** Careful Mr. President !**

[Spidey]

Well, I seriously doubt that allied air forces could control anything over Georgia, considering the proximity to Russia's border. The only way to control airspace in that area would be a full scale attack against all Russia's border defences, such as air bases & radar installations. And that would mean all out war. Short of that…dropping eggs on Russian tanks in Georgia would be just the kind of provocation that Russia could use to occupy the entire region.

[MD-1118]

I'm a little surprised that other western players don't recognize the U.S.'s inability to lead on this due to current circumstances and jump out in front of this issue to form the coalition that could have turned Russia back in no time.

I keep thinking about that too but sadly the U.N. and the E.U. are nothing but a joke and NATO is just another acronym for U.S.

Bee

NATO - Now America Takes Over. That's what we always end up doing or attempting anyway.

[Will Robinson]

NATO - Now America Takes Over. That's what we always end up doing or attempting anyway.

I considered the alternatives and realized that statement makes me proud to be an American...

[Ford Prefect]

I do wonder at the low level of agitation amongst the European powers over the whole Georgia mess.
One possibility is that in back room dealing they have determined that the government of Georgia is not worth backing. They certainly seem like a bunch of loose cannons, starting the shooting and then bombing the capital of South Ossetia with no regard for civilians. Those civilians were supposed to be their own citizens but clearly they think of them as the enemy.
As members of the Coalition Of The Willing they are getting special attention from Uncle Sam but maybe no one else really likes them.
Or maybe the Europeans are just inured to the invasion/annexation thing. Most of those Balkan countries were artificial creations of the first and second world wars anyway.

[MD-1118]

I don't see the benefits of helping a country like Georgia in case of WWIII. How are they gonna help us against Red China and The Bear? Seriously, it seems like more and more of our government leaders are committing political suicide. That's how it looks to me, anyway.

[Duper]

it won't lead to WW3. No one would take action that would propagate that.

There will be a lot of chest beating, finger pointing and tongues stuck out, and everyone will go home and cry to mom and drink cool aid, (not grape i hope) but no acts of war will be committed.

[Will Robinson]

I don't see the benefits of helping a country like Georgia in case of WWIII. How are they gonna help us against Red China and The Bear? Seriously, it seems like more and more of our government leaders are committing political suicide. That's how it looks to me, anyway.

Having friendly countries on the border of a potential enemy allow you to install anti-missile systems in those friendly countries will definitely give you a useful weapon against the enemy if he tries to launch any missiles.

Since the potential enemy already considers your friendly relationship with the new ally on his border an act of hostility you aren't really causing any more trouble for yourself by actually installing the systems but you are causing trouble for the enemy because he now has to overcome the tactical advantage you have to counter his missiles.

[Duper]

Yup. consider Cuba. Or if China suddenly became close buddies with Mexico. .. and troops began to be stationed there as a \"protective gesture\".

don't you think that we would be concerned?

Good point Will. Being in a country generally isolated from that and engrossed in the \"day to day\", it's easy to forget basic stuff like this.

[woodchip]

Will, what if Russia didn’t back off, are you ready for ww3?

This is exactly the philosophy the Euro's had when Hitler first starting taking over. He started with one small country, then promised he would stop there.

Spidey I would throw back to you the question, "How many countries could Russia take over before you would retaliate?"

[Spidey]

\"How many countries could Russia take over before you would retaliate?\"

One, but we aint there yet, are we?

[woodchip]

"How many countries could Russia take over before you would retaliate?"

One, but we aint there yet, are we?

Nope, but still wise to show the Russians that we are willing to go to the aid of Georgia if need be.

[Ford Prefect]

I watched a very interesting program called The Putin System the other night. Very scary stuff. The producers were on the side of the Chenchen resistance to Russia so you could expect that they would portray Putin in a bad light but it was still an education into some of the mind set of the man. He is very old soviet and expects to be in total control, if you cross him you can expect he will extract revenge. NATO crossed him on Kosovo and now South Ossetia and Abkhazia are part of Russia, split off just like Kosovo. This guy is cold blooded and ruthless to the extreme. If you expect him to blink on a contest of wills you are going to get a shock. Humiliate him and he will make you pay the price somewhere, somehow in a way that will hurt you the most. He holds Europe by the testicles as their supplier of gas and oil and he will squeeze them hard if they don't toe the line. Imagine the natural gas supply to Europe being shut off in the dead of winter, think of the economic and physical hardship that would cause and Putin is completely capable of doing it. He has the power and he has no compunction against using it.
Watch this exchange between Putin and a French reporter who asked a question he did not like
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid= ... O_7ZneCw&q
Edit: I fixed that link. Somehow it kept pointing to a drunken Sarkozy clip.

It is a pity that U.S. networks concentrate on Infotainment instead of showing stuff like The Putin System.
http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeyesunday/f ... 81107.html

[Nightshade]

Putin would make Al Capone look like a little girl if people knew what he has done and is capable of doing. He's no Stalin (at least not yet) but after being linked to political assassinations at home and one in the heart of a NATO country- Britain- you can't put anything past him.

[Spidey]

But of course, if you drop some bombs on Russian tanks like Will suggested, he will just run like a scared dog.

[Will Robinson]

But of course, if you drop some bombs on Russian tanks like Will suggested, he will just run like a scared dog.

As if Al Capone didn't run and hide from the police?!?

[MD-1118]

But of course, if you drop some bombs on Russian tanks like Will suggested, he will just run like a scared dog.

As if Al Capone didn't run and hide from the police?!?

The case being here that the so-called "police" number maybe seven million, tops, while "Al Capone" has a gang of 35.25 million, tops. I'm going by old numbers for the US, so if anyone knows the current maximum deployable amount of soldiers, I'd appreciate it. The Russian numbers, on the other hand, are circa last year, with an estimated 800,000+ becoming old enough to join every year. Those are bad numbers. Very, very bad numbers.

[Will Robinson]

The case being here that the so-called "police" number maybe seven million, tops, while "Al Capone" has a gang of 35.25 million, tops....

No, "the case", or the analogy as it were was dealing with my theory that Putin would most likely retreat if a coalition of western countries used their collective air power to drive out the Russian ground forces in Georgia.

If you want to test your assertion you would need to estimate how many Russian tanks and armored vehicles and foot soldiers equal a sortie of coalition fighter/bombers....
Any way you do the math you will find the planes killing a whole hell of a lot more Russians on the ground than Russians on the ground killing planes.

To keep his troops in Georgia and not let them get destroyed Putin would have to engage in an air war against the U.S. and British and French air forces and although I'm no expert I think with the right kind of recon the coalition air forces would be able to do devastating damage in a short period of time to the Russian ground pounders while avoiding the Russian ground based air defenses that would be, for the most part, too far away and behind the mountains thus unable to find a target. The Russians would have to fly into the Georgia sky to engage.

My guess is Putin would call his dogs back as quickly as he could to avoid a loss of face and manpower.
But it is all moot now anyway because he won the Georgia part of the campaign but he is losing the intimidation part of his plan because now not only Poland is signing up for some American missile shield, so is the Ukraine!

I'm beginning to think the U.S. is loving this!

[woodchip]

If Putin wanted to keep intercept missiles out of ex-satellite countries, he just went about it the wrong way.

[MD-1118]

Rice on Russia

Russia is once again indisputably the number two military power in the world, second only to the United States

Now, consider this: Russia has ICBMs, silo, mobile, and submarine based, that have many capabilities, and are designed to nullify any ABM system currently in deployment/existence, and even future models as well. Cases in point? The RT-2UTTH Topol M and the RS-24. These things are specifically designed to evade, outsmart, and ultimately get through the vaunted US missile shield. Putin knows all of this, too. I have a feeling there will come a time not too far into the future when he won't be all bark and no bite, as everyone expects currently.

[Will Robinson]

...I have a feeling there will come a time not too far into the future when he won't be all bark and no bite, as everyone expects currently.

You are reading far too much into what I've said. I never suggested Putin is all bark no bite, I suggested that he wouldn't bite over being shown the door in Georgia by a bunch of NATO bouncers. He knows his limitations.

As for the missile shield and the ability to get around it, of course it isn't perfect, far from it, but it is constantly improving and it is effective enough for the enemy to want it far from his launch pads therefore it is a good idea.

The biggest flaw in my wanting the west to fly in there and force the Russians out is the logistics of such an overwhelming air power to be able to show up so suddenly and in such strength as to avoid any resistance. It probably isn't possible in that location or we would have seen it happen.

[MD-1118]

I wasn't just referring to you, Will. I just get the feeling that most people in this country today are too cocky and overconfident in our military abilities. :: sigh :: It's just that... when people talk a lot, they end up saying things they don't mean, or bragging about an ability that they find, all too late, they don't actually possess. I've seen it happen before, and I'm sure you have as well, and many others. Whatever happened to us having a fixed set of standards and living by those strictly, instead of pussyfooting around and pandering to other's whims? If you believe something, you should act on your beliefs and not allow anything else to hinder your progress.

Maybe I'm too realistic, or too stubborn, or too... I don't know, but not many people make much sense these days... especially those in governing positions.

[Will Robinson]

I wasn't just referring to you, Will. I just get the feeling that most people in this country today are too cocky and overconfident in our military abilities. :: sigh :: It's just that... when people talk a lot, they end up saying things they don't mean, or bragging about an ability that they find, all too late, they don't actually possess. I've seen it happen before, and I'm sure you have as well, and many others. Whatever happened to us having a fixed set of standards and living by those strictly, instead of pussyfooting around and pandering to other's whims? If you believe something, you should act on your beliefs and not allow anything else to hinder your progress.

Maybe I'm too realistic, or too stubborn, or too... I don't know, but not many people make much sense these days... especially those in governing positions.

That's the sad truth of it all, too many people in power will sacrifice principled standards for short term political survival. The art of lying your way to re-election is refined while any attempt to lead people to understand the hard choices is becoming a liability. You can't get elected unless you are willing to put Party over principle.

[Ford Prefect]

The biggest flaw in my wanting the west to fly in there and force the Russians out is the logistics of such an overwhelming air power to be able to show up so suddenly and in such strength as to avoid any resistance. It probably isn't possible in that location or we would have seen it happen.

Actually Will I think the biggest flaw in your thinking is that you are not expecting Putin to retaliate. Humiliate Russia and Putin will make you pay one way or another. Europe cannot survive without natural gas and oil from Russia, Putin knows this and would use it.

[Will Robinson]

The biggest flaw in my wanting the west to fly in there and force the Russians out is the logistics of such an overwhelming air power to be able to show up so suddenly and in such strength as to avoid any resistance. It probably isn't possible in that location or we would have seen it happen.

Actually Will I think the biggest flaw in your thinking is that you are not expecting Putin to retaliate. Humiliate Russia and Putin will make you pay one way or another. Europe cannot survive without natural gas and oil from Russia, Putin knows this and would use it.

You are suggesting Putin can send in the tanks and take over other countries and if anyone tries to stop him he will cut off the oil and gas to Europe so the world needs to just get out of his way!
That is a position the rest of the world can not afford to take!!

So I'm not buying it.

His retaliation wouldn't come without repercussions. Remember were talking about him retaliating against NATO and Europe as a whole not just the U.S. for some unilateral move. How much could Europe and NATO countries hurt him economically if he wanted to start down that road compared to how little he loses by leaving Georgia after already stomping them? He would have to be a lot dumber than he is to trade of all the good will and good business Russia has built in the last 15 years just out of macho pride.
Putin is showing his old school roots...I'm expecting him to take his shoe off and pound on the podium threatening shouting "We will bury you!" any moment.

Secratary Rice has already answered him:

"Rice dismissed blustery comments from Russian leaders who say Warsaw's hosting of 10 U.S. interceptor missiles just 115 miles from Russia's westernmost frontier opens the country up to attack.

Such comments "border on the bizarre frankly," Rice said, speaking to reporters traveling with her in Warsaw.

"When you threaten Poland, you perhaps forget that it is not 1988," Rice said. "It's 2008 and the United States has a ... firm treaty guarantee to defend Poland's territory as if it was the territory of the United States. So it's probably not wise to throw these threats around."

She knows the Russians better than just about anyone else in government today and has called the bluff without hesitation.

[Ford Prefect]

Will I'm not saying that he will retaliate for being forced to withdraw troops from parts of Georgia in negotiations. I'm sure that those positions and eventualities were all worked out when the retaliation began. I'm talking about your scenario of NATO attacking Russian forces in Georgia from the air now and beating them back to the Russian border. Putin would retaliate against NATO countries and he would likely do so with oil and natural gas supplies since that is the card he holds that trumps all others.
If the U.S. lost middle east oil it would only be a 25% drop in supply. Given that kind of incentive substitutes would be brought on line relatively quickly. Europe does not have that option, if they loose Russia natural gas they are in deep deep doo-doo and both parties know it. There are not huge resources sitting around in Europe just waiting to be tapped.

If you think I'm impressed with the international political judgement of any member of the Bush administration you're wrong. Ms Rice included.

[Nightshade]

From Stratfor:

Russia began the week with a blunt message to the West: You may need us, but we don’t need you.

First, Russian President Dmitri Medvedev told the Russian press that NATO isn’t sincere in its desire to cooperate with Russia, and therefore Russia is prepared to completely break ties with the Western military alliance. According to Medvedev, even if NATO chooses to cut ties with Russia, “nothing terrible will happen” to Moscow.

Second, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin announced that World Trade Organization membership no longer interests Moscow. He added that Russia would soon be pulling out of several WTO-related agreements, thereby paving the way for Russia to formally withdraw its membership bid after more than a decade of negotiations.

Third, the Russian Duma and Federal Council unanimously approved a nonbinding resolution calling for the recognition of the Georgian breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Though this is largely a symbolic gesture for now, the Russians are making clear that they can turn the Kosovo precedent on the West in a snap.

In yet another blow to the West, Azerbaijan shipped approximately 200,000 barrels of crude to Iran on Monday. This is no ordinary economic transaction; Azerbaijan is the origin of the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline that circumvents Russia and transports Caspian oil to the West. A recent pipeline explosion combined with Russian military action in Georgia effectively have knocked the pipeline offline, leaving Baku with no choice but to look south and sell to Iran to maintain some level of oil income. This energy deal runs completely counter to U.S. strategy to keep Iran in a financial stranglehold. Through both direct and indirect means, Russia has simultaneously thrown a monkey wrench into the West’s plans to evade Russian energy bullying tactics while undermining Washington’s pressure policies against Iran.

The Russians are getting increasingly bolder in their actions against the West, taking full advantage of the fact that NATO can do little to seriously undermine Russia’s moves in the Caucasus. But Russia is not invincible — especially when it comes to Russian defenses against the West in the Black Sea.

The Black Sea is absolutely critical to Russian defense. Though NATO does not currently have the capability to project power through land forces against Russia, it does have the naval assets to give the Russians pause. Already, nine Western warships (including U.S., Polish, Spanish, Turkish, and token Bulgarian and Romanian vessels) have made their way into the Black Sea in the name of humanitarian aid for Georgia. Russia is accusing the West of building up a NATO strike group in this body of water with which to threaten Russia’s hold on the Caucasus, and perhaps beyond.

The Russians simply cannot allow an increased NATO presence in this particular body of water to remain unanswered. The Black Sea is an important buffer for what is a direct line to the Russian underbelly, the Ukrainian plains and the land bridge that extends between the Black and Caspian Seas. Russia is well-aware of its weaknesses when it comes to defending this crucial frontier. The Black Sea, and the Aegean beyond it, essentially comprises a NATO lake. Controlled by Turkey through the Dardanelles, the Turkish and U.S. naval presence combined could easily overwhelm the Russian Black Sea Fleet. The last thing Moscow wants is a U.S. naval strike force in the Black Sea threatening Moscow’s control of the Caucasus, crucial for its logistical and supply links to Russian troops in Georgia.

And so, the Russian response is already beginning to take effect. The Black Sea Navy flagship “Moskva” sailed from Sevastopol today, and the Russians are likely to deploy more of their current — albeit limited — naval assets out of the Crimean Peninsula. Such moves are only likely to give NATO forces more cause to beef up their naval presence in the Black Sea, further contributing to the Kremlin’s sense of insecurity.

At that point, the next logical step for the Russians is to start spending some of their three quarters of a trillion dollars in reserves on covert operations that would force the United States to split its attention. It was not too long ago that the Russian intelligence powerhouse excelled in starting up fires in Latin America, Africa, Europe and the Middle East to keep the West preoccupied. In the Cold War days, the Russian FSB and KGB were neck-deep in backing groups like the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, the Red Brigades in Italy and the Palestine Liberation Organization across the Middle East. Names and ideologies have since shifted, but it is not beyond the Russian FSB to spread its tentacles once again into certain areas of the world where it can poke and prod the West.

This type of tit-for-tat escalation defined the Cold War. Now that the Black Sea has come into play, we are now just a few short steps from having this fracas in the Caucasus fully revive those Cold War tensions. Russia may have been looking for a relatively risk-free option to confront the United States with the war in Georgia. But now that we are seeing hints of a NATO naval build-up in the Black Sea, the Russians may be getting more than they asked for.

[Ferno]

Well, since the whole AQ/terrorist thing wasn't working out as they hoped, they decided to start pimping Russia as the enemy now.

Bring on the new cold war!

LOL

[Nightshade]

Russia cruiser to test weapons in crowded Black Sea
Reuters | Tuesday, 26 August 2008

Russia's flagship cruiser has re-entered the Black Sea for weapons tests hours after the Russian military complained about the presence of US and other Nato naval ships near the Georgian coast.

The 'Moskva' had led a battle group of Russian naval vessels stationed off the coastline of Georgia's breakaway region of Abkhazia during Russia's recent conflict with Georgia and sank smaller Georgian craft.

The assistant to the Russian Navy's commander-in-chief told Russian news agencies the cruiser had put to sea again two days after returning to its base at the Ukrainian port of Sevastopol.

\"'Moskva' has today departed toward the Black Sea Fleet's naval training range to check its radio-controlled weapons and onboard communications systems,\" Captain Igor Dygalo was quoted as saying by Interfax.

The Russian navy's press office was unable to confirm his comments when contacted by Reuters.

The presence of so many ships from Nato countries earlier drew the ire of a Russian military spokesman during a daily media briefing on the conflict.

\"The fact that there are nine Western warships in the Black Sea cannot but be a cause for concern. They include two US warships, one each from Spain and Poland, and four from Turkey,\" Anatoly Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of the Russian military's General Staff said.

On Sunday, the US guided missile destroyer USS McFaul arrived with aid including camp beds, bedding, tents and mobile kitchen units, the US Defence Department spokesman Bryan. Whitman said.

Separately, the US Coast Guard cutter Dallas has been dispatched with aid, while a third vessel, the Navy command ship USS Mount Whitney, is being loaded in Italy with humanitarian supplies for Georgia, he said.

The Nato ships in the Black Sea are carrying more than 100 'Tomahawk' cruise missiles, with more than 50 onboard the USS McFaul alone that could hit ground targets, reported RIA news agency, quoting unnamed sources in Russian military intelligence.

[Ford Prefect]

The cold war revived, the House Of War gets a new lease on life and up, up, up go the defence budgets. Stupid world, stupid world leaders.

[Spidey]

Heh, again I’m glad to be old. (it doesn’t happen very often)

[MD-1118]

The cold war revived, the House Of War gets a new lease on life and up, up, up go the defence budgets. Stupid world, stupid world leaders.

Saw it coming a mile away. One of these days one of those "stupid world leaders" is going to slip up, though.

[Nightshade]

Military help for Georgia is a 'declaration of war', says Moscow in extraordinary warning to the West

Last updated at 16:47pm on 27.08.08

Moscow has issued an extraordinary warning to the West that military assistance to Georgia for use against South Ossetia or Abkhazia would be viewed as a \"declaration of war\" by Russia.
The extreme rhetoric from the Kremlin's envoy to NATO came as President Dmitry Medvedev stressed he will make a military response to US missile defence installations in eastern Europe, sending new shudders across countries whose people were once blighted by the Iron Curtain.
And Moscow also emphasised it was closely monitoring what it claims is a build-up of NATO firepower in the Black Sea.
The incendiary warning on Western military involvement in Georgia - where NATO nations have long played a role in training and equipping the small state - came in an interview with Dmitry Rogozin, a former nationalist politician who is now ambassador to the North Atlantic Alliance.
\"If NATO suddenly takes military actions against Abkhazia and South Ossetia, acting solely in support of Tbilisi, this will mean a declaration of war on Russia,\" he stated.
Yesterday likened the current world crisis to the fevered atmosphere before the start of the First World War.
Rogozin said he did not believe the crisis would descend to war between the West and Russia.
But his use of such intemperate language will be seen as dowsing a fire with petrol.
The U.S. Coast Guard cutter Dallas at Georgia's Black Sea port of Batumi today, carrying what the U.S. says is humanitarian aid
Top military figure Colonel General Leonid Ivashov, president of the Academy of Geopolitical Studies in Moscow, alleged that the US and NATO had been arming Georgia as a dress rehearsal for a future military operation in Iran.
\"We are close to a serious conflict - U.S. and NATO preparations on a strategic scale are ongoing. In the operation the West conducted on Georgian soil against Russia - South Ossetians were the victims or hostages of it - we can see a rehearsal for an attack on Iran.\"
He claimed Washington was fine tuning a new type of warfare and that the threat of an attack on Iran was growing by the day bringing \"chaos and instability\" in its wake.
With the real architect of the worsening Georgian conflict - prime minister Vladimir Putin - remaining in the background, Medvedev followed up on Rogozin's broadside with a threat to use the Russian military machine to respond to the deployment of the American anti-missile defence system in Poland and the Czech republic.
Poland agreed this month to place ten interceptor missiles on its territory, and Moscow has already hinted it would become a nuclear target for Russia in the event of conflict.
A South Ossetian separatist fighter prepares to fire his weapon as another raises the South Ossetian and Russian flags, in Tskhinvali, the capital of Georgia's separatist-controlled territory of South Ossetia yesterday
\"These missiles are close to our borders and constitute a threat to us,\" Medvedev told Al-Jazeera television. \"This will create additional tension and we will have to respond to it in some way, naturally using military means.\"
The Russian president said that offering NATO membership to Georgia and Ukraine, two former Soviet republics, would only aggravate the situation.
Moscow has consistently expressed its opposition to the U.S. missile shield, saying it threatens its national security.
The U.S. claims the shield is designed to thwart missile attacks by what it calls \"rogue states,\" including Iran.
Meanwhile, Russia - seen by the West as flouting international law - today demanded NATO abide by an obscure agreement signed before the Second World War limiting its warships in the Black Sea.
Russian ambassador to NATO Dmitry Rogozin
\"In light of the build-up of NATO naval forces in the Black Sea, our fleet has also taken on the task of monitoring their activities,\" said hawkish deputy head of Russia's general staff, Anatoly Nogovitsyn.
The Montreux Convention, as it is called, sets a weight restriction of 45,000 tonnes on the number of warships that countries outside the Black Sea region can deploy in the basin.
\"Can NATO indefinitely build up its forces and means there? It turns out it cannot,\" said Nogovitsyn.
NATO has said it is undertaking pre-arranged exercises in the Black Sea involving US, German, Spanish and Polish ships. Two other US warships sailed to Georgian waters with humanitarian aid.
Georgia is poised to sever diplomatic relations with Russia, or reduce them to a bare minimum.
\"We will drastically cut our diplomatic ties with Russia,\" said a top official.
President Mikhail Saakashvili said he was frightened to leave Georgia to attend the EU summit on the crisis.
\"If I leave Georgia, the Russians will close our airspace and prevent me from returning home,\" he said.
Russia sought Chinese backing for its action - but the Communist regime in Beijing appeared reluctant to offer support, instead issuing a statement saying it was \"concerned\" about recent developments.
NATO called for Russia to reverse its decision on recognition for the two enclaves, both Georgian under international law.
But the new 'president' of South Ossetia, Eduard Kokoyty, called for Russian military bases on his territory.
French foreign minister Bernard Kouchner warned today that an marauding Russian bear could trample over other ex-Soviet states.
\"That is very dangerous,\" he said, pointing at Ukraine and Moldova.

[MD-1118]

NATO - The new USSR for ex-/non-Soviets.

Seriously, what is everyone thinking? @_@ I will be the first one to say \"I told you so\" if this goes all the way. Man, if only we had some kind of S-bomb that would kill all the stupid people in the world.

[Spidey]

Yea, but who would be left?

[Cuda68]

Maybe its time to go into the bunker building business?

Anyone want a nuke proof bunker in there back yard?

[Ford Prefect]

Nice use of inflammatory language in that report. The title:

Military help for Georgia is a 'declaration of war', says Moscow in extraordinary warning to the West

refers to \"military help for Georgia\" which makes one think of providing weapons and training to Georgian forces. While what Dmitry Rogozin actually said was:

\"If NATO suddenly takes military actions against Abkhazia and South Ossetia, acting solely in support of Tbilisi, this will mean a declaration of war on Russia,\" he stated.

Refering to a military attack by NATO forces. Something quite different.

[Will Robinson]

....While what Dmitry Rogozin actually said was:

"If NATO suddenly takes military actions against Abkhazia and South Ossetia, acting solely in support of Tbilisi, this will mean a declaration of war on Russia," he stated.

Refering to a military attack by NATO forces. Something quite different.

That depends, if Rogozin considers NATO providing weapons to the Georgians as "acting solely in support of Tbilisi", which is a logical interpretation of such a delivery, then the headline would be accurate according to Rogozin's own declaration.

[Ford Prefect]

Perhaps, but arming and training are not normally considered \"military actions\". That term is a euphemism for the use of force. Remember that this guy is a diplomat and knows the difference in significance between an \"aide memoir\" and a \"stern note\".

[Will Robinson]

Perhaps, but arming and training are not normally considered "military actions". That term is a euphemism for the use of force. Remember that this guy is a diplomat and knows the difference in significance between an "aide memoir" and a "stern note".

Yea and diplomats are well schooled in how to work the public relations machine in the host country. In this case maybe he's fabricating some rationalization in a preemptive fashion for action their country is about to undertake.

In other words Putin's about to take the invasion to a new level (already has actually) so the diplomats are spinning up some rationale for it.

If it was only about Abkhazia and South Ossetia they wouldn't be blowing up air fields deep in Georgia hundreds of miles beyond those places....sinking Georgian ships even farther from there....blowing up all sorts of strategic installations etc. etc.

I think Putin saw the world blink when he rushed in so now he's decided to keep Georgia's neck under his boot indefinitely. He knows Obama hasn't got a clue and Bush is too scared to take on any more grief, Europe as a whole is nothing but a battered wife to what they perceive as the same old U.S.S.R. so Putin wins, game over.

[MD-1118]

I think Putin saw the world blink when he rushed in so now he's decided to keep Georgia's neck under his boot indefinitely. He knows Obama hasn't got a clue and Bush is too scared to take on any more grief, europe as a whole is nothing but a battered wife to what they perceive as the same old U.S.S.R. so Putin wins, game over.

In a nutshell... and WHY are there so few people who seem to care? If something isn't done, it WILL be game over, Russia wins, the world becomes their playground blah blah all that. I have never seen so much indifference, ignorance and blatant stupidity in my entire life.

I'm just about to the point where I'll say that if something drastically bad happens because no one would do anything about this situation, then they deserve whatever the consequences are. Seriously. If the people of the world can't see the light when it's glaring blindingly about two inches from their corneas, then I have no pity or compassion for them, only contempt. You get what you deserve, and I'd say that the world is in the express lane on this one. Meh, good riddance.