DescentBB

ITT we post pictures of presidents bowing to other heads of state for lulz

When we start seeing presidents and congressmen bow to the citizens I'll be impressed otherwise they all suck no matter what letter beside their name, R or D, makes any of you think you know which ones are better than the others.

All presidents are now measured against Bush…he must be da man!

Top Gun wrote:

ThunderBunny wrote:This sums up the point of this thread:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/c ... ZrCwLsp05M

Obama fails.

Did you...did you seriously just link a New York Post editorial piece as serious evidence?

Forget what I said earlier. You're beyond help.

(And my God, the comments on that editorial. It's so nice to know that our public education system has utterly failed us.)

About as serious as a Huff Po or John Stewart- as many of you seem to take as a "real source" for what passes for unbiased news these days.

...you do realize that the only thing the New York Post has ever been good for is hilarious sports page headlines when one of the New York teams ****s the bed, right? It's a dishrag tabloid that sells itself by making BIG STATEMENTS IN A LOUD FONT. This has nothing to do with Jon Stewart or anyone else. That singular source is garbage, and relying on it for anything resembling nuanced opinion is absurd. Though given your usual utter drive-by style of posting around here, I'm not quite sure you know the definition of \"nuanced.\"

Top Gun wrote:(And my God, the comments on that editorial. It's so nice to know that our public education system has utterly failed us.)

You expect any better results with the government handling Health Care like they did Education?

Heretic wrote:You expect any better results with the government handling Health Care like they did Education?

I think this is a really interesting question. Without a doubt, if education was privatized, the kids of the more well to do would benefit. On the other side, in the poorer communities, I think education would just not exist -- or at least it would exist in a very different form from what we know today.

I think privatization of the education system would solidify the current social class levels, which would lead to an increase in "class warfare". Right now it is very difficult for a kid in a poor community, with poor parents, to "break out" of the cycle he is in. However, I do strongly believe that this country has laid a path for him to do so, should he be naturally motivated to undertake such a task. If education was privitised, I think it would be impossible for the child to ever compete with another kid whose parents could afford high quality education.

I think this is analogous to health care. I do think the net result is that our peak health care abilities will decrease---or at least not accelerate as fast as they would otherwise--in order to increase the average levels.

I think health care is a bit more delecate, because in one instance you are talking about peoples lives, and in the other you are (often) talking about peoples future.

I do think it is the Governments responsibility to do its best to create and promote an equal playing field for all children.

Private education would only fail if you needed to have education insurance. There is no way education at the first and secondary levels needs to be expensive.

Government mandated education and some help for the poor is all that is needed, we now have a system where the middle class send their children to private schools…and still have to pay for other peoples education as well, and of course the well off can afford anything they want…that never changes.

You’re comparing apples to oranges (in a direct analogy)…the two systems are failing because of different reasons…but government is the root cause of both.

I'll grant you the educational system, but just out of curiosity, how has the healthcare system up until this point failed because of government action when lack of said action can be seen as the root cause of some of its most egregious problems? We've already seen that, left to its own devices, the healthcare industry is perfectly happy to deny coverage to people with pre-existing conditions, or put yearly caps on coverage for sick children, or kick kids off their parents' coverage the hour they graduate from college. If government exists to serve the governed, it sort of makes sense for government to step in when the governed is getting royally screwed. I'm not saying what passed is the ideal solution, but it should be obvious to everyone that the previous system was about as flawed as it could be.

What I think is most interesting about Goober's example is that the current public educational system is entirely non-profit; I'd wager that the majority of private schools (I can certainly attest to Catholic schools) aren't exactly drawing in money either. In contrast, the current healthcare system is entirely motivated by profit. Kind of makes you wonder.

So you're saying that the government mandate to treat everyone no matter what didn't have a thing to do with failing health care? It is a baldfaced lie that citizens in this country do not have access to health care because of this mandate. Even non citizens have access to our health care system. It is the people who don't pay that causes others to pay more just like in the housing crisis, it's the people not paying their way causing that all the problems because of government mandates. Government controlled Education failing, Government controlled post office failing, Government controlled housing failing, and Government controlled health care will be failing also.

And finally, Nixon bowing to Hirohoto.

Heretic wrote:So you're saying that the government mandate to treat everyone no matter what didn't have a thing to do with failing health care? It is a baldfaced lie that citizens in this country do not have access to health care because of this mandate. Even non citizens have access to our health care system. It is the people who don't pay that causes others to pay more just like in the housing crisis, it's the people not paying their way causing that all the problems because of government mandates. Government controlled Education failing, Government controlled post office failing, Government controlled housing failing, and Government controlled health care will be failing also.

Um...America's healthcare system was in dire straits long before the recent attempted reforms. As far as mandated care goes, are you essentially saying you disagree with the concept of hospitals not being able to provide life-saving care just because their patients may not have insurance? So what, would you rather see people die in the street if they can't foot an ER bill?

Also, the federal government has comparatively little to do with how local districts run their schools, or how much money they have available to do so, and the post office is losing money because people don't really need to send the vast majority of physical mail that they have over the past two centuries. Any other "stupid gub'mint" straw men you wish to erect?

(Man, null, are you lifting these things off of BowingPresidents.com or something? )

The biggest problem with the postal service is that it can't lay workers off under contracts with its employee unions.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_off ... contracts/

Top Gun wrote:

Also, the federal government has comparatively little to do with how local districts run their schools, or how much money they have available to do

So would you agree we could eliminate the federal Dept. of Education as being useless and a good way to help cut the federal deficit?

Why is it when you mention the “government” some people only think it meant the federal government?

State and local government are also screw-up machines.

woodchip wrote:

Top Gun wrote:

Also, the federal government has comparatively little to do with how local districts run their schools, or how much money they have available to do

So would you agree we could eliminate the federal Dept. of Education as being useless and a good way to help cut the federal deficit?

Honestly, I'd probably go along with that, or at least with curtailing its responsibilities significantly, except for the fact that it's apparently a rather minor department anyway, and ditching it wouldn't exactly do all that much to help the deficit. I do think that, in terms of direct educational oversight, its policies are far better served when controlled on the state and local levels. I strongly believe that standardized tests are just about the worst way to measure actual student comprehension and progress, and I don't see the point of imposing them on poor inner-city and affluent suburban districts alike, which is why I'm very suspicious that programs like No Child Left Behind really accomplish anything. At the same time, though, the Dept. of Education does oversee programs like federal student loans for college, and lord knows I think that's about the last thing that needs to be curtailed. Maybe we'd be better off if that was almost their only function.

(Fun fact: The Republicans were big on attempting to abolish the Dept. of Education as a Cabinet-level position during the 80s and 90s but weren't able to get it through. Apparently no one gave Bush the message when he set up NCLB. )

Spidey wrote:Why is it when you mention the “government” some people only think it meant the federal government?

State and local government are also screw-up machines.

Given that the vast majority of "big bad gub'mint" sentiments are targeted toward the Feds, it generally makes sense to view it that way.

And do you have anything besides anecdotal evidence to establish that, or is it just more of the same "the government sucks" nonsense? As I've seen pointed out multiple times, most people are all for the idea of calling government at any level screw-ups and wanting to curtail it until you start talking about individual services...at which point, the message changes to "Take your hands off my Medicare!"

Top Gun wrote:...the comments on that editorial. It's so nice to know that our public education system has utterly failed us.)

It was never our public education system, so technically it's not a failure. :)

null0010 wrote: