I like porn.

[Tetrad]

Doing nothing? I would think bringing issues to light and seeing the other side's viewpoint is pretty important myself.

And before anybody says anything else, yes I do vote.

[Drakona]

Porn is evil. I cannot communicate the degree to which I despise it. I hate what it does to men, and I hate what it does to families sometimes. But first and foremost, I hate what it says about women and the way it makes them look. I swear, some of the stuff that's been posted just on this board alone has made me cry, and I know that's pretty tame.

You guys think it's harmless and fun and those who don't like it should look the other way. I guess I'm all for free speech of that sort. People should be able to objectify women on their own time if they want; people should be able to hate gays on their own time of they want; the KKK ought to be able to distribute their literature, etc. There's all sorts of speech out there that's offensive and hurtful that still ought to be protected and allowed to be spoken. But you gotta realize it isn't harmless. It hurts people. I'm one of the people it hurts.

I know not all women feel the same way I do. Maybe I'm oversensetive to it, because I spent my teenagerhood the gamer world, and I used to have to fight tooth and nail for any legitimate respect. But I do know there are other women in the world it hurts the same way it hurts me...

You guys are so funny, though. Yeah, the majority of the DBB loves porn and would be up in arms if it were outlawed. That doesn't mean most of the world feels the same way. You gotta realize that this board is a pretty skewed population--mostly youngish single guys. A lot of the real-world population consists of women, some of whom hate it for the same reasons as I do. And a lot of women are married, and see it as an active threat, even a potential rival.

I was going to make some lofty point about the metaphysical foundations of morality in a democracy, but this is a depressing topic and I don't feel like it. Instead, I'll just state that I don't think it legitimately ought to protected to preserve free speech, but that it shouldn't become illegal except by the will of the people (and I recognize that that'll probably never happen, and certainly isn't the case now, and so I will therefore protect it if I must even though I hate it.) But if the day ever came that porn was legitimately illegal, I would sure cheer.

Heh. How's that for an unpopular opinion around here?

-Drak

[TheCops]

drakona.
the whole point of the thread is protecting "un-popular" opinions. you stated yours elequently as usual.

and tetrad i wasn't trying to single you out at all. just make your point to human beings in person... it's way more effective than the internet.

i've seen (with my own eyes) many people flat out laugh at my friend... but she soldiers on and makes a serious difference.

that is freedom in practice.

[bash]

Wake up and smell the testosterone, Drakona, it's a man's world and if women don't like it they can be replaced!

[Darkside Heartless]

Meathead = 19 year old guy
I agree with Drakona completely, and I know at least a dozen other guys who think the same.
If I'm rejected for that, so be it.

[Lothar]

sad.

[Tetrad]

and tetrad i wasn't trying to single you out at all. just make your point to human beings in person... it's way more effective than the internet.

Heh, no hard feelings. It's more interesting as far as information gathering is concerned to do it over a venue such as this, especially as the vast majority of the people I hang out with feel the same way I do.

And Drakona, for what it's worth, this is probably the least skewed board I know of. It's probably even skewed in the other direction than most people expect, considering the outcome of this thread. Other places I go to are 98%+ left wing. Look at the outspoken people in this thread. Of all the people who've posted more than once, is anybody else on my side of the argument?

[bash]

Skew you, ya wanker!

[Beowulf]

Porn doesn't objectify women. Women in porn objectify themselves. This kinda carries over to my "post your ugly mug" thread where SA got all uppity about people talkin about his girlfriend. But here's the thing...I don't disrespect women or anyone else unless they give me a reason to. There are women who walk around dressed like whores and then expect people to treat them like ladies. It's not going to happen; they have to respect themselves and show to others that they ARE more than just sex objects if they expect to get treated like more than just sex objects. I'm not saying that a girl can't dress nicely, or even dress immodest, I'm just saying don't expect my first impression of that person to be setting my standards too high for them. That being said, women in porn disrespect themselves. Their dignity comes with a price, and they're willing to sell it. They obviously don't have a problem with it, or else they wouldn't be in porn. How can you expect a man to treat a pornstar as anything else than a sex object if she does not act like anything more than that? And if a man classifies all women by what he sees in a porno, then he's not worth your time because he's an idiot.

I'm sick of these self pitying women with their breasts and asses hanging out of the headbands they wear around their waists and call skirts wondering why men all treat them like sex objects.

Drakona, you're a smart and insightful person, you carry yourself with dignity and respect as seen by your posts here on the DBB. I feel like a broken record here, but do not think that I objectify women because I feel that many women bring it upon themselves.

[Lothar]

Beo, the women in porn objectify themselves, but porn objectifies most women for the sake of those few.

[Birdseye]

Women are not the only stars of porn

[Lothar]

No, but men are the main audience for porn. Romance novels objectify men; porn objectifies women. It's a generalization and an oversimplification, but it's accurate enough for the purposes of this discussion.

[Tetrad]

Sigh. Degrading is such a subjective word. What about all the amateur porn in which men and women are having sex and video taping it because they enjoy it? And let's not forget about the pro-sex feminists.

Instead of me trying to make arguments in a haphazard manner (and because I have another paper to write), how about reading this?

[Gooberman]

I have never participated in such a serious discussion on porn. Seriously. As it seems to be a very sensitive issue for some, I will try and keep this serious.

That being said, I can only imagine how hard in a gaming world it was to gain respect Drakona, but you did, and you should be proud of that: I know others are for you even if you are not.

However, I think the reason you got, and may still get, so much slack is more so due to "monitor security" then the fact that these guys watched a porno and now have no respect for women.

People label everyone. If a guy flips me off on the road, I think he is an ★■◆●. If I didn't think I had a chance against him and he would want to swap blows, I would think, â??he is an ★■◆●,â?

[bash]

Tetrad: Cop-out (seems to be a pattern for you).
Edit: In the interest of Troll Reduction, this area is now blank.

[Palzon]

i'll tell u what's really wrong with porn...

the problem with porn is bad porn cinematography! closeups! who needs that? also, it really angers me when the director can't take the time to frame the shot properly. 3/4's of the screen taken up with the bare couch or some guy's hairy ass? what's up with that?

don't cut away from the money-shot to show me some ugly guy's torutured "Oh-face". i don't need that at all! porn should be treated as an artform like any other.

on a more serious note, everything needs to be put in its proper context. liking porn doesn't make someone sociopathic. liking porn doesn't mean that you don't respect women. men's sexuality is largely visual. visual stimulation is fine in MY book as long as it's legal and not a pathological expression, i.e. it must be put into context with appropriate behavior outside the context of porn viewing.

i think it's possible to use porn to enjoy a fantasy that one would never want to live out if given the chance. therefore porn can be a release on many levels, no pun intended. and now if you'll excuse me, i have to go expand my collection.

[Tetrad]

Bash: shut up.

[Ferno]

uhh.. last i checked porn doesn't incite anti-semitism..

[bash]

Tetrad: Answer your critic or crawl back into your hole and stop posting provocative topics. Offering an article someone else wrote as a substitute for your own opinion doesn't mean jack. What's the matter? Nervous you can't back your sh|t up? What a surprise. Kudos to Drakona for undercutting your presumption that porn is victimless. Time to rollback your argument, let the flag fall from your shoulders and tell us why the rest of us should give a rat's azz about protecting your masturbation addiction.

[Tetrad]

Now see that wasn't so hard was it? Sitting there pecking at somebody off the side doesn't suite you very well. Why don't you start debating with actual content instead of sitting there trying to win by saying you have better debating skills.

I posted an argument that porn is not degrading from a woman who has interviewed many people in the porn industry in response to an assumption Beowulf made in his post. What do you have?

[bash]

Cop-out II. Drakona posted some very definitive challenges to your underlying assumption. Try addressing those specifically rather than handing it off. Let's hear your opinion. It is, afterall, your thread.

[Tetrad]

I never said porn doesn't hurt anybody. I didn't even say you had to like it. As far as the rest goes, Goob answered that already, and I'm not going to sit here and rehash what he said already.

[bash]

Cop-out III.

[roid]

It's not legal for someone to broadcast that stuff in plain view on the TV, or billboards, or any number of other public media. why should it be my problem that the porn merchants don't constrain themselves the same way in the internet medium?

because the internet is the world's underground.

i tell you what... first you can wipe out drug use and online file swapping, then you can start on whiping out porn.

call me in 500 billion years.

...when will the puritans learn that you can't win moral wars because people will: GASP opt to continue to enjoy their freedom.

this is just another war on drugs. you can't win it.
EVER. simply because it's trying to police victimless crimes*, and everyone knows it.


*i did a study into victimless crimes, and found that they are ALL based on heavily debated laws, and it is often questioned if they are even clasified as "CRIMES" at all.
suicide, prostitution, drug use. and now the suggestion of porn.

ps: bash you are a troll

[Tetrad]

Cop-out III.

Oh wow, you win. I'm sorry, I'll leave now.

[bash]

It's not too difficult when the opposition won't defend themselves.

[Tetrad]

I've yet to see any content out of you on this matter.

[bash]

Nice try, but this isn't my thread. Pick up your ball and run, Forrest, and then maybe you'll see me contribute. For the moment, I see my role as trying to keep you honest.

[Tetrad]

I don't have to answer to your red herrings.

[roid]

Women are not the only stars of porn

agreed. and why gay porn hasn't been mentioned in this thread before now is beyond me.

but... oh wait... surprise surprise the US administration hates gays as well.

you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the pattern here.

[bash]

Cop-out IV. Why so intimidated by Drakona? If I had posted her opinion you'd be all over me getting snarky.

[Tetrad]

I don't have to answer to your red herrings.

[bash]

Cop-out V.

[Tetrad]

Oh good job on the edits there.

I'm not intimitated. I just see no reason to argue with her. You can't argue with somebody who uses anecdotal evidence and says things like "it's evil". There's no point.

So I did what I could. I posted anecdotal evidence on the other side.

[bash]

So you are agreeing with her or what? If so, you'll have to admit your founding position that we should all be concerned about preserving the *freedom* of porn merchants to flood the Internet is ludicrous. Why protect something detrimental to society? See, you have to first establish that. If you are not agreeing with her, tell us how porn is healthy and victimless and let us challenge your argument and not someone else's. Can't always be the sniper, you know.

[roid]

yeah i noticed the edits too bash. you're going back and changing your posts long after they have been replied to.

we know why.

[bash]

Um, I added *Cop-out IV* as a placeholder and immediately went into edit mode. I had no way of knowing anyone had posted while I was adding to it. Nothing was changed. I was finishing my thought. But we digress...

Edit: OMG, I fleshed out the post above this one by adding a sentence. And we all know why. Evil clarity!

[roid]

no, you added Cop-out IV then waited until tetrad had replied, then added Cop-out V.

then went back and edited IV.

i see what you're doing liar.

[Lothar]

She said things people have posted here "made her sad" -- but never said the things that made her sad were directed at her. Goob's response is based on the bad ASSUMPTION that she was referring to comments directed at her, when the reality is that she was referring to the sorts of things guys on here say about women in general, the sorts of pictures guys on here post, etc. Yes, she has had people say things on Kali that were entirely inappropriate -- but people don't often say things like that to her on this board (partly because she's earned respect, and partly because she married an admin) so she wouldn't be referring to that as "sad". It's the way a lot of you guys refer to women that's sad. So what this means is Goob's post was irrelevant, and didn't really answer anything. What this means, Tetrad, is that bash is right to push you to answer -- what you've given so far has been a cop-out.

A lot of you say porn doesn't change the way you treat women. Maybe that's true -- but I seriously doubt it. A lot of you say you really do respect women. Again, maybe, but I doubt it. I've been reading what you say about women behind their backs for the past 6 years, and there's a lot less respect than there should be from a lot of people here. Goob made this point that "the person who gave you grief... would have if they'd never seen a porno." But I look at the people who constantly treat women with respect on this board, and the people who constantly treat women like objects on this board, and there's a definite correlation based on the amount of porn they admit to watching. Is porn the cause, or is porn a symptom? I think it's both, at least to some degree. It doesn't make sense to say "I look at women like objects when I'm jacking off, but I treat them with respect otherwise." How you treat them at one time effects how you treat them at other times. How much respect you show when there aren't women around (like, on this board) is a stronger indicator of whether you respect women than what you say to their face. And a lot of people on this board act like women are primarily here for your viewing pleasure.

Recall what she said: "you gotta realize it isn't harmless. It hurts people. I'm one of the people it hurts." Yet you conveniently ignore this point. And notice that "A lot of the real-world population consists of women, some of whom hate it for the same reasons as I do. And a lot of women are married, and see it as an active threat, even a potential rival." Saying that porn is not degrading to women because women "in the industry" don't find it degrading is silly -- that's like saying radical Islam isn't an insult to Islam because Osama Bin Laden doesn't think it is. Asking the insiders if they think it's "not degrading" doesn't really give you much feel for what it actually does to real women. And ignoring my wife's opinion because some "pro-sex" woman disagrees is just plain silly. Go talk to some real women about it; don't quote some article by a slut masquerading as a feminist and suppose you have perspective.

By the way, Tet, your point that the board demographic "isn't skewed" based on a political poll is nonsense. She said the board is skewed DEMOGRAPHICALLY (toward young, unmarried males) not POLITICALLY. It doesn't matter how many Republicans or Democrats there are; the point is that this is a board full of 18-25 year old single males, so on subjects like porn the views tend to be fairly one-sided. There aren't a lot of older, married women here to balance it out. There isn't a lot of perspective on this board on this issue.

You've been challenged by an alternate perspective. Like bash said, confront it -- don't duck and dodge and post an article and say it's been dealt with.

[Tetrad]

Agreeing with her on what? This?

Instead, I'll just state that I don't think it legitimately ought to protected to preserve free speech, but that it shouldn't become illegal except by the will of the people

Essentially, "I don't think porn should be free speech", right? Well that's a whole lot to go off of. It seems to me that it's the other way around at the moment, except in the case of obscenity (which, by the way, is very hard to get a conviction on). Given that, it's up to her to make the argument, since it's different from the norm.