DescentBB

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:26 am**

flip wrote:One thing is for sure. If you believe in the biblical account, then there is no other creature made like man in the image God. ....blah blah ... Yet, if you are a christian, you have to believe that we are the only ones made in the image of God and therefore are the preeminent creation above all else and that all things whether natural or alien were made for us to rule over.

Oh? Where does the Bible state we're the only ones made in the image of God? Yes, it states we were created in the image of God, but I don't think it states we're the ONLY ones made in his image.

flip wrote:There may be life elsewhere, who knows, but for sure if your a christian you can only believe that we are the only ones made to rule creation with God.

Hmmm ... I think you misunderstand. The Bible only states that for us (the people of this Earth) there is but one God. Him. It does not state anything for or against others from other planets.

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:35 am**

Good works cannot save you, but faith without good works is dead. Since we are all sinners, constantly sinning, and even our best works are but filthy rags, we need faith in God's mercy, delivered through Jesus' death and resurrection, to be let into Heaven.

Back on topic, I believe there was a Catholic leader who said ruling out the possibility of extraterrestrial life puts limits on a creative God.

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:52 am**

Foil wrote:I should have known this would partly revert into another 'origins' debate.
. . .
If one assumes that God created the universe, why would He create more than humanity could ever visit or even observe?[/b] (e.g. Why dark matter?)

I didn't mean to question origins so much as I meant to question the idea that God created the universe to demonstrate that he was creator. My argument is just that, even if we assume that God exists, he could have done a much better job of convincing us that he was creator of the universe, especially considering how well we can explain the universe's natural evolution, even at this present day.

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:01 am**

Quantum Entanglement.

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:32 am**

Well Techpro I can only answer this. If they were given freewill such as we have they better not mess up because there is only one Son of God and he's already died once.

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:43 am**

Who's to say that the son of God hasn't died and been resurrected on many planets?

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:48 am**

who says that \"if\" there are creatures on other planets they have a sinful nature??

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:43 am**

CUDA wrote:who says that "if" there are creatures on other planets they have a sinful nature??

I don't know but when their flying saucers swoop down and they start melting us with their ray guns everyone on earth will suddenly find religion!

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:46 am**

Gort, barenga!

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:27 pm**

ROFL Will! Good conversation starting from this thread. Time is a concept made by man... maybe time doesn't matter to some beings, or they live in a different \"time-frame\" or plane than us. If you lived near a wormhole and parked a ship near the event horizon you could halt it and even travel in time. They could be amongst us and we wouldn't have a clue.

Our concepts of life and death and reality are based on one small planet in a relatively small galaxy parked at a certain distance from our Sun. We haven't learned much over the last 2,000 years other than being able to kill each other in increasing numbers and worship the dollar. To think we are more advanced compared to a species that is over a million years old and perhaps interacts with other species lets say three million years old, is ludicrous. We are to rule over them? I don't even want to think that way thanks.

I believe putting in practice the common good precepts of kindness, peace, treat one as you wish to be treated, amongst many more from other Religions and beliefs, speaks volumes on one's soul more than reciting passages from 6 billion versions of text and placing it as literal meaning today.

Going for a walk with the dog to reflect.

Posted: **Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:50 pm**

Will Robinson wrote:
CUDA wrote:who says that "if" there are creatures on other planets they have a sinful nature??
I don't know but when their flying saucers swoop down and they start melting us with their ray guns everyone on earth will suddenly find religion!

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:05 am**

Sergeant Thorne wrote:EDIT: Looking back over it I wonder if my sarcasm was misdirected. I guess maybe you weren't talking about life in the universe, FJ. If I misunderstood I apologize.

Don't sweat it, I'm an athiest, I just think it's an intersting concept.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:22 am**

Foil wrote:So, those potentially beautiful planets and nebulas out there in galaxies millions of light-years away, far beyond what we can observe... why should their value be determined by humanity?

Flip wrote:The universe and the vastness of God.

SilverFJ wrote:It's arrogant to assume that the vastness of the universe has anything to do with us.

Well said, well said all!

Sargent Thorne wrote:I have no vested interest in us being the only ones in the universe, but that seems to be what the Bible indicates and I consider it to be what it claims to be--the infallible word of God.

flip wrote: If you believe in the biblical account, then there is no other creature made like man in the image God.

Back this up with scripture and verse. I've never seen this anywhere in the Bible. Actually, I can give you text that imply the opposite.

Job 1:6

Job 1:6 wrote:Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Now SOME interpret "Sons of God" to be angels. And honestly, there just isn't enough information here to prove either side right. But it's an odd way to refer to angels. Consider that Adam was given dominion over our world. He lost it at the fall. Was Satan showing up at this council claiming the place of Adam? (Note that Luke 3:38 calls Adam "the son of God", and in Matt. 4:9 Satan claims the dominion of Earth as his to give). If so, then one very valid interpretation would be that this was a council of the "rulers" of various worlds. That would make Earth one among many.

Why should we assume that Rev 12:12

Rev 12:12 wrote:Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them

is refering only to Angels, and not to other worlds?

And does Rom 8:22

Rom 8:22 wrote:For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

refer ONLY to the physical and angelic creation, or could it refer to life on other worlds?

Again, we do NOT have enough information here to say one way or the other for certain. BUT, we have texts (Especially in Job) that could easily imply that God has created intelligent life on other worlds. We have not ONE text that tells us He hasn't. As C. S. Lewis said, that's not OUR story.

flip wrote:Doesn't make sense to me that he would have made other peoples and yet leave them to die without mercy or hope of salvation, so as a Christian its hard for me to believe that God made other peoples but has no regard for them.

Why would you assume intelligent creatures on other worlds were fallen and in need of redemption? Or, if they ARE fallen, that they have no plan of redemption?

Will Robinson wrote:And a few hundred generations from now when humans have mastered worm hole travel they could be hopping from one galaxy to the next at a pace that makes your absolute assertion seem like the same thing people told Orville and Wilbur Wright about 'man isn't meant to fly'.
Anything is possible unless you have tried every possible way to do it and failed. It's all about the spice...

Exactly. Bettina is, of course, correct according to current science. But knowledge increases and just like science expanded when we went from Newtonian Physics to Einsteinian, I'm certain our knowledge of physics will continue to deepen.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:38 am**

Will Robinson wrote:And a few hundred generations from now when humans have mastered worm hole travel they could be hopping from one galaxy to the next at a pace that makes your absolute assertion seem like the same thing people told Orville and Wilbur Wright about 'man isn't meant to fly'.
Anything is possible unless you have tried every possible way to do it and failed. It's all about the spice...

...or at least we'll have iPods that can fit under your fingernail...

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:38 am**

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:28 am**

Kilarin wrote:Why should we assume that Rev 12:12 is refering only to Angels, and not to other worlds?

When you read the surrounding verses

Revelation 12 wrote:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.
...

12 "Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

it's pretty clear that it is referring to where the devil used to be.

This seems to be an instance of bringing ideas into the Bible, instead of taking it purely for what it says. We shouldn't read the Bible like that.

EDIT: And let me quote Romans 8:22 again...

Romans 8:22 wrote:For WE KNOW that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:41 am**

Well First I'll start with the biblical account of the whole creation.

Genesis 1

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

By this account we are told that heaven (atmosphere) and earth did not exist at all, light did not even exist. He calls them the first day.

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Here it says that the sun, the stars and all of the universe was created to give light to the Earth specifically. It says that the Earth was made first then everything else was created to complete the Earth.

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Here we see God declaring that man we will be like Him and that he gave Man dominion over the whole Earth.

Ok so far we see by the Genesis account that nothing existed until God decided to create the Earth. God created the Earth first, then everything else to make the Earth complete and self sufficient.
After this he creates Man in his likeness to rule and have dominion over what he has created.

I have more but I'll post this first to see if there are any disputes, but so far by the Genesis account we see the Earth as being the center of all things.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:00 pm**

SilverFJ wrote:...
...or at least we'll have iPods that can fit under your fingernail...

More like organic processors and multi-terabyte drives that can be implanted before birth and grown directly linked to our brains!

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:02 pm**

Time out, bad idea!

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:53 pm**

Where my personal philosophy is at the moment…

The Universe is eternal, and therefore never needed to be created. The “Big Bang” is either a cycle or a local occurrence.

God is either the entire universe or the force that is/or creates life, within the universe. (I tend toward the former)

We call God “the creator”…well, the universe created me.

My concept is based on the idea that “God” cannot be less than “all there is”.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:47 pm**

You also have to think about biological comprehension. What does an ant know about the freeway it's colony is built next to, and does it have the ability to understand it?

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:28 pm**

Sergeant Thorne wrote:Time out, bad idea!

what? You don't want a biological built in WiFi antennae between your scalp and skull so you can download from iTunes direct to your brain's C: drive while you watch YouTube on the inside of your eyelids?!? ...have a GPS screen appear at will in the skin on your palm...change killer tatoo's like you change wallpaper on your desktop

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:37 pm**

Sergeant Thorne wrote:it's pretty clear that it is referring to where the devil used to be.
This seems to be an instance of bringing ideas into the Bible, instead of taking it purely for what it says. We shouldn't read the Bible like that.

My statement was that we have no evidence from this verse to strictly limit the interpretation to angels. The fact that John is discussing a war of angels does NOT give sufficient evidence to limit those who dwell in the heavens to angels only. For example, if we were discussing the war in Iraq between the insurgents and the U.S. Army, I might conclude with, and now Iraq, and everyone who lives there, can rejoice that the war is over! "Everyone who lives there" obviously includes a lot more than the U.S. Army and the insurgents.

To the Jews, "The Heavens" covered the sky where clouds and rain came from, the starry heavens, the dwelling place of God, and could even simply mean the entire universe. I agree with you that we shouldn't read things into the Bible that aren't there. I think stating that this text is definitely ONLY talking about Angels is reading things into the Bible that are not there.

flip wrote:By this account we are told that heaven (atmosphere) and earth did not exist at all, light did not even exist. He calls them the first day.

Actually, even many young earth creationist believe that the stars were created before the fourth day, they are mentioned there as a side note. BUT, even taking the most strictly literal interpretation of Gen 1:1, you are still assuming that God has only created one universe. There is nothing in the Bible to support that. (It would be amazing if there were).

Again, I am NOT saying that anything in the Bible proves that God has created life on other worlds, just that there is nothing in the Bible that says He didn't. There is certainly no logical problem with Him having done so.

To quote from a favorite book of mine, "Do you think that the Lord on high is so frail that this little planet with its greedy little people, is all that He can do?"

God is BIG. I like SilverFJ's analogy of the ant by the highway. God is so Big that we will be studying Him for all eternity and will NEVER fully understand the full depths of His glory. I think it's amusing seeing the catch-22 situation when the anti-theist argue that the vastness of space proves God doesn't exist. If the universe were small they would be using THAT as an argument to prove God was too puny.

But God is NOT puny, He is BIG, and there is no limited to his creativity. He created us, He created our planet, He created our solar system, He created the Milky Way Galaxy, He created an entire universe so unbelievably, mindboggelingly huge that in just one teensy tinsy section of the sky, about the size of 1mm x 1mm square of paper held 1 meter in front of you, the Hubble Ultra Deep Field found 10,000 galaxies. That's 10,000 galaxies in one thirteen-millionth of the total area of the sky. 10,000 galaxies in a speck almost too small to see. <link> <link>.

There are only about 3,000 stars visible to the naked eye on a clear dark night. Next time you are out somewhere DARK, not in the city, or even the suburbs, but some where REALLY DARK, with a good unobstructed view of the sky. Look up and around. Try to take in how MANY stars you can see. Then when you are feeling really, really small, see if you can find the planet Venus, it's usually the brightest thing in the sky. Now imagine a spot about 3 times the size of venus. It's still just a tiny, tiny speck in that great big sky. But in that spot there are more than three times as many GALAXIES as there are stars that you can see in the entire sky. And each of those galaxies contain ten million to ten TRILLION stars EACH. All in that one tiny speck. Now expand that tiny spot and try, just TRY to imagine that density of galaxies covering the entire sky.

And that's just the visible universe. Our universe may very likely go on and on beyond the edge of our "light sphere".

And that's just OUR universe. We have no reason to believe that God limited Himself to one universe. There could be any NUMBER of universes in existence. Physics is certainly hinting that way.

And now that you've had so much bigness it has completely overwhelmed you, realize that the God who created all of that, came down to this planet and died for you.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:34 pm**

Back this up with scripture and verse.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:02 pm**

Flip wrote:Back this up with scripture and verse.

I need some more specifics about what part you felt I didn't back up.

My statement that Gen 1 does not require us to believe that God has created only one universe? Or my general comments on the size of the universe? The first I can go further into from a Biblical perspective. The second isn't really addressed directly in the Bible.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:43 pm**

Any and all of it Kilarin. You specifically asked me to use scripture as the basis of why I believe we are the apple of Gods' eye's, then instead of holding yourself to the same request, give me a bunch of what if's and could be's. The bible, the only account as far as I know where God chooses to reveal himself, states that the universe was created after the earth was formed and that the universe itself WAS the creation of time.

The Bible says not to go beyond what is written. If Christianity is a bunch of what if's and maybe's and not an accurate account of what really happened, then I'm gonna go fire up a fatty, buy a 12 pack of Miller high life and find some young miniskirt to chase. I never said God couldn't do anything, I just think the bible verses I pointed out makes it clear He didn't. I can't think of anything else I have to offer unless we hold ourselves strictly to what is written.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:25 pm**

You know, one of the problems this thread suffers from ... People keep trying to apply the Bible as if it applies to the entire Universe. The \"Creation\" as told in the Bible, is from the perspective of Earth (this planet). \"In the beginning\" applies to the beginning from the perspective of this planet (called Earth). Does \"In the beginning\" also apply to the entire Universe? The Bible does not say. To say that because the Bible states that after the Earth was created was the stars caused to appear (\"Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven\" - King James version, my favorite) therefore the stars did not exist until after the Earth existed ... is silly. To require so much time (a \"day\"?) to form the Earth and then in another single \"day\" create the stars (lights in the heaven) which is a far bigger creation ... doesn't make sense at all. I'm not trying to put limits on the abilities of God, but you'd think that if he could create all those stars (the Universe) in a day, it surely wouldn't require a whole day to create this tiny little Earth.

The point is ... The things/info in the Bible apply to this Earth, the people on this Earth, and is a telling of ancient history of people on this Earth. Written by the hand of ancient men who had a very limited understanding of their own world let alone the Universe. Their perspective was limited to this Earth and they could only explain from their limited perspective.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:57 pm**

Flip wrote:You specifically asked me to use scripture as the basis of why I believe we are the apple of Gods' eye's,

Not exactly. I asked you to use scripture to back up that we are the ONLY non-angelic life God ever created. You DID answer me with scripture, and I really appreciate that. I thought I addressed your scriptures, but apparently I didn't do it very well! I'll try to improve on that in this message.

Flip wrote:then instead of holding yourself to the same request, give me a bunch of what if's and could be's.

My contention was that the Bible does not tell us anywhere that we are the only non angelic life God ever created. When the Bible does not directly address an issue, the way to point that out is to show there are situations that the text do not cover. The Bible doesn't say whether God has created other non-angelic peoples or not. We just aren't told that part of the story.

For example, we happen to have TWO versions of the story of Manasseh, one in 2 Kgs 21.1-18 and the other in 2 Chr 33.1-20
They are both consistent about what a horrible and evil King Manasseh was. The Kings story stops there. But the Chronicles story goes a bit further:

2 Chr 33:12-13 wrote:And when he was in affliction, he besought the LORD his God, and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers, and prayed unto him: and he was entreated of him, and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manas'seh knew that the LORD he was God.

This repentance and conversion story just isn't mentioned in the Kings version at all. Does that make the Kings version inaccurate? Of course not. It didn't say that Mannasah DIDN'T repent, that just wasn't part of the story that it told. If we had only had the book of Kings, and not the book of Chronicles, it would have been reading something into the Bible that wasn't there to say that Manasseh died a wicked man. Even though the story never specifically mentioned his repentance.

Flip wrote:The Bible says not to go beyond what is written.

And that's what I feel is happening here. The Bible doesn't say that God created other peoples, but it also does not say that He didn't. Just like with the Manasseh story, if we say the Bible answers a question that it does not actually address, we are going beyond what is written.

The Bible DOES say that God created the angels. It does say that everything that is was created by Him. It no where says that we are the ONLY non-angelic creatures created or even the only creatures created in His image.

Let me back up to this one specifically:

Flip wrote: The bible, the only account as far as I know where God chooses to reveal himself, states that the universe was created after the earth was formed and that the universe itself WAS the creation of time.

I certainly agree that God created Time. And, for the sake of this discussion, I'm granting your interpretation of Genesis 1, that the whole universe was created within a six day span. This interpretation would exclude the possibility of having had peoples created previously in our universe, since our universe didn't exist previously. Since there wasn't even a "previously" in this universe for them to have been created in.

But even with that very strict interpretation of Gen 1, we still have at LEAST two wide open possibilities for God to have created other non-angelic life.

1: He could have created life on other planets AFTER He created life on earth.
2: Genesis One describes the creation of OUR universe. It doesn't say anywhere that our universe is the only one God ever created. I mean a different universe that is not connected to ours through time or space.

Again, I am NOT attempting to defend that the Bible says there are other non-angelic beings out there. It doesn't. It just doesn't say there AREN'T either. And if we aren't going to go beyond what the Bible says, I don't think we should declare that we know either way on this one. It's an open question.

One more point, I don't think this is an IMPORTANT question. If God has other children out there somewhere, that doesn't diminish His love for me at all. It is a FASCINATING question, but it doesn't have any theological impact on the plan of salvation as far as I can tell. And it's only very indirectly related to Foil's question. Should we start another topic?

TechPro wrote: "In the beginning" applies to the beginning from the perspective of this planet (called Earth). Does "In the beginning" also apply to the entire Universe? The Bible does not say.

Actually, I think Gen 1:1 applies to the entire multiverse, the cosmos, everything that is, was, or ever will be. From Gen 1:2 on I agree, the point of view narrows.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:26 pm**

I'm granting your interpretation of Genesis 1, that the whole universe was created within a six day span

No no no. We just had this discussion not long ago and I made it very clear I do not believe that creation was done in 6 literal days and nowhere in this thread do I say that. 6 literal days is not scientifically sound and beyond that I believe is totally against God's nature. This is an excerpt from the \"Ignorance in the name of religion\" thread where I painstakingly described why I felt the 6 literal days was an error.

I answered to hastily in my first post. As far as the 6 days thing. First let me make clear, were discussing what the bible says of itself and not whether its true or not. I've just sat and read Genesis, chapter 1. The whole thing reeks of God taking his time, which considering how the book describes his nature makes perfect sense to. To one day start a seed and slowly overtime watch it grow to maturity. Doing each thing one at a time and then the next in it's time. That makes sense to me, The God that the bible describes. It also is scientifically sound.

I think what happened is you assumed I'm a young earther (I'm not) and attributed their thoughts as mine and got sidetracked. The point I was trying to make is that the whole of creation, as laid out in the bible, all revolved around making the Earth and nothing about the time creation took. Nothing. The Bible does however, chronologically point out the order in which the events occurred and that was the point I was trying to make.

Lol it's probably bad form to keep quoting yourself but here it is again in it's entirety.

Well First I'll start with the biblical account of the whole creation.
Quote:
Genesis 1

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

By this account we are told that heaven (atmosphere) and earth did not exist at all, light did not even exist. He calls them the first day.

Quote:
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

Here it says that the sun, the stars and all of the universe was created to give light to the Earth specifically. It says that the Earth was made first then everything else was created to complete the Earth.

Quote:
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Here we see God declaring that man we will be like Him and that he gave Man dominion over the whole Earth.

Ok so far we see by the Genesis account that nothing existed until God decided to create the Earth. God created the Earth first, then everything else to make the Earth complete and self sufficient.
After this he creates Man in his likeness to rule and have dominion over what he has created.

I have more but I'll post this first to see if there are any disputes, but so far by the Genesis account we see the Earth as being the center of all things.

As you can see I never mentioned a time frame once, Just that there IS[/u} a specific numbered ordered of events and that all creation was made to make the earth inhabitable. So again, I reiterate that according to the Genesis account, We see the Earth as being the center of all things and the motivation for all the rest of creation.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:15 pm**

TechPro wrote:You know, one of the problems this thread suffers from ... People keep trying to apply the Bible as if it applies to the entire Universe. The "Creation" as told in the Bible, is from the perspective of Earth (this planet). "In the beginning" applies to the beginning from the perspective of this planet (called Earth). Does "In the beginning" also apply to the entire Universe? The Bible does not say. To say that because the Bible states that after the Earth was created was the stars caused to appear ("Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven" - King James version, my favorite) therefore the stars did not exist until after the Earth existed ... is silly. To require so much time (a "day"?) to form the Earth and then in another single "day" create the stars (lights in the heaven) which is a far bigger creation ... doesn't make sense at all. I'm not trying to put limits on the abilities of God, but you'd think that if he could create all those stars (the Universe) in a day, it surely wouldn't require a whole day to create this tiny little Earth.

The point is ... The things/info in the Bible apply to this Earth, the people on this Earth, and is a telling of ancient history of people on this Earth. Written by the hand of ancient men who had a very limited understanding of their own world let alone the Universe. Their perspective was limited to this Earth and they could only explain from their limited perspective.

That is the truth, but what’s really sad is…the way this thread has simply become another in the ongoing debates into the interpretation of scripture.

But, what I want to know is…on what day did God create Quasars.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:34 pm**

does it all really matter? I mean REALLY???

It's enough that it's out there and cool.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:48 pm**

Only because “science” made it cool, if it were up the the Christian Church, we prolly wouldn’t even have the telescope, and would all still believe the stars were pinprick holes in a huge drape. (not so cool) (also exaggerated)

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:51 pm**

Genesis:

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth

How long is a Year? 365 days. How long does it take for the earth to go around the sun? 365 days.
How long is a month? Around 30 days. How long does it take the moon to go around the earth? Oh about 30 days. How long is a day? oh about 24 hours. How long does it take the earth to spin one time? About 24 hours. How long does it take Haleys Comet to travel in it's orbit? Oh about every 76 years. I'm just saying that the Bible declares the universe was made to keep track of time as we know it on Earth. No universe=no time.

Since the thread title is \"God and the vastness of the universe\" I figure quoting out of the book that declares God would make sense.

That is the truth, but what’s really sad is…the way this thread has simply become another in the ongoing debates into the interpretation of scripture.

I totally agree. It is pointless because no one here is gonna agree on anything. Not even the simplest of things. As a Christian you have to believe the Biblical account or why even bother, yet out of a scripture that plainly numbers itself,
1.this
then
2.this
then
3.this
we debate whether 3 comes before 1. Yes pointless because there is no consensus at all and I will say this, if it were not for the bible, no Christian here could convince me of anything because they draw from to many wells. Yes pointless and a waste of time.

Posted: **Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:52 pm**

Spidey wrote:Only because “science” made it cool, if it were up the the Christian Church, we prolly wouldn’t even have the telescope, and would all still believe the stars were pinprick holes in a huge drape. (not so cool) (also exaggerated)

sigh..

That would be the Catholic Church.

Posted: **Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:16 am**

I was referring to pre reformation…(hence the word “Christian” instead of “Catholic”)

And in all fairness…a lot of the Christian Churches have come a long way, but many people still wish to live 2 or 3 thousand years in the past.

Posted: **Mon Mar 02, 2009 3:14 am**

begin wasted drunk FJ rant---

I have to get \"bipartisan\" with this one, if not even completely athiest-backstabbing...

We're NEVER gunna know what the answers to these questions are. We stimulate our puny human intellect by having these well-natured conversations on our light-up boxes with our fingers. Evolution and the basis of our existence, my athiest friends, is often misconstrued as absolute truth, and I'll be the first to say it's not. It's a theory. Our assumption that it's correct should not be a belief system or even treated like one. We have to recognize that every day things are proven and disproven about it.

So if a Christian has the beliefs registered in this thread, we have to recognize it as a completely different train of thought. Too often we try to put them up against our own methods of logic, but that's like putting batteries in the wrong way in your remote, it's never, ever gunna work.

So back to topic.

Addressing Kil, and anyone else using the Bible to justify their platform on this issue--it's not going to get the point across to someone who doesn't believe in it. It would be like if I started quoting Origin of the Species to try and make a point to you.

It's unfortunate that the scientific community is laregely liberal as it doesn't leave much creedence to the people of this world who are both believers and scientists at the same time. \"Christian scientists\" only recieve bashing because there's a lynch mob after them. Now I can't say I agree with the \"Athiests Nightmare\", the banana theory (if you've heard of that crock of ★■◆●) but theres actually some good, wise things to be heard.

But like I said, no matter who makes the point, no-one will ever know the answer, unless that is that the Christians were right the whole time and will learn upon death, whereas I will be burning in hell.

/drunk

Posted: **Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:54 am**

Spidey wrote:...And in all fairness…a lot of the Christian Churches have come a long way, but many people still wish to live 2 or 3 thousand years in the past.

Religion is all about the funny hats. A bunch of overbearing people with hat fetishes fighting over which hat is proper!
Free your heads people!

Posted: **Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:49 pm**

Spidey wrote:But, what I want to know is…on what day did God create Quasars.

Nice, I think I'd like to know too, if only out of curiosity.

Posted: **Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:52 pm**

It's very easy to say that current science changes as new methods develop and I believe that too but right now the basic laws of physics for our universe states that an infinite amount of energy is needed to accelerate to the speed of light. It's perfectly possible that other universes created from a different big bang will operate with a different set of physics but it will be local to their universe only. For us, the rules are that no particle can exceed 186,000 mps and that's been observed and tested in particle accelerators. Humans traveling in space would be limited to speeds much lower than that making it impossible to live long enough to reach the edge of our own solar system... let alone our own galaxy.

With the estimated 78 billion-trillion stars in the observable universe and the sheer number of planets that have a high probability for life to evolve, makes this uncomprehendable vastness of the universe highly incompatible with the bible that I read. The bible script makes clear...at least to me... that the authors perspective of the universe was strictly two dimensional so when they used words like \"stars\", and \"the heavens\", it was simply their view of the night sky. It's really sad when so many people try to read more into the bible than they should and giving it unending interpretations to try to keep up with reality just cheapens it.

Bee

DescentBB

God and the vastness of the universe

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