[Split] 9/11 conspiracy theory

[flip]

Lol! Yeah that Silverstein is a good ole boy. Hell, 2 towers had already fell. Mighty white of him to decide and evacuate WTC7.......before it fell too

[vision]

Good grief.

WTC7
Popular Mechanics

This won't help flip, he's too far gone. But others might stumble upon this nonsense and it's my duty to provide sensible links.

Also, if you have ever seen the wreckage from WTC7 it's a goddamn mess. It certainly didn't fall into it's footprint and it certainly doesn't look controlled.

[flip]

Then there's those pesky, unreliable fireman and police, all first responders, who say the planes had already hit. The fires were already burning. They were in the lobby staging, ready to go upstairs, when 2 explosions occurred beneath them, then a 3rd which brought the whole lobby down on them. Some of them suffering broken legs from these imaginary explosions and one even having to have reconstructive surgery on his face, from imaginary explosions.

[flip]

I especially like the explanation of jet fuel and planes parts falling down the elevator shaft to cause the first explosion burning several to death. Why did it fall 90 stories, yet explode lobby level when it wasn't even the bottom most floor?

7 underground levels—included services, shopping, and a subway station

For reasons that are unclear, even the easiest rescues — releasing people trapped in elevators in the ground floor lobby — were not attempted. For example, Chris Young, a 33-year-old temporary worker, escaped on his own a few feet from the fire department's command post in the north tower just five minutes before the building collapsed. He had twice reported his location via intercom. And passengers who escaped from an adjacent elevator told firefighters they had spoken to the trapped man. He was able to open the doors only when the power failed and the motor holding the doors shut stopped working.

[Top Gun]

You're seriously not reading a word anyone else is typing, are you?

[flip]

I just find it strange the things you guys demand proof for, and the things you accept solely on faith. It really sucks how this whole tragedy has been handled. You either accept the 'official story' or ask questions and instantly become 'a conspiracy theorist'. All that really does is end the debate and keeps anyone from talking about it all. I don't disbelieve the fireman or policeman who said there were 3 explosions that caused the lobby to fall out from under them, causing severe injuries in some cases. I don't buy that jet fuel saturating the interior, considering how the elevators were structured and some of those express elevators had survivors in them. I believe Barry Jennings when he says he another gentlemen walked down to the 6th floor, that an explosion occurred and caused the landing to give way beneath them, where he is actually hanging in midair from a railing up above him. He is either outright lying or that really happened and this is all before either tower fell. Forgive me if I want to take all things into account.


Here's a link that goes into great detail about the elevators and the fact that there were many survivors in them until the building collapsed.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/sep ... usat_x.htm

Each tower had only two passenger elevators that went non-stop from bottom to top — to the Windows on the World restaurant in the north tower and the observation deck in the south tower.

and there was an actual survivor in one that got out minutes before the collapse, A lot of it doesn't make sense and there are inconsistencies.

[flip]

Barry Jennings, a City Housing Authority worker, and Michael Hess, New York’s corporation counsel, hear unexplained explosions inside World Trade Center Building 7, where they become trapped. [UPN 9, 9/11/2001; BBC, 7/6/2008] The two men went up to the emergency command center on the 23rd floor of WTC 7 after the first attack occurred (see (Shortly Before 9:03 a.m.) September 11, 2001). [Associated Press, 9/11/2001; Independent, 9/13/2001] At some point, the power goes out in the building. They then start walking down the stairs to get out. According to Hess, when the two men get down to the eighth floor, “there was an explosion and we’ve been trapped on the eighth floor with smoke, thick smoke, all around us, for about an hour and a half.” [UPN 9, 9/11/2001] Jennings will also recall hearing explosions. He will say: “I made it to the sixth floor and there was an explosion. The explosion was beneath me.” [Dylan Avery, 2007] He will add, “[T]he staircase that I was standing on just gave way,” and, “Then we made it back to the eighth floor, I heard some more explosions.” [BBC, 7/6/2008] Jennings says to Hess: “This is it; we’re dead. We’re not gonna make it out of here.” [Penn State Public Broadcasting, 3/1/2002] The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) will claim the two men head down the stairs after 9:59, when the first collapse occurs, and then become trapped around the time the second tower collapses, at 10:28. [National Institute of Standards and Technology, 9/2005, pp. 109-110] But according to the London Independent, they start heading down the stairs after the second attack at 9:03, which suggests the explosions begin earlier on. [Independent, 9/13/2001] Jennings will confirm this, saying that when he hears the first explosion, “Both [of the Twin Towers] were still standing,” meaning it occurs before 9:59. He says: “I was trapped in there when both [Twin Towers] came down.… All this time I’m hearing explosions.” [Dylan Avery, 2007] The cause of the explosions is unclear. Later on, firefighters will rescue Hess and Jennings from the building (see 12:10 p.m.-12:15 p.m. September 11, 2001).

Barry Jennings, a City Housing Authority worker who had become trapped in World Trade Center Building 7, finds the building’s lobby in ruins as he is being rescued from it, and steps over what feels to him like dead bodies. [Dylan Avery, 2007] After the first plane hit the WTC, Jennings had gone up to the emergency command center on the 23rd floor of WTC 7 along with Michael Hess, New York’s corporation counsel (see (Shortly Before 9:03 a.m.) September 11, 2001). [Associated Press, 9/11/2001; Dylan Avery, 2007] After heading down the stairs, the two men became trapped on the building’s eighth floor (see (Between 9:15 a.m. and 12:00 p.m.) September 11, 2001). Some time later, firefighters come into WTC 7 to help the two men out of the building. [UPN 9, 9/11/2001; National Institute of Standards and Technology, 9/2005, pp. 109-110]
Lobby Is 'Total Ruins' - According to Jennings, when he gets down to the lobby, he is astonished to find it totally ruined. In a 2007 interview he will recall: “[W]hen I came in there, the lobby had nice escalators. It was a huge lobby.” But reaching it again, he asks the firefighter who is escorting him, “Where are we?” and the firefighter answers, “This was the lobby.” Jennings finds this “unbelievable,” and says, “You gotta be kidding me.” He will describe the lobby as being “total ruins.”
'Stepping over People' - Furthermore, Jennings steps over what may be dead bodies in the lobby. He will say: “[T]he firefighter that took us down kept saying, ‘Do not look down,’ and I kept saying, ‘Why is that?’ [He said,] ‘Do not look down.’ And, stepping over people. And you know you could feel when you’re stepping over people.” [Dylan Avery, 2007] Yet most people were evacuated from WTC 7 around 9:03 a.m., if not earlier (see (9:03 a.m.) September 11, 2001). [National Institute of Standards and Technology, 9/2005, pp. 109] The very latest that people left the building, according to official accounts, was 9:30 a.m. (see (9:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001). [9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 305] In a later interview, Jennings will clarify: “I never saw dead bodies.… t felt like I was stepping over them but I never saw them.” The BBC will say, “There is no evidence that anyone died in Tower 7 on 9/11.” [BBC, 7/4/2008; BBC, 7/6/2008] According to the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), firefighters lead Jennings and Hess out of WTC 7 at around 12:10 p.m. to 12:15 p.m. (see 12:10 p.m.-12:15 p.m. September 11, 2001)

While most of Building 7 of the World Trade Center was evacuated around the time the South Tower was hit, if not earlier (see (9:03 a.m.) September 11, 2001), firefighters now find three individuals who have become trapped inside it, and lead them out of the building. [National Institute of Standards and Technology, 6/2004, pp. L-18 pdf file; National Institute of Standards and Technology, 9/2005, pp. 109-110] Among these individuals are Barry Jennings, a City Housing Authority worker, and Michael Hess, New York’s chief lawyer who is also a longtime friend of Mayor Rudolph Giuliani. The two had gone up to the 23rd floor emergency command center of the Mayor’s Office of Emergency Management after the first attack occurred, but found it empty (see (Shortly Before 9:03 a.m.) September 11, 2001). [New York Times, 11/21/1997; Associated Press, 9/11/2001; Giuliani, 2002, pp. 20-21 and 244; Dylan Avery, 2007] They then headed downstairs but became trapped around the eighth floor by smoke and debris that filled the staircase. After breaking a window and calling for help, they were spotted by firefighters outside. When the firefighters go in, they also find a security officer for one of the businesses based in the building, who is trapped on the seventh floor by the smoke in the stairway. This officer headed up the building after the South Tower collapsed at 9:59, to check that all his personnel had left there (see (Shortly After 9:59 a.m.-12:10 p.m.) September 11, 2001). All three men are escorted out of the building.

I say he was telling the truth.

[flip]

despite his prominence on national TV, Jennings was never called to testify before the 9/11 Commission, and his account was not included in the 9/11 Commission Report or the NIST WTC Reports. Similarly, the 9/11 Commission also completely ignored the firefighters’ reports of explosions in the Twin Towers, as contained in the Fire Department of New York (FDNY) oral histories, while making “fairly extensive use of the oral histories” for other purposes, according to 9/11 researcher Graeme MacQueen (see page 9 of the PDF, page 55 of the Journal ).

Sometime before 2008, during an interview with Loose Change filmmakers Jason Bermas and Dylan Avery, Jennings elaborated on the explosions he heard and felt in Building 7, saying (at the 5:45 mark):

“All this time, I’m hearing all kinds of explosions. All this time I’m hearing explosions. And I’m thinking that maybe it’s the uh, buses around me that were on fire, the cars that were on fire, but, I don’t see no [gesturing] you know, but I'm still hearing these explosions. When they [the rescuers] finally got to us, and they took us down, to what, what they, they, uh, called the lobby, because I asked them when we got down there I said, ‘Where are we?’ He said ‘This was the lobby.’ And I said, ‘You gotta be kidding me.’ Total ruins. Total ruins. Now keep in mind when I came in there, the lobby had nice escalators, it was a huge lobby. And for me to see what I saw, was unbelievable.”

In an interview with BBC, Jennings clarified that he stepped over dead bodies as he escaped WTC 7, but did not actually see them. This may be difficult testimony for a jury to comprehend. He did, however, continue to assert that explosions occurred in the building.

There has been some confusion regarding the extent to which Jennings had, before his death, retracted portions of his account regarding his stepping over dead bodies at Building 7. This side issue might have to be dealt with during any formal proceeding; however, Jennings never wavered from his statements regarding the explosions. Thus, his recorded statements remain highly credible and would still be of importance

You know it feels when you know your beating a dead horse but you cn't stop yourself? I think Jennings testimony should have went on record. So I simply ask why?

EDIT: Maybe it establishes a timeline and corroboration to some fireman and policeman.

[callmeslick]

I'd respond, but have been entirely too busy assembling a suitable tin-foil headpiece........

[flip]

To each his own.

[Will Robinson]

...First, you argue that he didn't mean 'pull', as in demolition, but then you argue, but if he did that makes sense to. ...

No, I argue that his use, or anyone else's use, of the word pull seems to be with regard to pulling people in one instance and pulling with cables in the other. The full context of when and how the people used those phrases was left out of the conspiracy theorists indictment of the speaker so it could be implied they were talking demolition.

Then I suggested that if charges were hastily set in #7 it was likely to be for safety reasons not so the owner could secretly blow up his building and say "Whoa! Mine got hit too!!! Where's my insurance check?!?"

Again, you aren't the only one with the supposed evidence you are citing....Where is the mega million dollar insurance company and their army of lawyers alleging insurance fraud if the evidence you cite is conclusive?

What is likely becomes an important benchmark here....

[Sergeant Thorne]

How/why does one pull a building with cables?

EDIT: Will, I think it's a little unrealistic to suggest that charges which essentially drop a large building in its footprint could be set hastily. Also, why is bringing a building down safer than... the alternative? I'm just a casual observer, but I think that's all pretty unlikely.

[Will Robinson]

How/why does one pull a building with cables?

EDIT: Will, I think it's a little unrealistic to suggest that charges which essentially drop a large building in its footprint could be set hastily. Also, why is bringing a building down safer than... the alternative? I'm just a casual observer, but I think that's all pretty unlikely.

At some point in the aftermath there were cables used to keep a section from falling..or to cause a section to fall instead of trying to use explosives or maybe to hold it while charges could be placed. I don't even know which building it was. This was revealed in answer to questions about the use of the word "Pull".
At some point cables were attached to a leaning wall section to control it in some way. Either to facilitate rescue personnel to enter or to bring those sections down. That's all that I read.

As to why bringing it down is safer, the building was supposedly damaged and could fall and hit workers in the area.
As to haste, I don't know how well the building fell (WTC7) or how long it took them to plant charges if they did.
What I do know is it would be near impossible to cause the WTC7 to fall after the Twin Towers fell using explosives and fool everyone who would be there that it wasn't explosives. That includes any insurance company that would have to pay if it fell due to the terrorist attack.

I'm not up to speed on the current version of the WTC7 conspiracy but when I originally looked into it there was a ton of stuff that debunks it. I'm working off of memory here.

As for explosions in the Twin Towers, which would have to have been set before the planes hit, and the installation of them hidden, and even after they were set off the evidence that they were used be undetectable...that seems to be a plan that is ridiculously unlikely to succeed.

Has any one explored the science behind the theory that the collapse of such magnitude, slamming a giant burning mass down through a rectangular tube 800 feet high could create the kind of 'explosion' reported at ground level where the intense pressure from the energy transfer of that burning mass slamming home was vented outward...probably igniting particles and air in a scenario very similar to the proverbial volcanic style 'cloud' that is cited?
That seems much more likely to me.

[Sergeant Thorne]

That includes any insurance company that would have to pay if it fell due to the terrorist attack.

Have you been watching The Thomas Crown Affair?

As for explosions in the Twin Towers, which would have to have been set before the planes hit, and the installation of them hidden, and even after they were set off the evidence that they were used be undetectable...that seems to be a plan that is ridiculously unlikely to succeed.

Well, I could agree on both counts (both quotes), but in my mind it really depends on who is behind it. I believe there are people in this world with the attention to detail, the foresight, and the ability to pull this off. They don't work day jobs like we do. The only interest which could drive this, in my mind, would be big money, and I'm talking really big money (power, at that point). If the only option was some part of government, I would say its definitely unlikely. If you were to ask "who stands to gain from 9/11?", I would say there are some really high stakes (a lot higher than insurance returns). The United States has changed drastically in a decade since, and as far as I can tell it has only begun.

Like Flip I'm undecided. I know people who believe it was a conspiracy. I find the official account kind of incredible, myself. I guess there are only so many terrorist attacks in one's life, and you accept the strangeness of it--our systems of defense just happened to fail in X, Y, and Z way, and these folks not only manage to pull off a daring attack, but then that attack entirely wipes out 3 high-rises and puts a big hole in the unapproachable Pentagon building. Maybe that's all true. Maybe the truth all came out. Hell, maybe it's even mostly true, but I know a little bit about the extreme levels of deception and evil in this world, and I know that people can be capable of incredible things. There are people that say a single, world government is unlikely. If you're going to talk about likelihood you need to know exactly who and what you're talking about. According to the player roster per the media, I think a conspiracy of this magnitude is absolutely incredible and highly unlikely.

[Krom]

Only way they could keep a plot like that secret is if everyone involved died in the towers.

[Sergeant Thorne]

That's Hollywood's way of keeping a secret, and I follow your thought, but there are other ways of engineering a secret. Compartmentalization, extremely high payoffs to the right sort of people with the right skills (if you made a lifetime's money in one job, and your record wasn't exactly squeaky-clean anyway, would you jeopardize it?), fear/guilt, and finally death (if you're not the right sort of person). That's in order of preference. When you engineer a really good secret, managing the people is only a part of it, I would say. Structure, environment, ... Then make it so that it would take so much work, and so much sacrifice--with a good probability of being martyred/ruined--that even a good person would go on with their life instead of talking, and then just kill the idealists (idealists are mostly inexperienced/naive, IMO). Reality is so complicated, Krom. So complicated that people simplify it in their minds in order to get by and live relatively happy lives (ever notice that not being happy is a sign you're doing something wrong?), and just ignore the ugly stuff.

[vision]

...ever notice that not being happy is a sign you're doing something wrong?

No, please elaborate. There are more than 20 million people in the US with depression that would love to hear your "wisdom."

Sure the brain is really great at abstraction from complex to simple, but that doesn't mean ridiculous, convoluted theories are better than truth gleaned from solid evidence. Conspiracy theorist thrive off negative worldviews. I said it before and I'll say it again. 9/11 wasn't the result of conspiracy, it was the result of widespread incompetence, the same incompetence we see in our government every day. So incompetent that a simple plan (fly commercial jets into buildings) was executed perfectly.

[Sergeant Thorne]

That's an easy explanation of a very complex tragedy. Incompetence is everywhere, in business and government, but that's just a broad-brushed assumption and nothing more, whether it ultimately has any basis in reality or not.

And I never claimed to have the answer to depression, though I have dealt with it and I might have some understanding of it. I was actually saying that it's wrong to allow "happiness" to steer your perception of reality, and that's becoming fairly common. People don't like to acknowledge realities that they don't understand and which make them unhappy. If you feel out reality according to what doesn't make you unhappy, you're going to have a very shallow, incomplete grasp of reality.

[woodchip]

Flip, let me throw my 2 cents in as I too have worked commercial construction for many years. Regarding the lower floor burns and explosion I'd look to see if there were any doctor/dentist offices in the building. If so were there any types of flammable gas lines running through the building? Were there any oxygen/nitrous oxide etc cylinders in any of those offices? Just these 2 ideas could have caused the secondary explosions you talked about.

As to the collapse itself just look at the type of construction and structural support of the floors for the towers and compare them to the construction of the Empire State building (which survived a WW2 bomber flying into it).

[flip]

I've got no problems with alternative solutions for those explosions. My problem is all of the testimony regarding them was struck from the record. Take Jennings testimony for instance. He was with a colleague of his, Hess. It's not like Hess couldn't have looked right at Jennings as if he were a liar. Yet, neither disputes his story. His description of the lobby as being blown out, is exactly as the fireman describe in the tower. These are not the dregs of society we are talking about here. We are talking about Emergency Organizer Jennings, and first responders. This is also regarding all the testimony of the people evacuated and claiming to see the same thing. If you believe Jennings testimony, when He and Hess walked into an intact lobby, full of police, then made it to the 23rd floor, the building was already evacuated. He claims smoking coffee and half-eaten doughnuts but not a soul around. I've listened to the videos of witnesses saying there were ground explosions right before the 1st plane hit. I can see in one where a camera is on the ground jumps, seconds before the plane hits. This corroborates the testimony of at least 3 witnesses that say there was an explosion low, right before the explosion high. No, I'm not convinced and the reason not is because of all this testimony and this account has been struck from the record.