DescentBB

tunnelcat wrote:Me thinks your resentment is misplaced.

No resentment at all. I just dont like the whole Robin Hood mentality. and I dont like the lies that the Democrats are spreading that the Republicans want to give tax cuts to the rich. those tax cuts went into place for everyone and have been in place for 10 years. you are either raising taxes on small business owners and the rich or you are maintaining them. you are not giving them tax cuts. stop lying.

what happened to the Democratic party???

It's 3%.

Those "tax cuts" were passed on reconciliation and need to be rescinded, maybe for everyone. No one wants to cut defense spending so therefore no one is really serious about lowering government spending. Every single other program is piddles compared to the massive, bloated defense budget. It should be cut in 1/2, and then 1/2 again and we'd still have more in defense spending then everyone else.

I support the military, but it's just starting to get ridiculous. It's an industry, like any other, that has grown too big and needs to be downsized. We don't need troops in 127 countries, we don't need those new stealth destroyers, we don't need that joint strike fighter, we don't need any of that. If people looked at the defense complex with a discerning eye, those "tax cuts" could be saved and maybe the deficit would start slowing down. But until we get the trillion dollar pig to stop eating, everything else is moot.

Unemployment insurance, Headstart, NEA, and all those other things are insignificant amounts of money compared to what they spend on defense.

Every single other program is piddles compared to the massive, bloated defense budget.

while I agree in part with some military spending cuts, the military is not the largest portion of the budget.


for fiscal year 2012

Medicare/Medicaid is 23% @ 835B
SS is 20% @ 725B
Military is 19% @ 700B
and
Discretionary is 18% @ 646B

and the worse part is the 227B we spend on interest every year. maybe we should cut the deficit and save 227Billion every year. that WOULD BE the fiscally responsible thing to do

TC is EXACTLY right, CUDA. The poor in the US pay a massively disproportionate amount of their income in taxes and fees. Simply not having to pay more via income tax doesn't make up for high state fees(most have shot up big-time in the past 10 years), gas taxes, payroll taxes, local taxes of many sorts, etc. Think about it, CUDA.....I think you are the sort of man who wouldn't really support this BS that gets spouted as conservative gospel if you look at the overall picture. Is it really your vision of America that the rich, and especially those with inherited wealth get off with a miniscule tax burden while the rest get hosed, most of all those with the least income or resources?

Oh, and the fiscally responsible thing to do? Stop fighting wars we don't fund on borrowed money and raise the taxation levels to a point where the bills are all paid. Frankly, the numbers you cite for military spending are but the tip of the iceberg.....those are the publicly available figures. Most national security spending is secret and off the books. The last thing the society needs is to cut the social benefit programs, as you would end up incurring massive costs around the social unrest that would result.

What would happen if every wealthy business owner decided to leave America and set up shop somewhere else?

callmeslick wrote:TC is EXACTLY right, CUDA. The poor in the US pay a massively disproportionate amount of their income in taxes and fees. Simply not having to pay more via income tax doesn't make up for high state fees(most have shot up big-time in the past 10 years), gas taxes, payroll taxes, local taxes of many sorts, etc. Think about it, CUDA.....I think you are the sort of man who wouldn't really support this BS that gets spouted as conservative gospel if you look at the overall picture. Is it really your vision of America that the rich, and especially those with inherited wealth get off with a miniscule tax burden while the rest get hosed, most of all those with the least income or resources?

personally I don't care about the state tax issue. that has nothing to do with the federal deficit now does it. this discussion is about the Federal government. lets not try to cloud the discussion. the FACT is 51% do not pay federal taxes. and it is the Federal government where the problem lays, most state and city governments are reasonably solvent or are getting there. the Fed is making no attempt to correct it's failings

Oh, and the fiscally responsible thing to do? Stop fighting wars we don't fund on borrowed money and raise the taxation levels to a point where the bills are all paid. Frankly, the numbers you cite for military spending are but the tip of the iceberg.....those are the publicly available figures. Most national security spending is secret and off the books. The last thing the society needs is to cut the social benefit programs, as you would end up incurring massive costs around the social unrest that would result.

AH yes that's much more fiscally responsible then things like Solyndra and 26$ a gallon fuel for our Navy ship instead of the $3 we were spending, or the money we sent to Finland so they could develop and build cars to sell here in the US. yes those small sample of examples are MUCH more fiscally responsible

flip wrote:What would happen if every wealthy business owner decided to leave America and set up shop somewhere else?

with a proper trade tariff system, they would quickly be replaced by folks making their product here. Plus, the taxation issue really isn't(as some would have you believe) about business owners. Its about folks who work as executives at large corporations(publicly traded, so LOTS of owners) and foks who are enriched largely by finance(either in the financial trade or investing wealth that is, in vast degree, inherited). Those classes of citizens pay a minuscule fraction of their annual income in taxes and fees compared to someone making, say, $25,000 per annum.

CUDA wrote:[the FACT is 51% do not pay federal taxes

I have to call that statement what it is: a lie.
Remember, there are gas taxes, excise taxes,payroll taxes, social security taxes along with the income tax. Virtually everyone in our society pays some of those, directly or indirectly. Don't be so stupid as to buy the BS that just because 50 percent pay zero federal income tax that it means they contribute nothing to the costs of government. It simply is not true.


Oh, and comparing a few hundred million to try and re-establish solar manufacturing in this country to the trillion dollars spent on two useless wars shows how little regard you have for an actual truthful debate. Wasn't it you whining about just such a dearth of sincere debate a few days ago? You can do better than that, CUDA, or is it down to merely regurgitating right-wingtard talking points for you, too, now?

Well, I'm against this Robin Hood mentality too. If someome inherits a great deal of money and invests it wisely, good for them. There is nothing preventing someone else from learning the system, disciplining themselves and then wisely investing their money. There is still a great deal of opportunity here for someone willing to do the hard work and educate themselves. I'm completely against what Obama is trying to do by creating this sense of "fairness." Life is not fair and the spoils should only go to those willing to make the necessary sacrifices. He is not totally off-base either, but the way he presents it makes people want to sit back on their butts for handouts and feel like they are owed something. He might have the right idea but his methods are gonna be divisive and destructive.

callmeslick wrote:

CUDA wrote:[the FACT is 51% do not pay federal taxes

I have to call that statement what it is: a lie.
Remember, there are gas taxes, excise taxes,payroll taxes, social security taxes along with the income tax. Virtually everyone in our society pays some of those, directly or indirectly. Don't be so stupid as to buy the BS that just because 50 percent pay zero federal income tax that it means they contribute nothing to the costs of government. It simply is not true.

which, if i'm not mistaken. can all be written off as business expenses.

callmeslick wrote:

CUDA wrote:[the FACT is 51% do not pay federal taxes

I have to call that statement what it is: a lie.
Remember, there are gas taxes, excise taxes,payroll taxes, social security taxes along with the income tax. Virtually everyone in our society pays some of those, directly or indirectly. Don't be so stupid as to buy the BS that just because 50 percent pay zero federal income tax that it means they contribute nothing to the costs of government. It simply is not true.

51% of Americans Pay No Federal Income Taxes
By Derek Thompson

May 4 2011, 9:05 AM ET 122

Half of American tax payers owe no federal income tax, and most of those filers actually net tax benefits from federal income taxes, according to analysis from the Joint Committee on Taxation in a letter to the Republicans on the Senate Finance Committee.

so who's the liar?
I never said they weren't paying any taxes.
I'm sorry that I left out the one word "INCOME" since I was careful to say that exact word in my previous post, because I knew you'd twist what I said about this because you've done it before.
I'm sorry that you chose to ignore that just so you could twist what I posted to make yourself feel better.
I'm sorry you feel the need to play word games.

At the same time, there are Americans -- millions of them -- who really do pay practically zero overall taxes. About fifteen million American households, or 10 percent of all taxpayers, receive more cash from the IRS than they contribute in federal income taxes and payroll taxes. That's thanks to "refundable credits," tax credits that can bring your tax bill into negative territory. To some, these 15 million are low-income Americans benefiting from smart and targeted welfare run through the tax code. To others, they are unacceptable free riders, citizens with a vote but no stake in federal government.

I'm sorry you can't see this and wish to perpetuate the Democratic distortion of the facts.

I'm sorry the Democratic party has lost it's way. i'll refer back to my JFK Video

Oh, and comparing a few hundred million to try and re-establish solar manufacturing in this country to the trillion dollars spent on two useless wars shows how little regard you have for an actual truthful debate.

i'm sorry your reading comprehension is lacking when I said it was a small sample of the waste in our Government.
I'm sorry that you are reverting back to the democratic tactics of "BLAME BUSH' cant your man stand on his own??? sure bush screwed up. too bad you cannot admit the same about Obama

Wasn't it you whining about just such a dearth of sincere debate a few days ago? You can do better than that, CUDA, or is it down to merely regurgitating right-wingtard talking points for you, too, now?

yep I was, still am. I also said.

I've come to the conclusion that most here don't wish to have a discussion or even a vigorous debate. their sole want is to trash others regardless of what is said. they make no attempt to be civil in their debates. they make personal attacks incessantly, and really add nothing to the discussion except for their willingness to degrade and abuse their fellow board members. I guess it's easy to act tough behind a monitor.

and what were the first things and the last things out of your mouth?

that I lied, and that I'm a right-wingtard. that added such value to the discussion didn't it

thanks for contributing to the cesspool

flip wrote:Well, I'm against this Robin Hood mentality too. If someome inherits a great deal of money and invests it wisely, good for them. There is nothing preventing someone else from learning the system, disciplining themselves and then wisely investing their money. There is still a great deal of opportunity here for someone willing to do the hard work and educate themselves. .

sure, they do. The playing field is ever so level.......yeesh, you really have no clue, do you?

CUDA, first I said you were seemingly regurgitating 'rightwingtard' BS, not that you were one. In fact, I was implying that I think you are smarter than that. Then, you go repeat the same nonsense, and conveniently leave out the effect of both fees and excise taxes, which both hit the poor hard. Sure, if someone isn't working, they don't pay payroll tax and yes, some folks at the lowest end of the scale get IRS checks which outweight their payroll taxes, but they don't avoid excise taxation(gasoline, tobacco, alcohol, a range of other products). What is so wrong about a system that attempts to extract the cash from those who can best afford it in our society? I don't understand your ire. I, for one, don't resent paying what I do, and might be somewhat unique in feeling I ought to pay a higher share. This will no doubt dredge up the 'just write a check, Slick' comments, but I want to see the rules set up so that we all are playing the same game.

It's interesting to consider that, at one time, the entire US government budget was funded by alcohol taxation, essentially. That was the case right up to Prohibition(and changed for obvious reasons).

"Diligent hands will rule but laziness brings forth slave labor."

That's all I have to remember Slick. I'm pretty much guaranteed a good life if I invest properly and make the right decisions now. I'll leave world conquest to the dime a dozen .

So what should everyone invest with? Maybe I'm missing something here, someone born into a poor and broken family has what exactly to invest?

CobGobbler wrote:So what should everyone invest with? Maybe I'm missing something here, someone born into a poor and broken family has what exactly to invest?

Their mental and physical abilities.

flip wrote:"Diligent hands will rule but laziness brings forth slave labor."

That's all I have to remember Slick. I'm pretty much guaranteed a good life if I invest properly and make the right decisions now. I'll leave world conquest to the dime a dozen .

but Flip, what about the(millions of)people who haven't a spare dime to invest, and can make all the 'right' decisions they want to and will not only remain poor, but whose situation is getting worse at a steady rate? I am stunned how many people are under the delusion that there is some sort of viable path to upward mobility in the US today. That horse left the barn 100 years ago.

snoopy wrote:

CobGobbler wrote:So what should everyone invest with? Maybe I'm missing something here, someone born into a poor and broken family has what exactly to invest?

Their mental and physical abilities.

this nation is full of intelligent and able bodied folks who are sinking, steadily toward poverty. Would you deny that, and why?

They have to make sacrifices. Quit spending thier money on beer and cigarettes and plan for the future. If necessary, pick up and move to where the economy is growing. Where there is a will there is a way. I have just paid off all my debt, and left most my balances at 33% to build my credit score faster. I am also going to start purchasing 5 year $500.00 CD's at 3 month intervals. I enrolled in adult education classes and going to college. In 5 years, I will start investing in the Stock Market. You gotta have plans and then make them happen. Some people are just stupid, or fools like I have been most their lives. They should go hungry and suffer until they get a grip and figure out how things work.

callmeslick wrote:

snoopy wrote:

CobGobbler wrote:So what should everyone invest with? Maybe I'm missing something here, someone born into a poor and broken family has what exactly to invest?

Their mental and physical abilities.

this nation is full of intelligent and able bodied folks who are sinking, steadily toward poverty. Would you deny that, and why?

I'm making the point that there are extremely few people who genuinely have nothing to work with.

I'll also agree with you that there are a lot of people here in the US who are having a harder and harder time keeping up. I also think that I have a lower standard for "poverty" and "needs" than most of the American people, so while I think people's standard of living is falling, I'm not ready to say that it's destined for poverty in the majority of cases. I've seen real poverty, where people are worried about getting their next meal & don't waste a penny.... I can tell you that there isn't much of that here in the U.S. Getting on social security so you can afford to have your nails done (true story) is ridiculous. Not being to pay your electric bill when you've got a 50" flat screen running all the time is silly, too.

flip wrote:Some people are just stupid, or fools like I have been most their lives. They should go hungry and suffer until they get a grip and figure out how things work.

Absolutely true (so was I).

Some people might find that statement offense, but you could put it in a different light by saying that unnaturally sparing people the natural necessity of learning how to conduct themselves in such a way as to cultivate prosperity is not in anyone's interest--it's not in society's interest!

flip wrote:They have to make sacrifices. Quit spending thier money on beer and cigarettes and plan for the future. If necessary, pick up and move to where the economy is growing. Where there is a will there is a way. I have just paid off all my debt, and left most my balances at 33% to build my credit score faster. I am also going to start purchasing 5 year $500.00 CD's at 3 month intervals. I enrolled in adult education classes and going to college. In 5 years, I will start investing in the Stock Market. You gotta have plans and then make them happen. Some people are just stupid, or fools like I have been most their lives. They should go hungry and suffer until they get a grip and figure out how things work.

Think you could do all that with a wife and several kids in tow? And have you looked a the return a $500 CD will give you? Around 1 percent or so, give or take, a return of about 5 bucks. So if you get a 1% yield and inflation stays up at 2 or 3%, and it may go higher, your money will lose value. You might as well stuff your money under the mattress, you'd get about the same return and it would be just about as safe with the way the banks treat our money now.

Romneyhood. The rich making their millions on the backs of the working poor.

Yeah, I have a wife and 4 kids myself. That was the biggest mistake I made, having all my children young. The oldest 2 are just about grown. DONT have kids until your established, why make ★■◆● harder than it has to be? Aside from that, yes the rates on CD's are low right now at 2%. I'm still shopping around, but I intend for my wife's income to cover every payment and then some gain every month. I will also seek credit only for a business this next go around. $10000.00 5 year CD's at 5% sound alot more attractive ,except for the tax issues. Maybe, I-bonds, they are not subject to state and local taxes and federal taxes can be deferred for 30 years . I'm definitely open to suggestions but my ultimate goal is to have money to invest in the Stock Market, we already have a pretty good retirement plan through my wife's work.

I'd suggest TIPS, Inflation protected treasuries, but the rates for those are pretty much in the tank right now too. The only other thing I can think off are dividend stocks. If you could buy some company stock that pays around a 4% dividend, you might do better, if you want to risk the market that is. But the banks right now just don't pay squat anywhere. Tightwads, and Bernanke.

Speaking of Bernanke, if the Fed God decides in September to eliminate the 0.25% interest rate the Fed is paying on bank reserves, the banks might get into a snit just to screw over Obama. How? By pissing off their customers and sticking them with MORE FEES to make up for those lost profits. The kicker is that the banks are sitting pretty on all that cash right now and NOT loaning much of it out to stimulate the economy. A double screw over for Obama. I recently got a notice from my bank saying that they might start charging me a fee on my now free little checking account in the future. I wondered why they'd want to piss off their customers with more fees until I read this article.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... olutionary

Those SOB's are going to loan me some money, out of sheer exasperation if necessary I have an idea though. Total Yard Care. Start off just cutting grass but also being able to build fences, storage building, limb removal and landscaping if desired. Hell, I made a killing as a kid doing that and working on my own dime.

flip wrote:They have to make sacrifices. Quit spending thier money on beer and cigarettes and plan for the future. If necessary, pick up and move to where the economy is growing. Where there is a will there is a way. I have just paid off all my debt, and left most my balances at 33% to build my credit score faster. I am also going to start purchasing 5 year $500.00 CD's at 3 month intervals. I enrolled in adult education classes and going to college. In 5 years, I will start investing in the Stock Market. You gotta have plans and then make them happen. Some people are just stupid, or fools like I have been most their lives. They should go hungry and suffer until they get a grip and figure out how things work.

not to crap on you, but really. 5 year CDs? At what rate of return? In five years, you may jump into the market? How old are you?
You should have been buying in late 2008 into 2009, not now, let alone 5 years out(who knows what the real situation is). I am not picking on you out of meaness, but you serve to illustrate my point and would do really well not to call others 'stupid' economically.
Good move going back to college, but the rest? Sorry, you aren't doing much better than if you loaded up on beer and smokes....

flip wrote:Those SOB's are going to loan me some money, out of sheer exasperation if necessary I have an idea though. Total Yard Care. Start off just cutting grass but also being able to build fences, storage building, limb removal and landscaping if desired. Hell, I made a killing as a kid doing that and working on my own dime.

I don't know about Texas but there must be a couple dozen companies in this PA region that do the same thing, and likewise down in Virginia. If you can develop a well-to-do clientele of good size, you can make a go of it. If I were your banker, I would want to see serious proof of how you would do so, and out-compete your competition.

One poster above had very good advice: Dividend bearing stocks. Financials, Chemicals, Pharma are all good. Now, you just passed a really good 4 year window for capital appreciation(My bank stocks purchased in 2008/2009 are up 225% over purchase prices, on the average), but the rate of return is far better than a CD, and as a cap gain, is taxed at only 15%

Honestly Slick, you prove my point quite well. This is plan's in motion, it has evolved even much further today than from yesterday. It's all about what you want out of life. I want an education and freedom and I will have them both. You would make slaves of all of us.

I don't know about Texas but there must be a couple dozen companies in this PA region that do the same thing, and likewise down in Virginia. If you can develop a well-to-do clientele of good size, you can make a go of it. If I were your banker, I would want to see serious proof of how you would do so, and out-compete your competition.

One poster above had very good advice: Dividend bearing stocks. Financials, Chemicals, Pharma are all good. Now, you just passed a really good 4 year window for capital appreciation(My bank stocks purchased in 2008/2009 are up 225% over purchase prices, on the average), but the rate of return is far better than a CD, and as a cap gain, is taxed at only 15%

Yeah that's the best thing about yard-care. The banker can kiss my arse, I don't need him . As far as financial advice goes I'm willing to accept any and all, but right now I'm concentrating on 2 things. Education and building capital.

flip wrote:Honestly Slick, you prove my point quite well. This is plan's in motion, it has evolved even much further today than from yesterday. It's all about what you want out of life. I want an education and freedom and I will have them both. You would make slaves of all of us.

...maybe I'm reading things wrong, but that's the exact opposite of what slick is doing here.

not to crap on you, but really. 5 year CDs? At what rate of return? In five years, you may jump into the market? How old are you?
You should have been buying in late 2008 into 2009, not now, let alone 5 years out(who knows what the real situation is). I am not picking on you out of meaness, but you serve to illustrate my point and would do really well not to call others 'stupid' economically.
Good move going back to college, but the rest? Sorry, you aren't doing much better than if you loaded up on beer and smokes....


_________________

Yeah we are reading it differently. I read it as defeatist type bull★■◆●.

...except in the very next post, slick gives you some alternatives to the plan you stated, ones that he thinks will give you a much better rate of return. There's nothing "defeatist" in pointing out potential issues and providing a different option.

........................

but Flip, what about the(millions of)people who haven't a spare dime to invest, and can make all the 'right' decisions they want to and will not only remain poor, but whose situation is getting worse at a steady rate? I am stunned how many people are under the delusion that there is some sort of viable path to upward mobility in the US today. That horse left the barn 100 years ago.

It's all under this guise. I said thank you for the financial advice.

flip wrote:Honestly Slick, you prove my point quite well. This is plan's in motion, it has evolved even much further today than from yesterday. It's all about what you want out of life. I want an education and freedom and I will have them both. You would make slaves of all of us.

how so, and I like your job and education plan.....just tried to steer you away from the economic/investment part.

I wish Flip well, but would like to return to the statement he objects to. Is there anyone on this board who doesn't agree that the potential for upward mobility or for the sustenance of a large, comfortable middle class which can afford to live, educate their next generation and retire well before death, has declined steadily over the past 25 years or more? If so, show me anything to support your opinion.