewish man applied for a job and was turned down since it was the Church's policy that they only hired Christians. And they fired a teacher when they discovered she was a practicing lesbian.

Now normally these two issues would not be a problem. Being a church organization, they are allowed to hire and fire according to that churches principles. Ah, but here is the catch. They were taking government money. 40% of their funds, and that amounts to over a million dollars a year, comes from tax dollars. And those tax dollars come from each and every one of us. How would YOU feel if you discovered your tax dollars were funding an institution that refused to hire blacks or hispanics?

The courts determined, and I think correctly, that any organization that takes money from the government is required to comply with government non-descrimination policies. They took money from all of us, so they have to hire all of us.

This forced the United Methodist Children's Home to make a choice. They could give up the money, or they could give up their unique Christian character. It was a million dollars. You can not serve both God and mammon. They chose mammon. Under the restrictions, not only will they have to hire indescriminantly, they agreed to stop requiring orphans to attend church, and to cease all religious instruction. And now, if a child in the home brings up issues about sexual orientation or gender identity, the United Methodist Childrens Home has agreed to refer them to "appropriate" supportive services, such as to Youth Pride. (An organization dedicated to service and support for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and questioning youth.)

The "Methodist" children's home is now a secular institution.

And they are NOT an isolated case, and this process of the government pulling strings is nothing new. Back in 1989 the courts ruled that the Salvation Army could NOT fire a Wiccan, who distributed Satanic materials while working for them. The Salvation Army lost its religious hiring exemption because it accepted government money directly related to job of the lady being fired.

PRIVATE organizations should be free to hire and fire and limit membership as they wish. But once you take government dollars, that right dissapears and you become responsible and accountable to all of us.

Re:

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:32 am
by Foil
Kilarin wrote:
Dakatsu wrote:I agree they should be allowed to do it, but as far as I know, they get federal funding, so this discrimination is funded by our government. That is the only part I don't like.
Yes, exactly. The "federal funding" for the boy scouts is a bit indirect though. From what I can tell, it mainly consists of the Boy Scouts using military bases for their jamboree and the military doing the setup/cleanup. Indirect, but still a LOT of money.
I didn't know that; changes my perspective.

Re:

Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:43 am
by Foil
TIGERassault wrote:
Foil wrote:Whatever you may think about it, they have (and should have) the right to operate under whatever rules they deem fit.
The "should have" is the part I'm debating against.
This view intrigues me.

Would I be correct in understanding that you believe government should define a set of moral standards to enforce (via things like hiring laws, legislation about speech) in the private sector?

If so, what happens if you don't agree with the moral standards they come up with? Or better yet, what if you agree with the standards, but then after the next election the standards change significantly (e.g. someone with a very strong religious perspective comes to power)?