DescentBB

Well, now we know the identity of the whistle blower. A "private contractor" with a conscience I guess, who thought he was doing the public a favor.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... rveillance

We'll see just how scary things are when/if we find out the ultimate fate of the whistleblower.

If he suddenly disappears, has an 'accident' or other 'unfortunate' thing- he really pissed some big people off and rule of law has no bearing. In other words, we're in deep crap too.

If he's prosecuted and tried for breaking his word (non-disclosure contract, government secrets, etc,) then we'll know there's some kind of way to walk-back this thing and the leaders involved have some kind of humanity and/or respect for the American people (however little.)

He did go to Hong Kong. He must think he'll safer there. If he does "disappear" mysteriously, that will tell us volumes about how far our "democratically elected" government will go to silence those who dissent against what they do "for our safety" in secret. I don't know which is worse, the terrorists, or the government protecting us from those terrorists. And all this spying did nothing to stop that maniac in Santa Monica who killed six people, some at random.

I just saw this:

http://www.wnd.com/2013/06/military-tol ... ndal-news/

Just...wow.

"Nothing to see here! Move along! These aren't the CIA droids you're looking for!"

Hi, I'm totally not an NSA agent. carry on

ThunderBunny wrote:I just saw this:

http://www.wnd.com/2013/06/military-tol ... ndal-news/

Just...wow.

"Nothing to see here! Move along! These aren't the CIA droids you're looking for!"

EEEEEEK! Guess we can't have military personnel seeing what it's government's doing to it's citizens. They just might not follow orders when the merde hits the ventilateur in some revolution we foment.

It depends on who's in power at the time. When the other guy does it, it's bad, when your guy does it, it's good.

http://blogs.marketwatch.com/election/2 ... veillance/

ThunderBunny wrote:I just saw this:

http://www.wnd.com/2013/06/military-tol ... ndal-news/

Just...wow.

"Nothing to see here! Move along! These aren't the CIA droids you're looking for!"

While is not good news, I’m a bit amused that this kind of “outrage” isn’t being expressed over the military clergy getting a worse form of censorship that FAR outstrips any violation of Constitutional rights indicated in this article.

Interesting development. Thanks TB.

A little more of the tip of the iceberg has been exposed...

Those private companies that are providing our data to the government are also receiving data from the government!

We have the separation of church and state and it seems, now more than ever, we need a separation of corporate and state. Where before it was obvious that corporate/big business was infecting our electoral process and legislative results with its lobbiest, now it is more than just the number one outside influence. The government has become assimilated.

I was naive to think of corporate influence as scratching at the opening trying to get more than a nose inside the tent
The idiots in government think they got them to give up the data reluctantly....frikken fools...the data was a big wooden horse that was wheeled right through the gate that the government opened willingly!

There is no politician or beauracrat alive who can stay unaffected by the data mining therefore no one is above influence and extortion by the 'Company'. And with that data in their hands it will soon be 'The Company' and government will simply be it's public relations department...

Seems you're right. Corporate shmoozers and butt kissers. Congress obviously doesn't even care enough about the people they "supposedly" represent to go to the briefings about this matter. Jerks.

http://news.yahoo.com/majority-senate-s ... 10067.html

Benjamin Franklin wrote:They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Will Robinson wrote:I was naive to think of corporate influence as scratching at the opening trying to get more than a nose inside the tent

Its ok, corporate influence over government has basically taken refuge in audacity as its means of hiding itself anymore. AT&T/Verizon/Comcast write telecom law for their own benefit, the MPAA+Disney and the RIAA and the publishing industry write copyright law for their own benefit, the privately owned prison industry writes much of the criminal code for their own benefit, and most law makers are also lawyers which is why you can't do anything without a lawyer anymore, the list just goes on and on. You just didn't notice because you were too busy raging against United Auto Workers and other unions for doing pretty much exactly the same thing from the opposite side of the coin.

I saw corporate influence in government over the regulation of so many industries and to such a huge extent that I started to question my own sanity on the subject sometimes, the worst part about being paranoid is when it turns out to be absolutely correct and true.

Just did a DBB search for PRISM and came to this thread, to say that this PRISM thing really rustled my jimmies.
I've been pondering how to completely disconnect these ★■◆● companies from my life since i first heard this PRISM stuff. Including Google. ★■◆● you Google how could you do this.
Just ★■◆●ing ★■◆● you ★■◆●ing companies ★■◆● how could you do this, we trusted you, ★■◆● you.

If others are as mad as i am about this mess, America's entire internet business is going to take a hit as customers leave American based cloud companies in droves and swarm into overseas cloud companies instead. Companies that weren't sucking this NSA spiggot the whole time without so much courtesy as an anonymous leak to their client base as part of a feeling of obligation and duty-of-care.

And you know what? How long did it take for this PRISM ★■◆● to come out, for us all to have proof. TOO LONG, that's how long. Nothing is safe, how long is it gonna take for proof of the CURRENT always-on surveillance on overseas servers to come out? Are we in that middle-time now, where it's constant and everpresent but we still don't have proof of it? Is that how we'll look back on this time, with amazement of how naive we all were?
★■◆● you internet, i'm so gonna go Permanent PGP on all communications, and TOR for accessing everything always forever, and leave you behind in my fart ★■◆● dust. aSDFASKLDRJQWR$KL@#J$@

as far as i can tell all of you Americans came outof this easy, how do you think the rest of the world is taking this? Remember - the current American spokespeople have come out in damage control assuring AMERICAN CITIZENS that they are not being spied on - the prism program is only for collecting information on FOREIGNERS, american citizens are protected (apparently, as if anyone believes that anyway, but moving on...). Well the 6.66 billion people who make up the rest of the ★■◆●ing planet are hearing that and are like.... oh ok well that makes us feel so much better that America has just announced that they use major USA based companies as an open slather to collect as much information as they can on absolutely everyone who's not an American - because ★■◆● you planet earth, American citizens are the only ones we need to not ★■◆● all over.
I mean... we're sitting here stunned... they're not even TRYING to deny it. All of my GMAIL contents, and god knows what MS Windows NSA backdoors on my personal computer, and oh also my Android powered mobile phone how wonderful, are completely 100% open to any American spook to read for fun, profit and trade. THEY DON'T EVEN ★■◆●ing BOTHER TO DENY IT.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOU
AMERICANNNNNNNNN
BUSINESSSSSSSSSSS
- yours sincererly, the 6.6 billion people on this planet who aren't American citizens.

our governments are taking this seriously
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28s ... _countries
you dun fucked up, you did, you dun. you did dun fucked this din up.
International Allies, what are those? nope. NOPE-NOPE-NOPE-NOPE-NOPE-NOPE-NOPE
HELLO EJECT BUTTON

callmeslick wrote:flips agreement with the bunkum I just refuted shows a core problem in the US, which can be seen as directly responsible for the governance we get, at times. The population, or great chunks of it, simply believe notions that are CLEARLY and PROVABLY false. They have little knowledge of history, little awareness of the true facts around current events, and little interest in anyone pointing out the errors in their viewpoint. Thus, you get a populace which is increasingly difficult to lead anywhere productive.

Yes.

And again i'll say i don't know how you can stand it slick, you have more patience than i, or perhaps yours is the patience i once had. The rock-headed spastic clowns on this forum fueled my misanthropy for years (and oh look they're prettymuch all still here spamming the same old predictable red vs blue bull★■◆●. haha look at them trying to type things i'll read). Over the years my only hope on the matter has been is that i'm never sure if it's been a DBB thing, an American thing, or a Humanity thing.
Not sure what the point of this place is.

Oh ? Sounds like you haven't heard about Tempora. Being a software eng. since the late 80s I never doubted that there isn't such a thing as free/unmonitored data exchange. Server owners always have access to the data and will use it or being forced to surrender it by governments. Yes, you can use encryption and you can try to hide behind TOR, fact is that you need to be aware of what your data exchange profile is and how it could be (ab)used. I The good thing about proving to the world that the snooping is very real -- nobody can deny this anymore and has to be more conscious about where and how their data is stored and used.

what i feel so betrayed by, is that those "Server owners [who have] always have access to the data" never saw it fit to anonymously tip off the rest of us that they actively witnessed this ROUTINELY happening.
Such a secret, such a conspiracy, it gives one pause.
Where does it leave this previous source of comfort: "Conspiracies always come out, it's impossible for so many people to keep a secret."
Coz this secret was kept for a long time by a ★■◆● lot of people. I just don't know anymore.

FROM THAT ARTICLE wrote:..."However, on Friday a source with knowledge of intelligence argued that the data was collected legally under a system of safeguards, and had provided material that had led to significant breakthroughs in detecting and preventing serious crime."....

..... i can't even respond, even labeling this vomit inducing response from this ★■◆●ing intel toad as an "argument" seems itself designed to induce sudden rage triggered aneurisms in the sane.
HEY YEAH LETS JUST HAVE BRAIN-TAP SURVEILLANCE OF EVERYONE, NO MORE CRIME EVER YAAAAAAY, THIS PROGRAM IS SO WONDERFUL

pondering smashing any Google Glasses i see, as an appropriate and legally defensible response to discovery of a foreign nationalist surveillance device.

ps: ★■◆● you google did i mention that

Roidy, I don't think the red v blue crowd here disagrees with you at all. Problem here is what are you going to do about it? For myself I never got a facebook/twitter/instagram etc acct. I guess I never felt the urge to show the world what my thoughts are unless of course you read them here. All we can hope is there are so many trillions of databits that searching out individuals information might not make it worth the effort.

That the internet is not a safe place is a axiom that has been around for years and to be all of a sudden put in a panty wad huff about it just shows how little you thought the axiom was true. Well to George Orwells once and future world.

I say make yourself noticed and speak in the kings ear.

The saga continues...

roid wrote:And again i'll say i don't know how you can stand it slick, you have more patience than i, or perhaps yours is the patience i once had. The rock-headed spastic clowns on this forum fueled my misanthropy for years (and oh look they're prettymuch all still here spamming the same old predictable red vs blue ****. haha look at them trying to type things i'll read). Over the years my only hope on the matter has been is that i'm never sure if it's been a DBB thing, an American thing, or a Humanity thing.
Not sure what the point of this place is.

I'm a fisherman, for sport, so patience is a given.

"President Barack Obama signed an executive order giving the Department of Homeland Security the ability to shut down all of the United States' communications systems upon his request. Barack Obama laid out a statement he titled "Assignment of National Security Emergency Preparedness Communications Function". No doubt a very confusing title. The reasoning behind his issuing of this executive order, is that he feels the government may one day need to access all of our telephones, computers, cable communications, etc., in the name of nationaI security,

According to Obama, the items of confiscation, or shut down can include: wireline, wireless, satellite, cable, broadcasting, internet, and other key information systems. Never in United States' history has a president given himself the authority to shut down the entire nation and immobilize the citizenry."

callmeslick wrote:

roid wrote:And again i'll say i don't know how you can stand it slick, you have more patience than i, or perhaps yours is the patience i once had. The rock-headed spastic clowns on this forum fueled my misanthropy for years (and oh look they're prettymuch all still here spamming the same old predictable red vs blue ****. haha look at them trying to type things i'll read). Over the years my only hope on the matter has been is that i'm never sure if it's been a DBB thing, an American thing, or a Humanity thing.
Not sure what the point of this place is.

I'm a fisherman, for sport, so patience is a given.

You have to love it...someone joins a discussion board, then complains that there are discussions going on...but their real point is...I hate your different opinions, and I'm going to have a hissy fit to prove it.

Spidey wrote:

callmeslick wrote:

roid wrote:And again i'll say i don't know how you can stand it slick, you have more patience than i, or perhaps yours is the patience i once had. The rock-headed spastic clowns on this forum fueled my misanthropy for years (and oh look they're prettymuch all still here spamming the same old predictable red vs blue ****. haha look at them trying to type things i'll read). Over the years my only hope on the matter has been is that i'm never sure if it's been a DBB thing, an American thing, or a Humanity thing.
Not sure what the point of this place is.

I'm a fisherman, for sport, so patience is a given.

You have to love it...someone joins a discussion board, then complains that there are discussions going on...but their real point is...I hate your different opinions, and I'm going to have a hissy fit to prove it.

not his first time.

although quoting me, I assume you are not referring to ME as the complainer, right fellas?

Correct

Spidey wrote:Correct

+1

whoa.. I just read that quote.

Talk about hate language. I think the term "truculent" applies there.


I really don't think that the Pres wields that kinda power and certainly not the power to bestow it on others on self discretion alone.

I read the quote as dealing with 'shutting down' communications, not intercepting. And, without going into details, I can see scenarios, albeit extreme and unlikely, where it would be in the national interest to do so, and cannot imagine anyone save the President making such decisions.

The only way I can see that scenario playing out is a large group of people locked in a room arguing like cats and dogs. No way our form of government ever intended one person to possess such power alone. The worst idea ever conceived was Executive Orders, it throws the whole system out of balance.

flip wrote:The only way I can see that scenario playing out is a large group of people locked in a room arguing like cats and dogs. No way our form of government ever intended one person to possess such power alone. The worst idea ever conceived was Executive Orders, it throws the whole system out of balance.

actually, the 'balance' that the system has designed into it works thusly: The Congress decides on specific declarations of war, and overall funding for military/defense items. All decisions around tactics and implementation are left to the Executive branch. Executive Orders are a longstanding means for Executive branch policy implementation. Changing that reality would literally require a re-write of the Constitution.

The idea of having that kind of power without being in an actual state of war, and under Martial Law, is very disturbing.

Otherwise, I don't really see a problem,

Executive orders to direct the executive branch I understand but does the executive branch really have the unilateral authority to cut off all forms of communications in the country? The 1st Ammendment comes to mind as one argument against that.

I too can imagine scenario where I wouldn't complain. Imagine a terrorist plot uncovered where a thousand dirty bombs are going to be triggered by cellphones and by the time it is discovered all the government has time to do is pull the plug...

Yes, the President has that authority, given to him by prior Executive Order

flip wrote:Yes, the President has that authority, given to him by prior Executive Order

It seems the prior executive order is unconstitutional, or rather, the act of cutting off all communication without a courts approval is unconstitutional regardless of the interpretation of any executive order.

If a Law is unconstitutional then it is invalid even though it technically is a law. I would think the same rule applies to executive order.

You should go read all the executive orders to date. At any time of distress, economic distress included, the President can take unilateral control over every resource this country has and all rights given by the Constitution are suspended until order is restored. They may have had a place, but many of them have went to far to circumvent our founding principles.

EDIT: This may seem reasonable at first glance, but really, it is in those times that our rights mean the most.

The executive branch has been usurping the constitution, and overstepping its authority for as long as I can remember, and I have learned of many times in the past.

People just seem to…not care…I don’t know.

Don’t ask for examples…I’m not in the mood, just take it as opinion.

I think if they want to be able to suspend all individual rights in time of severe distress then they have defacto rendered all laws null because all authority for government to create and/or enforce law is predicated on the deference for the inalienable rights of the citizen.

The 'right' of government to exert authority is not an equal to to the rights of the citizen....it can only exist in service and support of the individual right.

They can expect voluntary compliance from the sheeple and might makes right from the rest.

Here are just a few Executive Orders associated with FEMA that would suspend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. These Executive Orders have been on record for nearly 30 years and could be enacted by the stroke of a Presidential pen:


• EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.


• EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the communication media.


• EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.


• EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.


• EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.


• EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.


• EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.


• EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.


• EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.


• EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.


• EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051 specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.


• EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310 grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.


• EXECUTIVE ORDER 11049 assigns emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.


• EXECUTIVE ORDER 11921 allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months.

FEMA's powers were consolidated by President Carter to incorporate:


• the National Security Act of 1947, which allows for the strategic relocation of industries, services, government and other essential economic activities, and to rationalize the requirements for manpower, resources and production facilities;


• the 1950 Defense Production Act, which gives the President sweeping powers over all aspects of the economy;


• the Act of August 29, 1916, which authorizes the Secretary of the Army, in time of war, to take possession of any transportation system for transporting troops, material, or any other purpose related to the emergency; and


• the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, which enables the President to seize the property of a foreign country or national.
These powers were transferred to FEMA in a sweeping consolidation in 1979.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051 specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.

This is one of the most significant, because this means that at any time these can be evoked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un ... ive_orders

LOL, the trend changes beginning with Bush Sr

This one gives me a warm cozy feeling all over...

• EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.