DescentBB

Oh yeah, I forgot your a monkey boy that's good at calling people on stuff. Must be some kind of conditioning. Just because our beliefs differ doesn't mean you have a full grasp of understanding either, but i love the fact that for the last 5-6 years your arguments have consisted of "uh, no, that's not what they said." and "your an idiot." Jury's still out brainiac. Disprove creation or prove evolution. Until then you just look like a simpleton that believes everything he wants to.

Is it ok if I talk that way Ferno, or does that upset your sensitive nature?

The phrase "Pavlov's dog" is often used to describe someone who merely reacts to a situation rather than using critical thinking.

The point of my analogy. It sucks when it feels like the mods are the actual trolls on this board.

[EDIT]: LOL Meaning you Ferno

flip wrote:Is it ok if I talk that way Ferno, or does that upset your sensitive nature?

no, but it doesn't do much to impress anyone with your argument in support of the existence of God and the validity of religion.
Generally, I read these exchanges and just laugh, because folks are debating BELIEF, which isn't debatable, it's personal. What does strike me is that you, and others, at times get WAY too defensive for foks with unshakable faith. Just sayin'.......

callmeslick wrote:What does strike me is that you, and others, at times get WAY too defensive for foks with unshakable faith. Just sayin'.......

Built-in persecution complex. Programmed in a seriously Pavlovian way through the doctrine and surrounding culture. So much for free will.

No it's only Ferno I got the hots for, he has a certain history of derail and flaming. That was a newspaper roll across the nose, in real life, I'm much kinder to the daft.

EDIT: And I suggest before anyone accuses me of a lack of restraint or great patience, to read ALL my posts for the last 5-6 years. Ferno finally got under my skin by suggesting my beliefs are based in foolishness and superstition because I must lack a high school education. Like he always does. Nothing of substance, he never tries to understand what someone is saying , he stays completely out of debates and only comes in to say someone else's opinion is stupid. LOL, so now I feel persecuted because Ferno constantly goes out of his way to be an ass.

well, when I see a bad analogy using quite terrible understanding of something that's being used, i call people on it. Yours is particularly terrible to the point where I don't even know where to start.

Start right here then re-read what I wrote and we can get back to our discussion.

The phrase "Pavlov's dog" is often used to describe someone who merely reacts to a situation rather than using critical thinking.

Oh and Slick, we are not debating the existence of God, we were debating on

Is the morality of a deed inherent, or is its morality determined by God (God said this is immoral, so it is)?

And my answer was to specifically address why I thought it was inherent by demonstrating how responses are conditioned. Do something you feel bad about, you feel bad. Do something you feel good about, you feel good. Now, how did we get to this point in this thread?

You Have a nasty habit of denigrating someones response or comment here. Do you do this in real life or are you so diminutive that you can only talk like this in the obscurity of the internet?

Shut up Slick , you and I know this was just an opportunity to criticize me for something you constantly do. LOL.

but Flip, if you are debating God's inherent role in morality, are you not also either debating or conceding the existence of God?
I, for one, don't buy into the whole God concept, but damn, it's fine if you do. Accepting that, however, precludes any way of resolving a question between us, or likeminded types, as to whether God created morality or some such.

To remain on topic, my view of morality is that it has evolved over time, and exists as a sort of societal code to keep total chaos from breaking out. In the same sense, I view those ends as the purpose of religion and the establisment of religions over time.

oh, and Flip.....I think you are nearing your allowed limit of Razz and Wink smilies in this thread.

Heh, I say morality is inherent despite my beliefs as to why. It's the typical knee-jerk reaction you get from non-believers. I myself believe WHY it is inherent is because of design, my opinion. The reason it IS inherent is because of Pavlovs dog's, observable. I can't help you guys can't separate your personal beliefs from a logical discussion.

flip wrote:Heh, I say morality is inherent despite my beliefs as to why. It's the typical knee-jerk reaction you get from non-believers. I myself believe WHY it is inherent is because of design, my opinion. The reason it IS inherent is because of Pavlovs dog's, observable. I can't help you guys can't separate your personal beliefs from a logical discussion.

I disagree, and my reasons are separate from the existence of God, I suppose, as well. I still can't believe you are dodging the reality that much of the rest of this thread boils down to God and Divine direction vs. Development of Humankind.

I think that much of the influence that religon has had on the development of mankind hasn't had anything to do with the faith itself, but the evil men who use and distort it to manipulate the masses for power.

I still can't believe you are dodging the reality that much of the rest of this thread boils down to God and Divine direction vs. Development of Humankind.

Buncha hard-heads. I've not tried to dodge anything. Of course that's what it boils down to. The trick is to be objective. Plus at the moment we are discussing just one aspect of the development of humankind. They, over all other animals in this world have developed a sense of morality and the free-will to choose. Why?

flip wrote:Heh, I say morality is inherent despite my beliefs as to why. It's the typical knee-jerk reaction you get from non-believers. I myself believe WHY it is inherent is because of design, my opinion. The reason it IS inherent is because of Pavlovs dog's, observable. I can't help you guys can't separate your personal beliefs from a logical discussion.

Your labeling of those that don't have your beliefs as "non-believers" right there is a put down. Everyone has their own "beliefs", even if they don't believe in same God you do. That does not make them "non-believers". Just because others don't believe in your religion, that's not a reason to denigrate others for their differing beliefs. Typical of most religious people, you're either a "non-believer" or "infidel" if your not part of the "correct religion" and thus deserving of your scorn. You may not be in the right after all. Faith is not reality.

Lord Jesus Christ. I'm sorry if i offended you TC. Wasn't my intention at all. I'm an imperfect and flawed human being, just like the rest of you. Can we now get back to the question at hand or not. I have tried like hell to keep it an open discussion without putting anyone down for thinking we evolved from monkeys. I have simply stated certain facts and THEN, for clarity only, I explain how they fit into my belief system. For anyone who cares to ask. This derail is not mine and I'm sorry for hurting anyone's feelings. Ferno, I love you man. Now again, why?

development of humankind. They, over all other animals in this world have developed a sense of morality and the free-will to choose.

flip wrote:They, over all other animals in this world have developed a sense of morality and the free-will to choose.

Well actually, as more and more research is done it's starting to look like 1) many animals are capable of the "higher" decision-making we used to attribute only to humans and 2) we don't have as much free-will as we would like to believe. Neither of those things bother me though, in fact, I think it's pretty cool.

We're talking about morality, not decision making and as far as free-will goes, no explanation needed. Everybody knows what free-will is.

flip wrote:We're talking about morality, not decision making and as far as free-will goes, no explanation needed. Everybody knows what free-will is.

ITell me, did you consciously exercise your free will today by making the moral decision not to kill someone? I'm assuming you didn't kill anyone today or any other day. Why not? Is it because the impulse was not there? Where do these impulses come from and why do some people have them and others don't? Of those who have impulses to harm others, why can't some control them even though they have god-given "intrinsic morality" and "free will" (for example, people who suffer from mental illness)? And while we are at it, why would a god create a human with retardation so severe they can't understand the bible and god's word?

I'm sure there are a few bible verses you can chuck at me to clear this all up. Neuroscience ain't got nuthin' on bible-science.

Why? WHY WHYEEEEEE? Exactly. Lol, you have no answers either and your prejudices prevent one from being found. Now I'll be up all night damnit:P. Nothing I've said yet has came from the bible, but it doesn't contradict the bible either.

flip wrote:you have no answers either and your prejudices prevent one from being found.

I find plenty of answers to life's mysteries through skeptical reasoning and scientific inquiry. They might not be absolute answers, but they are categorically better than "god did it." To me, the default religious answer takes all the joy and mystery out of the universe and makes life mundane, and even depressing.

I just like to talk dude. If someone convinced me evolution was true and be the biggest hell raiser you ever met till I died a young death I like TC have to concede to some greater power. Science and the precarious balance of EVERYTHING convinces me of the same. If we were in real life, this would be a conversation filled with laughing and good-natured ribbing. Just a meeting of the minds and a sharing of ideas. I learn from everyone.

flip wrote:

The phrase "Pavlov's dog" is often used to describe someone who merely reacts to a situation rather than using critical thinking.

The point of my analogy. It sucks when it feels like the mods are the actual trolls on this board.

[EDIT]: LOL Meaning you Ferno

then i suggest that you should read up on the Pavlog's Dog experiment then.

EDIT: And I suggest before anyone accuses me of a lack of restraint or great patience, to read ALL my posts for the last 5-6 years. Ferno finally got under my skin by suggesting my beliefs are based in foolishness and superstition because I must lack a high school education. Like he always does. Nothing of substance, he never tries to understand what someone is saying , he stays completely out of debates and only comes in to say someone else's opinion is stupid. LOL, so now I feel persecuted because Ferno constantly goes out of his way to be an ass.

you give me too little credit. but that's okay. I read a lot more of this forum than you think, and only if I find something interesting (or absurd) only then do I poke my nose in and razz you about it. you're just remembering the razzing. on the other hand, you still have yet to demonstrate a higher-than-high-school level of understanding.

No, truth be told my understanding is fine. Your just a little ★■◆● about everything.

Here's a start: God didn't make man; man made gods.

Grendel was some kinda made-up monster bogyman. He just happens to post on this BB from time to time.

Lol, you guys are too damn insecure in your beliefs to even have a discussion of them. It's all good. I laid out a very small amount of a foundation of my beliefs, what did I get in return? Anytime you actually want to have a conversation I'm up for it but I've got a pretty good handle on things at this point .

ThunderBunny wrote:Grendel was some kinda made-up monster bogyman. He just happens to post on this BB from time to time.

Must be that laid-back disease that affects only Corvallis residents. I haven't caught it, yet.

flip, not everyone is secure in their beliefs. You may be perfectly happy with what you believe in, good for you, but others may not be so sure. Some of us have to come to terms that we don't really know the answers to a lot of questions about human existence or the presence of a God. You, as well as CUDA, are very comfortable with Christianity, others with Islam or Buddhism. That's not a deficit. The problem comes in when one faith denigrates the faith, or non-faith, of another. Christians go on faith that they're right, while Islam goes on faith that Mohammed was right. Faith is too rigid and inflexible. When one faith comes to the conclusion that they're in the right, and if history proves anything, they'll usually fight to prove it, which means wars tend to happen. Right now, both Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all headed for some type of showdown that I find absolutely ridiculous and counterproductive to human survival. But how does one fight against someone's else's faith, when it's so tied with emotion and not fact? You can't.

I for one consider myself an Agnostic. I have no faith, only questions and guesses. I'm actually comfortable with that. I like to find science fact and reasons for human existence and I'm just naturally skeptical about the existence of a supreme being, but I also don't rule it out either. Humans and the whole ecosystem we live in seems far too complicated to have arisen from almost nothing but a chemical soup of proteins and water. It could have happened, but who knows. This naturally raises questions about evolution, but it doesn't rule it out as a driving force in nature either. Maybe if we could all keep open minds and not stick to rigid faith, we might have more respect between the myriad religions and non-believers of the world.

But sh*t, I'm asking for too much, ain't I?

Heh, I dunno TC, I agree with everything you've said there and respect it fully. I feel as I'm about as unorthodox as you can get without actually being stoned by the church so I think alot of this is transference of a stereotype onto me. I am secure in my beliefs and I appreciate your honest answer, but what I believe is no more foolish than anyone else's and if given enough time without provocation also makes a reasonable theory. Like you said, total accident is betting way against the odds.

flip wrote:No, truth be told my understanding is fine. Your just a little ★■◆● about everything.

says the guy who just demonstrated a terrible example of human biology. try again.

Again I feel compelled to remind people that evolution is not an "accident", its so deliberate you could call it an act of god with a will behind it if you wanted to. They don't call it "natural selection" just because it sounds scientific.

Get it Monkey Boyeeee!

I know why it's so hard to have an intelligent conversation around here. You fuckers are illiterate. LOL

Again I feel compelled to remind people that evolution is not an "accident", its so deliberate you could call it an act of god with a will behind it if you wanted to. They don't call it "natural selection" just because it sounds scientific.

No one was talking about evolution. I'm pretty sure me and TC both were referring to Intelligent design over total chance.

Flip, I think the thing that's frustrating Ferno is that a few of us have explained a number of concepts to you multiple times in the past, but they don't seem to have ever sunk in. The fact that you keep using phrases like "evolved from monkeys" exemplifies this...that isn't how things work at all, and I know I've gone through that at least once in the past. And I'm not really sure where you're getting the idea that people are insecure in their own belief systems, because I'm not seeing much of that at all in here.

Another illiterate that misses obvious sarcasm.

I know what it is, it's because there's no pictures.

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en ... 29,r:7,s:0

Here's an easy one. Look at this chart and see if you can pick out which one most resembles a monkey.

flip wrote:Another illiterate that misses obvious sarcasm.

Wait, and you complain about other people throwing around insults? I know what sarcasm is, and "I have tried like hell to keep it an open discussion without putting anyone down for thinking we evolved from monkeys" isn't it.

Lol man, you guys are hard-headed. It's all good.

Lol, well it was either my weak attempt at sarcasm or your inability to discern which. Are the pictures helping any?

Flip

Matthew
11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave.
12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting.
13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you.
14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.
15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

like I tell my Kids, you cannot beat someone into believing