DescentBB

Will Robinson wrote:

tunnelcat wrote: .. All I'm pointing out is what usually happens in American society. People like their freedoms, to do what they want when they want, but then people seem to like to relegate their failures to the public sphere like a community garbage can. ..

People are being told to blame others instead of being shamed for not taking personal responsibility. There is a whole industry devoted to creating and trading that rationalized excuse for dogmatic support. It is called progressive/liberalism.

That's actually a start. The Scarlet Letter approach. Now if it actually worked on people who didn't give a damn about what other people thought about them or the way they raised their kids.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:You keep using the word "perfect". Perfection has nothing to do with it. I think you might be mischaracerizing the problem. Just because the last few generations have gone a certain way, doesn't mean you can separate the result from various social ideas, and political/artificial economic influences and call it the norm for humanity. People are actually very good at surviving, naturally, and if you take away the poisonous influences (welfare, government child support for single mothers which encourages them to stay single) which prop up unnatural, unhealthy, stifled situations, and on the other hand hold them to just and fair legal prosecution (death penalty for your neighborhood murders), and provide a source or sources of good teaching/training for responsible adulthood (private sector/volunteer/charity/church), and manage to remove the **** ideas filtering down from Hollywood and the political and media upper-echelons about the **** up 21st century family where parents don't have time to raise their rebellious children so the wackos in public education and the kids own peers do it, then you have the makings of a recipe for success regardless of the level of personal perfection they manage to achieve.

ST, there are always going to be those children who are "rebellious". THAT'S human nature and THAT'S why every generation fights the previous generation, especially their parents. You are not going to change that behavior. Sure, we can get rid of the welfare state that coddles the lazy ones, but families will always have this particular problem in one form or another, because that's the evolution of each new generation. As for parents that don't take the time to actually raise their kids, who's fault is that? Sure, maybe some are lazy and self-centered and don't take the time to do their jobs, but a lot of the time, both parents work full time and don't have the time in the first place. My divorced single mother worked hard to make a living and had to stick me and my sister in daycare and depend on public school during the day because she HAD TO, just to make ends meet. It was either that, or stay in a marriage with a philandering husband she loathed. She choose to be a single parent.

The influence of popular culture is a whole other issue. These companies and personalities make A LOT money off of that popular culture, movies, TV, music, so how do you put the brakes on something that makes a fortune off of our kids that's so influential and potentially bad? You're back to that bad old government trying to regulate the content of what our kids watch and see everywhere, so rightly, the parents NEED to do the job. Most of the time, they're too self-absorbed to care about what their kids are doing and watching, and they usually take extreme exception to others telling them they are doing a "bad" job at parenting.

TunnelCat wrote:ST, there are always going to be those children who are "rebellious". THAT'S human nature and THAT'S why every generation fights the previous generation, especially their parents.

I'm afraid it's a lot more than that at this point. Rebellion has become an encouraged part of our culture. It didn't used to be so hard to find someone who at least showed respect to people that are older than them, and especially their parents. I'm sure almost every child goes through a stage where they feel like their parents are failing to address or understand their concerns and issues, but to lay abject and glorified rebellion at the feet of universal and age-old misunderstanding or parental miscommunication just doesn't hold water. It's a cultural issue for certain.

What would you guys say if you heard it was television that lead to bad behaviour?

TunnelCat wrote:It was either that, or stay in a marriage with a philandering husband she loathed. She choose to be a single parent.

Another worsening cultural issue. Human relations is absolutely ****ed in our day. An awful lot of people get together for all the wrong reasons. Also that's where CUDA's personal responsibility argument may be leveled at your father for his contribution to this avoidable problem. Believe it or not feminism may have a hand in some of that activity as well. There's a large amalgamation of screwed up ideas built atop the barely discernible, correct idea that women should not be mistreated by men.

And I don't mean to be insensitive. I'm sorry to hear it.

TunnelCat wrote:As for parents that don't take the time to actually raise their kids, who's fault is that?

It's an idea's fault. It's the parent's fault. And it is exacerbated by the social engineering perpetrated by our government, and in their mismanagement of the economy, exporting jobs, and driving the cost of health-care up.

Ferno wrote:What would you guys say if you heard it was television that lead to bad behaviour?

I'd say television is a stream of ideas that if not controlled could degrade any developing mind, and rob the developed minds of precious life (time). There are a lot of bad ideas on TV. A person could be out of touch with reality by watching too many TV shows. Also I have personally noticed that people without understanding (stupid/unintelligent) are encouraged to have pointless fights/quarrels because of the way it is glorified on sitcoms.

Ferno wrote:What would you guys say if you heard it was television that lead to bad behaviour?

Too general a question

Sergeant Thorne wrote:

TunnelCat wrote:ST, there are always going to be those children who are "rebellious". THAT'S human nature and THAT'S why every generation fights the previous generation, especially their parents.

I'm afraid it's a lot more than that at this point. Rebellion has become an encouraged part of our culture. It didn't used to be so hard to find someone who at least showed respect to people that are older than them, and especially their parents. I'm sure almost every child goes through a stage where they feel like their parents are failing to address or understand their concerns and issues, but to lay abject and glorified rebellion at the feet of universal and age-old misunderstanding or parental miscommunication just doesn't hold water. It's a cultural issue for certain.

Oh Gawd! Same old gripe! This is an age old problem. EVERY generation has fought the generation before it. I can remember when my parents whined about that long hair, sex and drugs and rock and roll, and my grandparents who complained about that black jitterbug music and suggestive jazz. Even our country was founded on rebellion. It's in our blood. You can't purge it, nor do you want to.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:Another worsening cultural issue. Human relations is absolutely ****ed in our day. An awful lot of people get together for all the wrong reasons. Also that's where CUDA's personal responsibility argument may be leveled at your father for his contribution to this avoidable problem. Believe it or not feminism may have a hand in some of that activity as well. There's a large amalgamation of screwed up ideas built atop the barely discernible, correct idea that women should not be mistreated by men.

And I don't mean to be insensitive. I'm sorry to hear it.

Philandering is an age old problem too. It's not new. Men, and women, have done it throughout time. But I think the feminist movement wasn't all bad. It gave many women the strength to leave a bad marriage and achieve a life and career on their own. Before, they were stuck in an abusive marriage because it was expected of them. Why is that bad, to have self-direction? Either way, the kids suffer. It's best if people find a mate that they will trust and love forever. It's too bad that doesn't always work out.

Your parents and your grandparents were right, and you didn't manage to even go back far enough to make an argument. Also this country was founded on something a little nobler than rebellion against authority.

Ferno wrote:What would you guys say if you heard it was television that lead to bad behaviour?

Television is a mirror of ourselves. 'It' doesn't lead to anything. We lead, it delivers our message.

Television is an idea amplifier.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:Your parents and your grandparents were right, and you didn't manage to even go back far enough to make an argument. Also this country was founded on something a little nobler than rebellion against authority.

Does it matter the reason for the rebellion? Do all rebellions have to be noble? No. My only point is that our rebellious nature is a permanent part of our American psyche. We all come from that pioneering stock that craved freedom, self-determination and exploration. Don't you think some of that is maybe a little inborn or even passed on to every generation just by the actions of each previous generation? The continuing fight over gun rights is a perfect example. By the way, not even the beginning of the American Revolution was quite so noble. In fact, some of it's downright petty, cutthroat and dirty.

http://www.nps.gov/jame/historyculture/ ... ellion.htm

If you were to go back in history, you would find all sorts of examples of the younger generation rebelling against the older generation. Here's one theory, cycles.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/07/1 ... f-manhood/

So you would equate the rebelliousness of children against parents, or children against any authority figure with the rebellion against unjust, overstepped authority of a monarchy? Your "American Psyche" is a quaint theory, but it glazes over important distinctions. I don't know what your upbringing was like, but whenever I was rebellious growing up I got a whooping for it. That didn't stifle my spirit as an American, it kept me back from becoming a fool who felt that all authority was open to whatever judgment I felt like passing on it in my ignorance. The bible tells us that "foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child". Children do not have a fully developed grasp of reality. There is a word for someone who has no respect for anyone with more experience--a "fool". And the whole situation is complicated by the fact that many people in our day don't have a clue when it comes to parenting. If a person's idea of being a parent is simply imposing their will on their children merely because it's their right as a parent, then IMO they're inviting rebellion. A parent has a responsibility to oversee the proper development of a child--to train a child and prepare them for the responsibilities and difficulties of life. If they're not doing that, then maybe they are King George...

The end of the matter for me, is that the rebelliousness that has become so prevalent among young people is destructive. It's destructive to their development, and destructive to society in general. It also retards the progress which could be taking place from generation to generation--parents and grandparents passing on wisdom to young people to enrich their own lives, to build on, and to pass on again.

You're now officially part of the "old generation" ST. Live with it.

I rebelled against my parents, but I never broke the law nor did anything illegal. But I wanted to live my life my own way. Oh, they tried to lead me, or persuade me, to live my life the way they wanted, but it didn't work. I found my own path and they eventually acquiesced because it was too much trouble to fight it. Even after all that, things turned out for the best for both of us. The key, as you pointed out, is respect. One can be rebellious and still be respectful about it.

But the term, "Respect your elders" has been around for ages. It seems that young people today are sowing their wild oats just like we did when we were young, as has happened to each previous generation before it. Do you think they're getting more disrespectful about it now? Perhaps you're right. But I am an old fart, so I may be biased.

http://www.yaliberty.org/posts/the-resp ... rs-fallacy