DescentBB

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Bet51987 wrote:

woodchip wrote:Lets clear this up.

I rather we permanently ignore each other.

Bee

Then stop mentioning me

Hi Betina.
I don't know you, though I have met you in game some few times. I'm Norwegian and conservative. Since Im not American I wont say too much about american politics.

Bet51987 wrote:and I just care a lot for people who have less than me.

This is what troubles me. Are you saying that your opponents do not care about people with less than them self?
I would rater say -both sides want to help, but the solution to attain this goal is different-

I have heard this "argument" since I was a kid, and I must admit, it used to stop all farther discussion back then. Not because it is a good argument, but because it takes an rhetorical advantage of the myth that conservatives are bad and liberals are good.

My question is strightly philosophical, not political.

Regards.
Leon

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Bet51987 wrote:Do I believe that BOTH parties are bad? Yes. They both lie and they both spend money they don't have but I see Democrats being progressive and always changing their values and social attitudes to meet changing times. Their "arrow of time" is forward. Republicans (American conservatives) are frightening. They tend to want to undo that arrow. For example their more concerned with making the U.S. more religious. Rewriting history by changing school textbooks to include creationism, intelligent design, humans riding dinosaurs, and how God hates homosexuals.

I could never be a republican.

Bettina

Become a Pastafarian and join the libertarians, such as Kilarin and myself.

MD-1118 wrote:Become a Pastafarian and join the libertarians, such as Kilarin and myself.

Ah, much as I'd love to see another convert, it wont work.

The essence of Libertarianism isn't about thinking both major parties are bad, almost every third party thinks that. The essence of Libertarianism is small government and larger personal responsibility. Bettina doesn't believe in those goals.

Bettina's political views would probably fit better under the Green Party or one of the other more socialist parties.

What I wish is that people would stop voting for the Democrats or Republicans because they are the "lesser of two evils" and actually vote for a party that lines up with their real political points of view. When you vote for the "lesser of two evils" what happens is that the party you vote for moves further away from the views you want them to have. They already HAVE your vote just based on fear of the other side, so they move closer to the center to try and grab swing votes.

If you want the democrats to move further left, vote green or socialist. If you want the republicans to move further right, vote "natural law" or "tea party". Quit handing your votes to people who don't support your point of view! It never gets you what you want.

What makes you think we want your help?

Man does not live on social programs alone.

Bee to bad a lot of those great social programs don't cover every one. Take the unemployment insurance.

Almost two-thirds of those who are out of work do not qualify for unemployment benefits. The law that created unemployment insurance was passed in response to the Great Depression of the 1930s.

But since then, much has changed in the labor force, including the large numbers of self-employed who are left out of the system.

Most people believe if they're laid off — downsized or simply out of a job — they will get unemployment insurance benefits. While each state has different guidelines on the amount paid and the length of time people can receive benefits, the federal system, created in 1935, simply does not cover the majority of today's workers.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=99170822

With most places hiring only part time works to avoid fed mandates most people don't qualify for Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993

Non-eligible workers and types of leave

The federal FMLA does not apply to:
workers in businesses with fewer than 50 employees (this threshold does not apply to public agency

employers and local educational agencies);

part-time workers who have worked less than 1,250 hours within the 12 months preceding the leave;

workers who need time off to care for seriously ill domestic partners, children of domestic partners or
seriously ill elderly relatives;

workers who need time off to recover from short-term or common illness like a cold, or to care for a family member with a short-term illness;

workers who need time off for routine medical care, such as check-ups.

Social Security, Medicare forget about those

Social Security's trust fund will be essentially used up by 2037 — four years sooner than last year's estimate, its trustees reported. Medicare won't be able to meet its obligations beginning in 2017 — two years sooner than previously projected, the trustees said.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =104062248

Now that I know your age I see why you believe in social movement. I also see you are busy with church I must commend you that, having taken a stance against the evil Republicans that is the way you see them in your mind. I just wonder what kind of weird religion you're into and that you don't want to make america more religious. GOD doesn't hate anyone but the bible clearly say

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

1Timothy 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10: and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

but of course we have some politician that claim to be devote Catholics in Washington thinking it's ok to kill unborn babies.

Did you happen to go to public school?

Thanks for your reply Bet.

Seems you are busy replying questions from left and right here, so I wont make further comments. But who knows, we might get the opportunity one day.

Take care
Leon

Kilarin wrote:What I wish is that people would stop voting for the Democrats or Republicans because they are the "lesser of two evils" and actually vote for a party that lines up with their real political points of view. When you vote for the "lesser of two evils" what happens is that the party you vote for moves further away from the views you want them to have. They already HAVE your vote just based on fear of the other side, so they move closer to the center to try and grab swing votes.

If you want the democrats to move further left, vote green or socialist. If you want the republicans to move further right, vote "natural law" or "tea party". Quit handing your votes to people who don't support your point of view! It never gets you what you want.

Is there any talk about introducing Preferential voting into the American voting system?

Insurrectionist wrote: I just wonder what kind of weird religion you're into and that you don't want to make america more religious.

Bettina is an atheist, but is actively involved in her church. But thats really beside the point. I'm a conservative Christian and while I am certainly in favor of making America more religious, I am highly opposed to making our government more religious. Mingling church and state always works out poorly for both. A quick glance at history proves this quite conclusively.

I think the country is better off when the people know Christ, and when those who govern know Christ. But NOT when the government attempts to legislate Christ. Legislate natural law, yes, religion, no. So yes, Catholics who can vote in favor of abortion baffle me, if they believe it is murder, how can they not try to stop it? Stopping murder IS part of the governments job. BUT, Catholics who vote to allow Baptists and Hindus and Wicans and Atheist to all believe as they wish, and against Sunday laws, and against government sponsored religious displays, etc. THAT makes perfect sense. It is NOT the governments job to enforce religion, and religion is MUCH better off when the government doesn't try. Even the religion that is supposedly being "supported".

roid wrote:Is there any talk about introducing Preferential voting into the American voting system?

Nope, but I can see the advantages.

Another possibility (that is just as impossible):
The house of representatives represents specific regions of the country. The Senate represents specific states, which are just larger regions. There is NO ONE in the legislative branch who represents the country as a whole.

I do not like the parliamentary system, but what if we had a third house. This house has 100 seats. Instead of voting for individual representatives for this house, people vote for a party. Each party must register and submit a ranked listing of 100 names as candidates. Voters vote for the party. At the end of the election, the votes are tallied up, and each party gets a number of seats equal to the percentage of votes it received (with some rules for rounding, obviously).

That means that any party who represents at least 1% of the American public could feel like they had someone in Washington who actually represented their point of view. AND, this house would have NO incentive for passing pork barrel bills. Since the entire nation votes for them, the number of people who would be offended by pork will greatly outnumber the number of people benefited by it.

Kilarin wrote:

Insurrectionist wrote: I just wonder what kind of weird religion you're into and that you don't want to make america more religious.

Bettina is an atheist, but is actively involved in her church. But thats really beside the point. I'm a conservative Christian and while I am certainly in favor of making America more religious, I am highly opposed to making our government more religious. Mingling church and state always works out poorly for both. A quick glance at history proves this quite conclusively.

I think the country is better off when the people know Christ, and when those who govern know Christ. But NOT when the government attempts to legislate Christ. Legislate natural law, yes, religion, no. So yes, Catholics who can vote in favor of abortion baffle me, if they believe it is murder, how can they not try to stop it? Stopping murder IS part of the governments job. BUT, Catholics who vote to allow Baptists and Hindus and Wicans and Atheist to all believe as they wish, and against Sunday laws, and against government sponsored religious displays, etc. THAT makes perfect sense. It is NOT the governments job to enforce religion, and religion is MUCH better off when the government doesn't try. Even the religion that is supposedly being "supported".

Bee wrote: For example their more concerned with making the U.S. more religious

I agree with your statement Bee doesn't clarify Government verses US. She is an atheist didn't know that then why participate in a church setting? Atheist can still do charity (without what the Atheist believe are religious fanatics trying to convert her).

Bet51987 wrote:... Church is taking a lot of my time right now ...

I gotta say, for someone who has repeatedly tried to make it clear just how much you are atheist, you sure spend a lot of time at Church. That seems fairly contradictory with your proclaimed stance.

Are you sure you aren't just "hedging your bets" (in case you're wrong)?

I left it open to someone else, but since nobody mentioned it…

Most of the great social programs, have been double edged swords that have caused as many or more problems than they solved.

Just take one, the minimum wage…It creates unemployment, loss of productivity and inhibits business expansion.

I have all the facts and figures how this works in my business, if anybody wants to know, and I’m pretty sure it works the same way across the board. The largest unintentional consequence of the minimun wage is teenage unemployment.

Everything on that list given has had detrimental affects on society, save a few.

I have more on the others, if you want.

Here’s one, can you guess the cause? Thousands of elderly people left to die alone in the slums, afraid to leave their homes. And un-wed parents…can you guess that one, and its affect on poverty?

I really didn’t want to get into a long debate about the merits of “social programs” but when someone thinks they are the answer to all problems, and define good from evil, something has to be said.

TechPro wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:... Church is taking a lot of my time right now ...

I gotta say, for someone who has repeatedly tried to make it clear just how much you are atheist, you sure spend a lot of time at Church. That seems fairly contradictory with your proclaimed stance.

Are you sure you aren't just "hedging your bets" (in case you're wrong)?

More evidence that maybe she is really a troll?

Bet51987 wrote:Church is taking a lot of my time right now.

Kilarin wrote:Bettina is an atheist, but is actively involved in her church

then Bettina is a liar, hypocrate, deceiver and a fraud. just another reason to not trust anything she says on this BB

roid wrote:Is there any talk about introducing Preferential voting into the American voting system?

I've mentioned it many times in my list of things we should do to repair our system of government, I think I first learned of it here from Mobius. Unfortunately, like many of those steps, you need to get the congress to vote against the best interest of their respective party to enact it and that won't happen until people stop voting based on skimming the talking points of the rhetoric and actually think a little deeper.

Bee is great example of shallow exploration of issues and dogmatic allegiance to the Party line. She sites the congressman who, according to her talking points, "voted against extending unemployment benefits"...well does she know he is in favor of extending them BUT demands the extension be paid for out of the budget and wants to use economic stimulus money already allocated but so far unused to pay for it! No she doesn't and she won't because her Party hasn't 'told' her to know it! The reason for that is they have chosen to use those funds as a sort of political slush fund to buy votes with.

Nothing is getting fixed until we kick some ass at the voting booth. The two Party's are doing their best to scare the voters to one side or the other when we should be united over many fundamental flaws in the way congress operates.
The preferential voting system would help a great deal toward that goal.

CUDA wrote:then Bettina is a liar, hypocrate, deceiver and a fraud. just another reason to not trust anything she says on this BB

I think when you get right down to it she may well be all of those, but first and foremost I think she is terribly confused. I blame her church and her school (not to mention her political peers), though I think in the end we all shoulder the blame for what we choose to believe and why we choose to believe it.

What is this? Rip-Bee-a-New-One day?

CUDA wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:Church is taking a lot of my time right now.

Kilarin wrote:Bettina is an atheist, but is actively involved in her church

then Bettina is a liar, hypocrate, deceiver and a fraud. just another reason to not trust anything she says on this BB

I pray everyday to a god I'm pretty sure doesn't exist.
I guess I'm the same kind of hypocrite. I hope he hears me but don't build my life on a wish. I often wonder if I'm just trying to cover my ass or am justified in my skepticism. I wonder if I'd be hurting my children to push them toward faith or is it the opposite? And there is no unbiased party to turn to with that problem! So I stand with Bee in that respect.

CUDA wrote:

Bet51987 wrote:Church is taking a lot of my time right now.

Kilarin wrote:Bettina is an atheist, but is actively involved in her church

then Bettina is a liar, hypocrate, deceiver and a fraud. just another reason to not trust anything she says on this BB

My pa was a Baptist minister, but even after I reached adulthood, in a time where I didn't have to go to church any more (and was an athiest at the time) I still stuck with the church 'cause they were all still good friends and people I grew up with. Maybe she has a similar situation. You don't have to be a believer to want to be around believers.

DP

AH but there is a difference, Bee is active in her church's worship, she sings solo praises to God before the Church. that in itself is a teaching ministry, so attending church and even having Christian friends is one thing. leading a worship even just a soloists song is quite another.

Titus wrote: 10 For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group. 11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of Crete's own prophets has said it: "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." 13 He has surely told the truth! Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the merely human commands of those who reject the truth. 15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

The same reasoning should fall on all these emo pop bands who actually love themselves and sing about drugs they've never done.

dp

*SilverFJ wrote:The same reasoning should fall on all these emo pop bands who actually love themselves and sing about drugs they've never done.

no argument here, they should be called on it.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:

CUDA wrote:then Bettina is a liar, hypocrate, deceiver and a fraud. just another reason to not trust anything she says on this BB

I think when you get right down to it she may well be all of those, but first and foremost I think she is terribly confused. I blame her church and her school (not to mention her political peers), though I think in the end we all shoulder the blame for what we choose to believe and why we choose to believe it.

What is this? Rip-Bee-a-New-One day?

Yes we should watch what we type we might get SLAPPed

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Bet51987 wrote:There is no loving God of the bible. There are no bets to be made.

then why do you sing praises to him on sundays??????

Bet51987 wrote:

insurectionist wrote: More evidence that maybe she is really a troll?

Cuda wrote:then Bettina is a liar, hypocrate, deceiver and a fraud. just another reason to not trust anything she says on this BB

Yes, I am all of these. Hope you feel better now.

actually no, I dont feel better. it saddens me that you are like this, it saddens me that you or anyone else could act like this to friends, family, and strangers and not feel the least bit of remorse for your actions.

Revelation 3 wrote:I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars. I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

Bee fails to mention she goes to the First Church of Atheism.

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/

You do gotta give it to her for sticking around with all the confrontation.