DescentBB

Mine was more Dramatic

CUDA wrote:Mine was more Dramatic

True dat

I wish I could blame my employees when my customers are not happy.

change your company name to ACORN

All that negative information on Acorn can't be true.
Smells like a big Right Wing Conspiracy to me.

Poor Acorn.

Foil wrote:Honestly, there's too much propaganda for me to wade through. So what I'd like to know is: How many employees are being investigated and charged, and at what level in the company?

If it's only a few low-level recruiters, then I think I'd tend to agree with Pandora; that would sound like a few lazy low-lifes trying to make a buck.

Of around 13.000 registration people, around 100 to 200 (1 to 2%) have been charged nationwide (over several years I think), and most of them have been turned in by ACORN itself. As far as I know, no investigation into ACORN itself has ever turned up any sign of wrongdoing on their part. In fact, the contrary is the typically case, where such charges have been dismissed with prejudice.

Here are a few examples of the noise being made and the actual stories:

Here's some background on a case (on Cuda's long list) about the fast food restaurant in Indiana being allegedly turned in by ACORN.

The Republican National Committee immediately sent out a press release with a transcript of the CNN report and this obviously fraudulent voter registration application became the talk of the blogosphere. What was missing from the report and the resulting reaction was the fact that ACORN had not only flagged that application and several others as fraudulent, but had fired the canvassers who turned them in.

Another one from Cuda's list, the 12 people convicted of voter fraud in Missouri 2004 (from here)

In the case of ACORN activists convicted of fraud in Missouri, Hebert says ACORN itself had “actually turned those people in to the local district attorney and to the feds, saying these people had been engaging in fictitious registration forms. None of those people actually voted, and none of them even got registered, because ACORN called attention to the fact that these were likely bogus applications.”

Another one from Cuda's list (from here), "the worst case of voter registration fraud in Washington state history".

But in the cases cited as evidence of voter fraud by ACORN -- most notably one cited as the worst case of voter fraud in the state of Washington, where seven people were convicted last year -- the prosecutor himself noted that it was a scheme by a few individuals to make money. No one was actually trying to influence the outcome of the election.

but I think ACORN was fined for not exercising sufficient oversight.

CUDA wrote:I re:read your posts after I went home last night and came to the conclusion that no matter how much information I provide it will NEVER be enough for you to see reality

Oh you can convince me --- just provide me with some *real* evidence, not just lists of 20+ items, most of them reports of mere allegations, without any links to source material, and where those items that I WAS able to double check actually turn out to be only half the story.

So do you have any hard evidence at all that there higher ups in ACORN are involved in any sort of conspiracy? And can you explain the many documented cases in which ACORN did actually turn in the canvassers that were indeed fabricating false voter registration forms? Do you not have at least a little bit of cognitive dissonance about that?

by the way: cognitive dissonance

Wiki wrote:Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously.

Another half-story from Cuda's list:

\"New Mexico – The Bernalillo County clerk has notified prosecutors that some 1,100 fraudulent voter registration cards were turned in by ACORN.\"

The other half of the story can be found here, among others;

“After examining the evidence, and in conjunction with the Justice Department Election Crimes Unit and the FBI, I could not find any cases I could prosecute beyond a reasonable doubt,” Iglesias said. “Accordingly, I did not authorize any voter fraud related prosecutions.”

Pandora, you're demanding *real* evidence of ACORN or ACORN employees being involved in wrongful practices ... How about you also take the time to provide *real* evidence of \"many documented cases in which ACORN did actually turn in the canvassers that were indeed fabricating false voter registration forms\".

I've personally seen the news articles and reports of at least some of the wrongful activites. A simple Google search brings much of it back (and a whole lot more).

http://www.lvrj.com/news/24004424.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/09/ ... index.html
http://www.rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html
http://www.examiner.com/x-268-Right-Sid ... onnections
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/l ... ud26m.html

Now,
Where's that info about those times that ACORN did the turning in instead of getting caught first?

And the point still remains that, ACORN is distrusted by a large part of the public, so the prudent thing to do is not let them have anything to do with the census taking process.

It’s called vetting, and they don’t pass the test, plain & simple.

Pandora wrote:So do you have any hard evidence at all that there higher ups in ACORN are involved in any sort of conspiracy?

first it was just ACORN, now its higher-ups in ACORN, you changed your own standards Pandora. whats next the founder of ACORN? or the Government for funding ACORN? besides I'm done I've made my point ABUNDANTLY clear to anyone impartial enough to look. as Spidey says, they, their practices, and their employees are untrustworthy at best and criminal at worst. they have no business being used in this Census count. where it can and will effect how votes can be taken.

Cuda, are we totally talking at cross purposes here? Nobody disputes that there have been and probably still are some rotten eggs among the 13.000 canvassers ACORN has. It is to be expected, and ACORN is actively engaged in weeding them out. The extent of these problems is also by several orders of magnitude lower than what it is made out to be. What I am really disputing is that there is some organized conspiracy within ACORN to commit voter fraud, or even registration fraud. So far, nobody here has provided any evidence for these latter claims, and as far as I can see none exists. But I am *really* open to be convinced otherwise.

TechPro wrote:How about you also take the time to provide *real* evidence of "many documented cases in which ACORN did actually turn in the canvassers that were indeed fabricating false voter registration forms".

Here you'll find an Affidavit showing that ACORN has identified and alerted authorities about faulty registrations and about canvassers that were submitting false registrations (refers to the Las Vegas 2008 point in Cuda's list).

Another one here referring to the Indiana incident on Cuda's list, was already in my post above.

Another one here, this time from Milwaukee. Cuda's list describes it thusly:

Additionally, its workers are among 49 cases of bad registrations sent to authorities for possible charges, as first reported by the Journal Sentinel.

It fails to report what the Journal Sentinel also said:

And even though the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now caught the fraud and reported it before the cards were turned in, the incident revived a four-year-old partisan debate over the integrity of Wisconsin's voter registration process

Happy now? You can look for yourself, these cases are not so hard to find.

So what you are saying is, that all these ACORN workers are doing this stuff spontaneously, without any direction from the top? Just like postal workers that leave bags of mail under bridges, instead of delivering it. Because that’s what postal workers do…

More or less, yes. But I would compare it more with the guys putting advertisements into your post boxes. They might not deliver all of those they agreed to but drop some into the trash when its raining and they've better things to do. I know they do. I've been one of them.

TechPro wrote:'ve personally seen the news articles and reports of at least some of the wrongful activites. A simple Google search brings much of it back (and a whole lot more).

Regarding these links of evidence. Go through them carefully, and see how much in there is actual evidence, and how much are just allegations and misinformation. And then you can double check for a bit more background. Take your second one for example.

Your link says:

And in Lake County, home to the long-depressed steel town of Gary, the bipartisan Elections Board has stopped processing a stack of about 5,000 applications delivered just before the October 6 registration deadline after the first 2,100 turned out to be phony. "All the signatures looked exactly the same," Ruthann Hoagland, a Republican on the board. "Everything on the card filled out looks exactly the same."

Now see what the report did not include. First, ACORN's response:

ACORN flags and turns in three kinds of cards, those that it can verify, those that are incomplete, and those that it flags as problematic. It turns those in labeled in a special way and are very conservative in terms of what it flags as problematic. It has stacks of problematic cover sheets. [...] The Lake County Board knew about the questionable registrations today because ACORN flagged them for the board. For example, the Jimmy John’s card is one that a caller had flagged and labeled as problematic. ACORN can get that caller to talk to the press.

Is it true?

According to Regina Harris, the Director of Registrations for Lake County, this claim checks out. "It's certainly true. They did have three batches separated." she told me this morning. "There was a pile they knew were good, there was some they said had missing info -- like no voter ID number or a missing birthday -- and another batch they called 'suspicious.' "

from here.
You can do the rest for yourself.

Spidey wrote:And the point still remains that, ACORN is distrusted by a large part of the public, so the prudent thing to do is not let them have anything to do with the census taking process.

I'm really torn on this. On the one hand I agree. On the other, wouldn't this just mean that the side with the better smear campaign wins?

Thank you for providing links to instances where ACORN acted first (instead of waiting for others to point it out).

However, Of those first three links you provided me, the first one indicates ACORN taking their own action in response to the \"raid\" in Las Vegas (actions by Las Vegas authorities spurred ACORN to take action) so I can't accept that one as ACORN acting first. Sure ACORN stated that \"raid\" was a political stunt, but that was ACORN's statement about it. In the end it was determined in that incident that certain individuals didn't gather voter registrations correctly and turned in fradulant/inaccurate data.

The second link indicates the certificate (of the site) is invalid (out of date) ... so I didn't pursue that one further.

The 3rd link actually indicates ACORN taking action before anyone else. Good for them.

Soo... what I'm saying: Thank you for trying to respond with information supporting ACORN trying to do things right on their own initiative.

Pandora wrote:

Spidey wrote:And the point still remains that, ACORN is distrusted by a large part of the public, so the prudent thing to do is not let them have anything to do with the census taking process.

I'm really torn on this. On the one hand I agree. On the other, wouldn't this just mean that the side with the better smear campaign wins?

Pandora, how about this reason. ACORN is definitely an organization with severe bias towards democrat party politics and liberal agenda policy.
They stage protests in bank lobbys to force banks to give mortgages to unqualified borrowers...hello?!...current financial crisis brought to boil due to that exact liberal policy!!!

Why in the world would you want to entrust them with the counting when the results of their counting will empower their party and have a very far reaching effect on assigning voting districts and how policy is implemented for decades?!? I doubt you would support the NRA or the Christian Coalition of America if they were given the job....

It's like asking pedophiles to gather data to update the map of sex offenders.

First of all, sorry for being so late in responding again. Was very busy at work and was kind of avoiding looking at this thread for fear it would totally distract me.

Will Robinson wrote:Pandora, how about this reason. ACORN is definitely an organization with severe bias towards democrat party politics and liberal agenda policy.

Will, i can totally relate to this concern. I think my whole point is that if you want to argue against ACORN, then do it for the right reasons, such as the one you just posted (but my understanding of this census is very fuzzy, so I am not too clear on what damage or bias they could introduce).

TechPro, thanks for the nice and civil response. I know i was a bit testy again in my response to you

With regard to the first link, my understanding was that the Affidavit detailed things happening *before* not after the raid. The reason it was posted was to show that ACORN had already been in contact with the authorities for a long time about the fraudulent registrations (and had initiated the contact and flagged the suspicous registrations).

I'll try to dig up a better link for the second one.

edit: here it is. You'll find a summary and a link to a .pdf showing the original registration cards ACORN submitted, and that the infamous "Jimmy Johns" sandwich shop was already flagged as suspicious by them and also included the name of the canvasser.

The summary wrote:The staff also flagged the Jimmy John's card as fraudulent, attaching a "performance investigation sheet" with the canvasser's name and noting that the name was that of a restaurant. And it shows that the canvasser was terminated the next day. By law, however, ACORN is required to turn in every application they get even if it obviously fraudulent and they turned that card and several more over to local elections officials along with the other documents showing why the cards were deemed to be invalid. The documents also show the same material for several other canvassers in the same office who were fired for similar reasons and whose identities were then sent to elections officials.

It's not real hard to see why a non-partisan body SHOULD be in charge of conducting the census. If a body (organization) has leanings one way or the other, the result of the census could be skewed to where one political entity or the other has a distinct advantage when it comes time to re-district the states.

makes sense, thanks