DescentBB

Kilarin wrote:Your experience is probably not going to be adequate proof for most of us.

Of course it isn't. Reality is completely subjective in that regard. Unless "it" happens to you, it is completely open to skepticism and interpretation no matter how convincingly the tale told or "evidence" provided, and even if it was, there's still no certainty.

Kilarin wrote:Not the most USEFUL answer. "Did so!", "Did NOT!", doesn't really get us anywhere. I see no reason to believe Skyalmain is lying to us about his experience.

This is true.

Kilarin wrote:But that brings us to a problem with experience. Your experience is probably not going to be adequate proof for most of us. Actually, My OWN experience would not be adequate. If I saw a ghost myself, that would not be proof that it was a human soul as opposed to trickery, demonic influence, hallucination, or misinterpreted natural phenomenon.

Ah. And in this case it would be a genetic defect passed from parent to child or someone's playing a Scooby-doo prank, on the family.

One might consider that many things we take for granted today were considered hocus-pocus B.S. not that long ago.

We live in a material world. Material advancement is what is seen as 'real' these days. Don't get me wrong, I am all for it. ★■◆● I make my living making millions of little FET swithes turn on and off millions of times a second. If I had said that a hundred years ago they would have locked me up.

When I was younger everything was black and white, from which I never stray.
As older grows my soul, I just muddle through the gray.

Don't ever assume you know it all, it is a sure sign you don't know ★■◆●.

My mother, back when she was younger, bought a used bed frame. Now she knew nothing about the history of the bed so such knowledge could not have influenced her seeing a man standing in the room. Sometime she would see him in the middle of the day, sometimes she would wake up in the middle of the night and see him standing next to the bed looking down on her. After a couple weeks of this she got rid of the bed frame and never saw the apparition again. Think what you will.

Regardless of the existence or not, one thing is certain - shows like Ghost Hunters are ridiculous. If I actually believed in ghosts, I would be angry with those shows as their \"proof\" is beyond stupid. We live in an age of high-tech gadgets you can buy at your local electronics store and yet these people (same with UFO hunters) seem to only possess cameras from 1997 that barely capture anything except small shadows and odd sounds. Wooptidoo. Yet on each episode they find something \"unworldly\" but professional researchers with high-tech equipment never find anything. Odd.

I believe if there ARE ghosts, they won't show their faces to a bunch of 2-bit ghost hunters with cameras anyway so those shows are just idiocy and it amazes me people believe them.

As for ghosts themselves, I have seen a shadow of a person move across my doorway once when I was the only person home. It freaked me out but it was so quick that I don't know if my mind was playing tricks but I'd be more inclined to believe that even though the event was very vivid.

Having spent 7 years studying neuropsychology, many of these things can be explained away by neurological functions (things like memory, dreams, and de-ja-vu fall under the same category). A lot of 'environments' such as old houses and basements, etc, have certain conditions such as magnetic fields, low light, cold chill, damn air, etc that make people have heightened senses of another presence. It's no different than the Bermuda Triangle. Chemicals, light, and moisture can combine to make for amazing effects and mix that with a sensitive neuro-system and the fact that many people \"want\" to experience these events, they \"exist\" to them.

But maybe there really are ghosts. Who knows for certain? Until the entire world experiences the same event at the same time, people's personal \"experiences\" will always be doubtful, no matter how convincing.

Believe in the certainty of none and the possibility of all.

d0ggY wrote:Regardless of the existence or not, one thing is certain - shows like Ghost Hunters are ridiculous. If I actually believed in ghosts, I would be angry with those shows as their "proof" is beyond stupid. We live in an age of high-tech gadgets you can buy at your local electronics store and yet these people (same with UFO hunters) seem to only possess cameras from 1997 that barely capture anything except small shadows and odd sounds. Wooptidoo. Yet on each episode they find something "unworldly" but professional researchers with high-tech equipment never find anything. Odd.

I believe if there ARE ghosts, they won't show their faces to a bunch of 2-bit ghost hunters with cameras anyway so those shows are just idiocy and it amazes me people believe them.

As for ghosts themselves, I have seen a shadow of a person move across my doorway once when I was the only person home. It freaked me out but it was so quick that I don't know if my mind was playing tricks but I'd be more inclined to believe that even though the event was very vivid.

Having spent 7 years studying neuropsychology, many of these things can be explained away by neurological functions (things like memory, dreams, and de-ja-vu fall under the same category). A lot of 'environments' such as old houses and basements, etc, have certain conditions such as magnetic fields, low light, cold chill, damn air, etc that make people have heightened senses of another presence. It's no different than the Bermuda Triangle. Chemicals, light, and moisture can combine to make for amazing effects and mix that with a sensitive neuro-system and the fact that many people "want" to experience these events, they "exist" to them.

But maybe there really are ghosts. Who knows for certain? Until the entire world experiences the same event at the same time, people's personal "experiences" will always be doubtful, no matter how convincing.

Believe in the certainty of none and the possibility of all.

Nice post. You found the words I couldn't.

I'm willing to believe that there are flaws in the fabric of space, allowing past events to reflect into the present, before I believe in ghosts. I'll believe that photons behave in ways we don't understand to the point where we later find out gamma decay can be delayed by many years to where reflected light gets sent out much later than it should. Or something. Saying, "there are no ghosts, only tricked people", isn't being ignorant; I know there are no ghosts.

What is your final analysis of this document: The Reality Enigma? (Not asking for you to post an answer, just to decide for yourself.)

Isaac wrote:Saying, "there are no ghosts, only tricked people", isn't being ignorant; I know there are no ghosts.

What you haven't told us yet is what is the basis for this belief?

I won't answer... I wont....AAwww too late did!
Their first paragraph is flawed because they assume there is a point to life; there isn't. Life and humans do not matter. We were an accident caused by geology, by a method we aren't ware of. Aside from that, we can't assume anything is real, but we have to play the rules of this game, existence. Therefore, what we see and use exists.

I just saved you £19.55.

Isaac wrote:they assume there is a point to life; there isn't. Life and humans do not matter. We were an accident caused by geology, by a method we aren't ware of. Aside from that, we can't assume anything is real

Philosophically interesting. If you aren't even certain by what method life came to exist, how can you be certain that the results of that method are meaningless?

Kilarin wrote:What you haven't told us yet is what is the basis for this belief?

100% of all ghost images can be picked apart and explained, what the graphic artist did or what the security camera caught. There is nothing on the internet that shows a real ghost. There are no old photographs that show a real ghost. Only exposure or film discrepancies.

There is nothing explaining ghosts in science, other than neurological problems or trickery. Unless you copy the consciousness of a person to a machine, nothing qualifies as a real ghost.

Kilarin wrote:Philosophically interesting. If you aren't even certain by what method life came to exist, how can you be certain that the results of that method are meaningless?

Everything on this planet derives from local or alien geological influence. If nothing does actually exists everything's existence only work in the virtual machine that runs it. So it doesn't matter if reality is real or not, we play by the set of rules we labeled, physics. Mistakenly, as pattern finding machines, we try to figure out why it's all there. We try to find the author of it all, when the truth is, humans are not the reason for the universe. It's the other way around; if humans never existed it would all still be there.

Isaac wrote: Everything on this planet derives from local or alien geological influence. If nothing does actually exists everything's existence only work in the virtual machine that runs it. So it doesn't matter if reality is real or not, we play by the set of rules we labeled, physics. Mistakenly, as pattern finding machines, we try to figure out why it's all there. We try to find the author of it all, when the truth is, humans are not the reason for the universe. It's the other way around; if humans never existed it would all still be there.

Wait..yes I got it... no...maybe...not sure.

I'm really not trying to be troll here. I'm coming off as a little friendly, right?

Isaac wrote:I'm really not trying to be troll here. I'm coming off as a little friendly, right?

Notice he hides his hands....

The way I see it, who the heck would want to spend eternity as an incorporeal Earth-bound spirit hanging around some old building? Hell, you'd think they'd be haunting a titty bar instead.

Good point!

Top Gun wrote:who the heck would want to spend eternity as an incorporeal Earth-bound spirit hanging around some old building?

Gay ghosts are watching you shower.

Kilarin wrote:

Top Gun wrote:who the heck would want to spend eternity as an incorporeal Earth-bound spirit hanging around some old building?

Gay ghosts are watching you shower.

Despite the silliness of these statements, they are actually quite relevant. I found it odd this conversation came up as just the other day I found myself wondering about the "soul" and how people believe that "grandma is looking down at me". As a matter of faith and spiritual uplifting, I admit I think that way sometimes too. But during a long, boring drive in traffic, I started wondering, "is grandma stuck watching me right now?" Then I went further and further beyond a point I, or most people, tend to think. What about Ceasar? What about some farmer 2500 years ago? What about some neanderthal way way back or even some sheepherder from 1591 AD? Who are they watching?! Maybe when they died, they watched over their son. Then their granddaughter. And maybe even their great grandkid. But then what? Even tracing back several centuries, the number of "relatives" would be staggering so wth are these "spirits" doing? Are they spending one day watching each descendant? Some speculate that 0.5% of the men in the world are descendants of Ghengis Khan. So who is he watching?!?!

Anyway, it's all well and good to postulate inane theories but the fact of the matter is, it is nothing more than our own reflective thought that creates any of this. All other animals, as far as we can tell, react reflexively to their environment. Yes, animals plan and can "think ahead", but even these can be explained based on instinctual signals. But as far as we can arrogantly tell, we are the only ones who seem to see "ghosts" and aliens and all this other paranormal activity. It leads me to conclude, albeit without certainty, that our overactive brains simply enjoy playing with "reality".


Oh, and speaking of the article posted which delves into "reality". Have any of you studied Buddhism in depth? I still am most fascinated with the idea of nothingness. I think it's the only 'real' (no pun intended) answer. Perhaps some of you have seen this question drawn on paper:

What is this: hT

the letters 'h' and 'T'?
table and chair?
pixels?
binary code?
a message?

etc etc. Anyone know the answer?
Hint: I kind of gave it away in the previous paragraph.

Life as an accident…

I’ve become more and more convinced that life in the universe is just as inevitable as all of the things required for it to exist.

In other words was iron an accident, or carbon? I’m pretty sure these things came about because of the laws of physics, and not just some random events. (yes, I’m saying I believe the laws of physics led directly to life)

Those first “proto cells” occurred because of the principals behind Murphy’s law. (the real Murphy’s law, not the bastardized version)

I’m finding it harder and harder to believe that the universe spent 14 something billion years creating the conditions for life to exist, and then it just happened by accident.

I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about the subject of life and its meaning of late, and I have come to the conclusion, for the most part…that life itself is the only thing that can give meaning or purpose to anything. (including the universe)

A little religion mixed in there…maybe, but that statement is based purly on a non religious perspective.

I know that’s off topic, so to be fair…I don’t exclude the possibility of ghosts. But you didn’t give me a valid option to vote, so I didn’t. Sorry

Edited

I see your logic and enjoyed the response. I still have to disagree with you.

When people disagree with you…


That’s how you know you’re doing it correctly!!

d0ggY wrote:Despite the silliness of these statements, they are actually quite relevant. I found it odd this conversation came up as just the other day I found myself wondering about the "soul" and how people believe that "grandma is looking down at me". As a matter of faith and spiritual uplifting, I admit I think that way sometimes too. But during a long, boring drive in traffic, I started wondering, "is grandma stuck watching me right now?" Then I went further and further beyond a point I, or most people, tend to think. What about Ceasar? What about some farmer 2500 years ago? What about some neanderthal way way back or even some sheepherder from 1591 AD? Who are they watching?! Maybe when they died, they watched over their son. Then their granddaughter. And maybe even their great grandkid. But then what? Even tracing back several centuries, the number of "relatives" would be staggering so wth are these "spirits" doing? Are they spending one day watching each descendant? Some speculate that 0.5% of the men in the world are descendants of Ghengis Khan. So who is he watching?!?!

Anyway, it's all well and good to postulate inane theories but the fact of the matter is, it is nothing more than our own reflective thought that creates any of this. All other animals, as far as we can tell, react reflexively to their environment. Yes, animals plan and can "think ahead", but even these can be explained based on instinctual signals. But as far as we can arrogantly tell, we are the only ones who seem to see "ghosts" and aliens and all this other paranormal activity. It leads me to conclude, albeit without certainty, that our overactive brains simply enjoy playing with "reality".

True. So I could be watching this show about cavemen and now I hear they could also be watching me watch them. Cool. [/]
*holds up bong*
Whose turn is it?

Kilarin wrote: Gay ghosts are watching you shower.

wth??!!

You scare me....

Yes Duper they are watching you, they have been wondering when you will pull out the Natie Ice, Gamecube and your huge magical black dufflebag of party favors & Axe bodyspray. Go forth and 'Bro it up' with some spectating specters.........