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flip wrote:Well first thing anyone here should know about me by now is I'm a plain speaker.[..] How do you explain away the spiritual aspect of life that almost everyone admits to, and yet reconcile everything down to mathematics? (dirt&rocks;)

Down to earth but "dirt & rocks" = "mathematics" ? Got me fooled there for a minute However, I don't remeber talking about that either.

W/o defining what you mean by "spiritual" you question doesn't make sense to me.

dirt, rocks and mathematics=physical, tangible

spiritual=things not easily explained by: See Above. Otherworldly. A word used to express those things not understood but for which there is evidence nonetheless.

That's as simple and plain as I can get it. I hope at this point you've guessed where I was going with my original statement. If so then maybe you will just answer the question. Online forums require a little more insight than usual to be an effective discussion medium.

flip wrote:dirt, rocks and mathematics=physical, tangible

spiritual=things not easily explained by: See Above. Otherworldly. A word used to express those things not understood but for which there is evidence nonetheless.

That's as simple and plain as I can get it. I hope at this point you've guessed where I was going with my original statement. If so then maybe you will just answer the question. Online forums require a little more insight than usual to be an effective discussion medium.

Sorry, I don't make a destinction betw. what you would call mathematics or physics and I would call spiritual. I don't have a spiritual aspect to my life (or see one in others life) that "needs explaining away." If you want me to explain away what you think is spiritual in your life you still 1. need to be more specific and 2. probably wont get a satisfying answer because our world views don't align to each other. Since IMHO everyone is entiteled to their opinion I usually try to find out how they came to their conclusions instead of trying to "explain them away" and point at holes if I see any.

I have stated this before: everyone needs to find their own spiritual take on life. Whatever others come up w/ is fine w/ me -- as long as they don't try push these views onto others w/o allowing space for own thought.

My appologies for the derailment. Seems to happen sometimes

Since IMHO everyone is entiteled to their opinion I usually try to find out how they came to their conclusions

I feel exactly the same way and that is is exactly what I asked.

Whatever others come up w/ is fine w/ me -- as long as they don't try push these views onto others w/o allowing space for own thought.

I know we've had more than one of these discussions. Find one where I've disrespected someones else's views or belittled anyone's beliefs. All the way from 2005-6 I bet you will not find one occurrence. I ask what others believe and state what I believe and why. Simply, with resolve and not too much emotion. It just simply baffles me how many people, maybe you maybe not I don't know , still believe in the unseen and have a sense of things beyond their understanding , and then make arguments about origins without making consideration of ALL of their own beliefs. Piecing it together without regard for some key pieces. Whatever anyone else comes up with is fine with me too, especially to uphold American ideals, I'm only gonna get about 7-8 hours sleep over it . Here's the thing though. My belief in God makes your belief in alternate universes possible. Your disbelief of God makes my belief in a spiritual world impossible.

flip wrote:My belief in God makes your belief in alternate universes possible.

Really? How so?

To use a popular Christian term, wouldn't the assumption of only a single universe be "putting God in a box" (i.e. placing arbitrary limits on God's power and even His creativity)?

flip wrote:Your disbelief of God makes my belief in a spiritual world impossible.

If I understand Grendel correctly, he is using 'spiritual' as simply that which is unexplained. There's no requirement to believe in God in order to have a sense of spirituality.

Really? How so?

To use a popular Christian term, wouldn't the assumption of only a single universe be "putting God in a box" (i.e. placing arbitrary limits on God's power and even His creativity)?

??? thats what I just said here:

My belief in God makes your belief in alternate universes possible.

flip wrote:Your disbelief of God makes my belief in a spiritual world impossible.

Ah, I misread. My apologies.

Heh, done that a few times myself.

EDIT: In all honesty Christians must believe in at least 3 "alternate universes",for lack of a better word, that span space and time.

flip wrote:

Since IMHO everyone is entiteled to their opinion I usually try to find out how they came to their conclusions

I feel exactly the same way and that is is exactly what I asked.

You jumped to conclusions and used them as base for your question. Easy to do (and that includes me) but it is sort of disrespecting people in my book

flip wrote:It just simply baffles me how many people, maybe you maybe not I don't know , still believe in the unseen and have a sense of things beyond their understanding , and then make arguments about origins without making consideration of ALL of their own beliefs. Piecing it together without regard for some key pieces.

What baffles me is the ignorance in people, refusing to acknowledge accepted facts or research their own and integrate them into their belief (hm, sounds like I just rephrased your statement ) Guess it's easier to be told what to think. A convinient carte blanche called religion that fills a void in peoples minds quickly.

"Knowledge is power" but only as long the knowledge checks out. Interestingly that seems to be a key reason for the arrested development of most religions. Admitting to be wrong or even revising the "truth" will take away power. Since religion is based on "faith" it'll get away w/ just minor amendments.

flip wrote:Here's the thing though. My belief in God makes your belief in alternate universes possible. Your disbelief of God makes my belief in a spiritual world impossible.

So many questions, so little time Here's a quick one -- why do you need a god ?

Meaning=Choice?

There are two windows; one dark, one light.
There is a reflection of the lit window within the dark one (but there is a curtain mostly drawn).

edited out stupid answer...

First off Grendal my question is a legitimate one. You can paint it whatever color you want but it was a genuine and fair question. I've made no conclusions because they would have been based on the answer you just provided. I find asking a fair question much less disrespectful than being patronizing and condescending( the bulk of your argument)

as long as they don't try push these views onto others w/o allowing space for own thought

Since religion is based on "faith" it'll get away w/ just minor amendments.

No it takes at least as much faith to believe what your proposing, otherwise this discussion would be even more meaningless and empty than it already is. The discussion quickly diverted from a simple question to "why even answer simple questions asked by ignorant people." That was the real derail. That question was in direct opposition of your viewpoint and instead of hardcharging it, you tuck tail and hardcharge me instead.

I stand by this to be a true statement:
Quote:
My belief in God makes your belief in alternate universes possible.
flip wrote:
Your disbelief of God makes my belief in a spiritual world impossible.

I don't think that science is in opposition to the belief in God at all. It's not a matter to me of need, it's a matter of if it's true or not. There's enough evidence to suggest a "spiritual world" exists. Your in the minority big time to not at least go that far. Challenge my statement, as long as we are clear what 'spiritual' means at this point. Wouldn't want to con volute things further.

Oh yeah. It was just one question . Nothing to shy away from.

Let's roll back. My statement that ignorance will be enough to believe that "created the heavens and the earth" brushed you the wrong way. THAT was the real derail. Condescending ? Look back: "Lol, so your imaginations are superior to my imaginations."

As for the initial question: "Where does the metaphysical fit in with just rock and dirt as your imagination implies?" Let me reqhrase that: "Where does the metaphysical fit in with just rock and dirt as your imagination implies to me?" Answer: I don't know. Where I'm at there is no spiritual problem.

I'm not proposing any believes, I didn't say that science is in opposition to the believe in god. And yes it's a matter of need. It's the basic motivation in humans, fullfilling needs. Minority ? Who's patronizing now ?

You didn't answer my question... Gotta go, sorry.

Heh, where's my MD at >: ). It's all good Grendal, These kinda discussions are always tiresome unless the person agrees with you.

I quite literally had to leave, hence the short post. I'm fine w/ letting it rest tho, I prefer having these kind of discussions face to face over a drink at a LAN party.

It's a nice picture. Anyone who doesn't like it is just a hater.

I prefer having these kind of discussions face to face over a drink at a LAN party.

Hah I feel exactly the same way. With a little good luck and God willing there may be at least one more Descent Lan. I know me and Warlord were discussing a lan here in ATL not too long ago over the phone. He has an inside line on some hotels that makes a lan a real possibility, but I'm up for some travel in the 48's too . I'd feel like I lost something if I died without making at least one descent lan.