DescentBB

Will Robinson wrote:Well done!

I love the smell of hypocrisy ignored in the morning....smells like, DNC kool-aid.

Iiiif so...

...what do the Dems think a Christian is? I'd be worried if he didn't hold those views yet professed to be a believer.

Then again in religious terms the Democrats and other leftists do tend to be very broad. You have Christians of course, but you also have agnostics and atheists; the latter two groups don't always have a strong understanding of what Christianity entails.

Ah well.

Lothar wrote:Another scary religious person, praying and hearing God's voice:

I'll admit that I don't like Obama's religious overtones but since I have to make a choice between the two candidates I have to choose the team that is least likely to go to war with Russia and use God as an excuse. I just don't like the possibility of a President McPalin.

Bee

I just stuck my head in, but how do equate a war as being God's plan with someone asking for God to guide them? How is that hipocrasy? It is as if it was \"God wants me to kill that guy across the street\", and another person said \"I try to follow God's image, and hope I'm following it\".

Dakatsu wrote:how do equate a war as being God's plan with someone asking for God to guide them?

By recognizing Sarah Palin's oft-misquoted "Iraq is God's plan" was not a DECLARATION, but a PRAYER -- it was prefaced by and followed by the repeated injunction to "pray for" or "pray that", which people seem to keep forgetting about.

In both cases, the candidates were praying (or, rather, describing a prayer) for God's will to be done, and for God to show them the right thing to do. The content of one prayer is more specific than the other (focused on the war), but they're very similar in character.

@ Dakatsu -

context, context, context.
Try this video clip


and then this.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:George W. Bush is no prophet

now had you actually paid attention, you'd see that I already said that.

"God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam [Hussein], which I did

If we ever get anyone running for office who hears voices and does what they say, or claims to govern by "God"'s direct decree, then we should be justifiably leery

Hindsight?

Bet51987 wrote:I'll admit that I don't like Obama's religious overtones but since I have to make a choice between the two candidates I have to choose the team that is least likely to go to war with Russia and use God as an excuse. I just don't like the possibility of a President McPalin.

Bee

It would be impossible for an atheist to be elected President in this day and age anyway, I'm sure you recognise that.

Since most of you have never been in the military, let alone combat, let me simply say there are no atheist in a foxhole.

woodchip wrote:Since most of you have never been in the military, let alone combat, let me simply say there are no atheist in a foxhole.

I have been in both, and I can tell you I was not asking God to get me out of it. I was asking the SEALS to get me out, but not God. Stop saying that ridiculous statement.....

I feel like a cocky 13-year-old is trying to pull me into a ridiculous, juvenile argument in hopes that he can still be the victor, even though I've clearly won the point.

Do you have a source for that first quote, Ferno?

woodchip wrote:Since most of you have never been in the military, let alone combat, let me simply say there are no atheist in a foxhole.

Oh shut the hell up you ignorant prick. Besides the fact I am too young to join the military (I will admit that I don't have the guts or courage to do it, alright), my non believing grandfather fought in World War II. He was an American Marine who fought on Iwo Jima. He was climbing Mount Suribachi, when he got blown off of the mountain and was severely injured. He also had his thumb nearly sliced off by a berserking Japanese soldier, and retired from the Marine Corps as a Drill Sergeant. He earned among many other medals, the purple heart. So how about you ★■◆●ing think before you assume stupid ★■◆●? Your side bitches about Honoring the Troops, then you discredit non believers who served their country? ★■◆●ing shameful.

I'm sorry, but that crap infuriates me.

Now I will concede that what I said was not in the exact context. But that only makes it on the same level as Obama's quote. She hopes we are doing what God wishes in Iraq, and Obama is wishing that he is doing what God wants of him. Both of them said that they didn't know if they were doing God's work, just that they hoped they were.

Dakatsu wrote:...She hopes we are doing what God wishes in Iraq, and Obama is wishing that he is doing what God wants of him. Both of them said that they didn't know if they were doing God's work, just that they hoped they were.

Sounds fair and logical to me. Now get Hollywood and the rest of pop culture to ridicule both sides for their religious beliefs equally...get the media to investigate the churches of both sides equally...and we'll be in good shape!

Sirius wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:I'll admit that I don't like Obama's religious overtones but since I have to make a choice between the two candidates I have to choose the team that is least likely to go to war with Russia and use God as an excuse. I just don't like the possibility of a President McPalin.

Bee

It would be impossible for an atheist to be elected President in this day and age anyway, I'm sure you recognise that.

Sadly, I do. It's a shame that people in this country still hold on to the misconception that morals are tied to a God so the candidate that's more God like should win. However, I still have to vote for the team that will have less of a trigger finger.

Hostile wrote:

woodchip wrote:Since most of you have never been in the military, let alone combat, let me simply say there are no atheist in a foxhole.

I have been in both, and I can tell you I was not asking God to get me out of it. I was asking the SEALS to get me out, but not God. Stop saying that ridiculous statement.....

X2


Bee

Bett…

Morals may not be tied to a God, but I certainly wouldn’t want a man in the white house that puts the lives of animals in the same regard as humans, like a certain athiest I know.

It was a great line, but I'm not sure its something you can X2 bet

I know a great many unbelievers that are very moral people. They don't cuss, cheat on their wives or beat their children. There has to be more to it than just having good morals.

Hostile: lay in that same foxhole with your guts hanging out with moments left to live. None of us really know what we would do in that situation. I think that is more in line with what woodchip was saying.

Betsomenumber wrote:

Sirius (sorry, Dak, thanks for the correction) wrote:It would be impossible for an atheist to be elected President in this day and age anyway, I'm sure you recognise that.

Sadly, I do. It's a shame that people in this country still hold on to the misconception that morals are tied to a God so the candidate that's more God like should win. However, I still have to vote for the team that will have less of a trigger finger.

That's an assumption on your part, Bettina, because of your atheistic beliefs. I would argue that morals are tied to God, but not to "religion". A claim to follow God does not make a person like God, nor does not following God automatically make a person unlike him. Show me someone who doesn't believe in God, who holds to solid morals all around, and I'll show you someone who isn't far from the God of the Bible (I know of no examples, especially in the political arena... did you have someone in particular in mind?). The Bible is the standard for absolute morality, despite deluded attempts to separate the two. Through it God reveals his character.

"We can be good without believing in God!" Congratulations, but without a connection to the source of morality, morality crumbles or is undermined. "Moral decline": it is the natural course of events, apart from the source of morality. It can be resisted (to whatever degree of success), but it is the inescapable norm, apart from the salvation that is in Jesus Christ (I bet you didn't know that. 2 Peter 1:4).

Frankly the only reason not to think so is the assumption to the contrary.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:Do you have a source for that first quote, Ferno?

Google.

BTW, I really like the '13 year old' part. keep thinking that.

Not my quote Thorne, it was Sirius. Thought I'd correct you on that

Spidey wrote:Bett…

Morals may not be tied to a God, but I certainly wouldn’t want a man in the white house that puts the lives of animals in the same regard as humans, like a certain athiest I know.

I don't know who you mean but humanists aren't weak.

Gooberman wrote:It was a great line, but I'm not sure its something you can X2 bet

I take the atheists in foxholes to have just one meaning. That at the final hour when all hope is gone all atheists will pray to God. Maybe some atheists with real doubts will, but not all. An example was my favorite scientist Carl Sagan. His wife wrote...

"Contrary to the fantasies of the fundamentalists, there was no deathbed conversion, no last minute refuge taken in a comforting vision of a heaven or an afterlife. For Carl, what mattered most was what was true, not merely what would make us feel better. Even at this moment when anyone would be forgiven for turning away from the reality of our situation, Carl was unflinching. As we looked deeply into each other's eyes, it was with a shared conviction that our wondrous life together was ending forever."

I feel like he did and that's the way I will be too...

Sargeant Thorne... you're wrong. I'll get back to you

Bee

Ferno wrote:

Sergeant Thorne wrote:Do you have a source for that first quote, Ferno?

Google. :)

Google is not a source. It's a force of nature.

EDIT: I thought that quoted sounded familiar. The original source is Palestinian PM Mahmoud Abbas, a man I wouldn't trust to raise a cactus plant. He cites no witnesses except for himself, and he seems to have tried to spin the story into a "look at me pwning Bush" story.

If you're skeptical about Fox News, you gotta be skeptical about Abbas.

Ahh, come on Bett, remember the drowning scenario we discussed?

And where did I say anything about being weak, are you going to start to put words in my mouth now too?

Dakatsu wrote:

woodchip wrote:Since most of you have never been in the military, let alone combat, let me simply say there are no atheist in a foxhole.

Oh shut the hell up you ignorant prick. Besides the fact I am too young to join the military (I will admit that I don't have the guts or courage to do it, alright), my non believing grandfather fought in World War II. He was an American Marine who fought on Iwo Jima. He was climbing Mount Suribachi, when he got blown off of the mountain and was severely injured. He also had his thumb nearly sliced off by a berserking Japanese soldier, and retired from the Marine Corps as a Drill Sergeant. He earned among many other medals, the purple heart. So how about you **** think before you assume stupid *****? Your side bitches about Honoring the Troops, then you discredit non believers who served their country? **** shameful.

I'm sorry, but that crap infuriates me.

I'm sorry Dak I offended you. I got my draft notice back in 67 while I was trying to work and go to college. I joined the USMC instead and did my three years. I ★■◆●ing prayed when ever I was in a Huey and we were going over a ridge line and NVA .50's opened up on us. I prayed that the NVA mortars that had us zero'd in while we were sitting hunkered down in a fox hole half filled with water wouldn't hit me. And I prayed that a buddy that had his guts blown out would get med-evac'd out in time so he wouldn't die.
So why don't you take your self absorbed indulgences and shove them up where the sun don't shine.

And Hostile, we prayed the chopper pilots that were coming to haul our sorry asses out, didn't get diverted somewhere else. Seals were only just getting formed up back then.

Spidey wrote:Ahh, come on Bett, remember the drowning scenario we discussed?
And where did I say anything about being weak, are you going to start to put words in my mouth now too?

Oh yeah! I remember now. Would I save a drowning dog over a drowning human but I don't know what you mean as it relates to the presidency.

And no, I wouldn't put words in your mouth but I'm prone to taking a guess.

Bee

Thorne wrote:Show me someone who doesn't believe in God, who holds to solid morals all around, and I'll show you someone who isn't far from the God of the Bible...

Since you think that someone is good insofar as they are close to the God of the Bible, how can you sincerely ask Bet to demonstrate to you someone who is both good and far from the God of the Bible?

Lothar wrote:
Google is not a source. It's a force of nature.

Sure is. all you gotta do is type in 'george bush famous quotes' and you'll find it. global research and about a dozen other sites have all the famous W quotes on it.

Yea, and all his “misquotes” too…

Ferno wrote:

Lothar wrote:
Google is not a source. It's a force of nature.

Sure is. all you gotta do is type in 'george bush famous quotes' and you'll find it. global research and about a dozen other sites have all the famous W quotes on it.

Right... but "Google" doesn't tell me anything about the credibility of the source. "Mahmoud Abbas claimed he said it in a private meeting" does.

I read that abbas article, and at the end is the quote. From reading your post, you come off as saying Abbas had instigated that comment.

there are other GW quotes about being spoken to by god, and those are also on globalresearch.


and LOL @ misquotes. is that anything like 'misheard', 'miscommunication' or something else spidey? because your bias is showing.

“because your bias is showing.”

Not to worry, it’s clean.

oh I don't doubt that but I don't go that way. perhaps one of your buddies would be interested.

Ferno wrote:From reading your post, you come off as saying Abbas had instigated that comment.

I'm saying Abbas may have: invented, instigated, misinterpreted, misunderstood, or misquoted the comment.

W has spoken plenty about God, prayer, etc. But the only instance of him supposedly saying God told him to attack Saddam or Al Qaeda (that I'm aware of) came from a questionable source with no independent witnesses, no video, no context, and no further details. We have a single non-credible witness and our own imaginations to go on; that's not really enough to make a solid case.

If you want to criticize Bush for "hearing from God", you can do it while sticking to verifiable quotes of whole sentences -- and similarly for Palin, Obama, McCain, or any others. Thus far, the verifiable whole-sentence quotes I've seen have been fairly tame. The controversial and worrying stuff has turned out to be either misquoted or totally unverified.

Watch out, your bias might be showing.

Either way, when I see quotes like this:

\"I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job.\"

it makes me wonder what exactly a person has in terms of leadership qualities, even if he was 'misquoted'.

it makes me wonder why a person would say such a thing, and what kind of thought process led up to it.

makes me wonder if you read or believe Lothar's post.

Duper wrote:makes me wonder if you read or believe Lothar's post.

too easy

lol!