DescentBB

Ahhhh, the power of distorting someone’s words at work.

Proof it’s a useful but somewhat underhanded tactic.

You are forced to spend energy defending yourself against things you never said, and if you don’t…you pay a price anyway.

Ferno wrote:I take personal offense to the statement that poor people are poor due to bad decisions. So thanks for painting all us poor people with a broad brush.

I'm poor as hell, duper. does that mean I made bad decisions in life?

...yes.

Ferno wrote:I take personal offense to the statement that poor people are poor due to bad decisions. So thanks for painting all us poor people with a broad brush.

I'm poor as hell, duper. does that mean I made bad decisions in life?

I guess your post begs the question, "What have you done to stop being poor?"

woodchip wrote:

Ferno wrote:I take personal offense to the statement that poor people are poor due to bad decisions. So thanks for painting all us poor people with a broad brush.

I'm poor as hell, duper. does that mean I made bad decisions in life?

I guess your post begs the question, "What have you done to stop being poor?"

More like, "what hasn't he done?"

This kind of reasoning seems to imply that everyone who is rich got that way because of some sort of infallible work ethic, dedication, and smarts. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the same way, there are countless forces outside of one's control that can keep a person in poverty regardless of their decision making. Even forgetting about bad starting conditions, all you need are a few ill-timed events to put you on a path that is practically impossible to recover from (note emphasis).

example #1 for you: health care expenses. They are the number one cause of personal bankruptcy in the US, and have been for a while now.

But remember, we can't implement universal healthcare that would alleviate that misfortune, because that's ebil socialism!

Too bad you are all talking about something Duper never said.

vision wrote:

woodchip wrote:

Ferno wrote:I take personal offense to the statement that poor people are poor due to bad decisions. So thanks for painting all us poor people with a broad brush.

I'm poor as hell, duper. does that mean I made bad decisions in life?

I guess your post begs the question, "What have you done to stop being poor?"

More like, "what hasn't he done?"

This kind of reasoning seems to imply that everyone who is rich got that way because of some sort of infallible work ethic, dedication, and smarts. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the same way, there are countless forces outside of one's control that can keep a person in poverty regardless of their decision making. Even forgetting about bad starting conditions, all you need are a few ill-timed events to put you on a path that is practically impossible to recover from (note emphasis).

And it is your reply that will encourage Ferno to stay in poverty. Finding excuses is easy. Finding how to get ahead is much harder.

there is truth in what both of the last two posts stated. Yes, poverty can be a hard thing to escape, and I'm quite certain that wealth in NO WAY implies intelligent choice-making by an individual. Yet, Woody says something very true in the comment that figuring out how to escape poverty is far more challenging than accepting poverty as a given. Without knowing any of the conditions or even what Fermo describes as 'poor as hell', I am not able to comment of Fermo's present situation beyond wishing him well on the journey.

woodchip wrote:And it is your reply that will encourage Ferno to stay in poverty. Finding excuses is easy. Finding how to get ahead is much harder.

Most people work their asses off to not be poor. You have to, otherwise you become homeless and starve. Yes, there are people who are Lifers to coin a word Will likes to use, but this is a small percentage of the poor in the United States. There are a lot of poor people who are smart and work hard but can't break into the upper brackets simply because there are only so many opportunities you can create for yourself over time without resorting to unethical practices. These aren't excuses, this is reality for millions of people who want the same thing as everyone else -- financial security and good health.

vision wrote:

woodchip wrote:And it is your reply that will encourage Ferno to stay in poverty. Finding excuses is easy. Finding how to get ahead is much harder.

Most people work their asses off to not be poor. You have to, otherwise you become homeless and starve. Yes, there are people who are Lifers to coin a word Will likes to use, but this is a small percentage of the poor in the United States. There are a lot of poor people who are smart and work hard but can't break into the upper brackets simply because there are only so many opportunities you can create for yourself over time without resorting to unethical practices. These aren't excuses, this is reality for millions of people who want the same thing as everyone else -- financial security and good health.

I don't doubt your assessment but it made me wonder if there is enough prosperity in the whole pie to ensure that all those who want it will get their slice.
The line that defines "poverty" is a moving target. Ugandan's will draw it just above food, water and shelter. America draws it above the middle class for the rest of the world.

Is it reasonable to expect everyone willing to earn at least a median 'American income' should be able to?
I figure we could do a lot better than the current ratio of unemployed/under employed but does our model and the markets support a 'fully employed' population where they are not only all working but happy with where they are financially?

Will Robinson wrote: I don't doubt your assessment but it made me wonder if there is enough prosperity in the whole pie to ensure that all those who want it will get their slice.
The line that defines "poverty" is a moving target. Ugandan's will draw it just above food, water and shelter. America draws it above the middle class for the rest of the world.

Is it reasonable to expect everyone willing to earn at least a median 'American income' should be able to?
I figure we could do a lot better than the current ratio of unemployed/under employed but does our model and the markets support a 'fully employed' population where they are not only all working but happy with where they are financially?

I see your point, and here it made a lot by wealthy folks over the past decade or so by way of justification of less taxation to support a social safety net. My view of it is this: there IS a big enough pie that no one should have a 40 hour per week job, or work a 40-hour equivalent at more than one job, and not rise to the minimal poverty line. That line might move, but essentially only includes affording local housing, food and utilities for a family of 4.

woodchip wrote:I guess your post begs the question, "What have you done to stop being poor?"

no. my post doesn't beg any question.

Here's the thing. I don't make a ton of money from the job I'm in, and whatever money I do make, goes right back into various expenses. The cost of living where I am is quite out of control due to the housing market being over-inflated. Couple that with the township trying their damndest to attract tourists and rich retirees brings the standard of living even higher. Add onto that the businesses recognizing that there are more and more rich people coming here and raising their prices on everything.

All that comes back to me in the form of a higher rent, higher food bill, higher fuel bill and higher labour prices for various services I need from time to time.

The other slice is since I work in the collision industry, no one can pay their deductible, and consequently, no work is coming through the door. We're living off of tow-ins, special piece work and small jobs.

Even though I'm working as hard as I can, showing as much initiative as possible and respected at the place where I work; the hours that I need are just not there. And guess what. Because of all that, I'm poor as hell.


So use your bloody head the next time you want to say something like "people are poor because of bad decisions". Or "what have you done to stop being poor".

Maybe we should make a deal, Ferno. Don't get offended so easily, and woody and I won't offer to pick apart your financial life to show you where the mistakes are. Who's guaranteed prosperity in their chosen field and location? So you deal with the variables that you are able to manipulate. That's where the concept of frugality was born, I'm pretty sure. If you're satisfied that you're doing everything you can do and you still not making it, then I guess it sucks to be you. <3

I really don't know what it's like in Canada, but I assume people have much the same options as we do around here.

Sergeant Thorne wrote:Maybe we should make a deal, Ferno. Don't get offended so easily, and woody and I won't offer to pick apart your financial life to show you where the mistakes are. Who's guaranteed prosperity in their chosen field and location? So you deal with the variables that you are able to manipulate. That's where the concept of frugality was born, I'm pretty sure. If you're satisfied that you're doing everything you can do and you still not making it, then I guess it sucks to be you. <3

I really don't know what it's like in Canada, but I assume people have much the same options as we do around here.

your terms are unrealistic. no deal.

Ferno wrote:

woodchip wrote:I guess your post begs the question, "What have you done to stop being poor?"

no. my post doesn't beg any question.

Here's the thing. I don't make a ton of money from the job I'm in, and whatever money I do make, goes right back into various expenses. The cost of living where I am is quite out of control due to the housing market being over-inflated. Couple that with the township trying their damndest to attract tourists and rich retirees brings the standard of living even higher. Add onto that the businesses recognizing that there are more and more rich people coming here and raising their prices on everything.

All that comes back to me in the form of a higher rent, higher food bill, higher fuel bill and higher labour prices for various services I need from time to time.

The other slice is since I work in the collision industry, no one can pay their deductible, and consequently, no work is coming through the door. We're living off of tow-ins, special piece work and small jobs.

Even though I'm working as hard as I can, showing as much initiative as possible and respected at the place where I work; the hours that I need are just not there. And guess what. Because of all that, I'm poor as hell.


So use your bloody head the next time you want to say something like "people are poor because of bad decisions". Or "what have you done to stop being poor".

Maybe I'm wrong but hasn't Cuda been posting about how hard it is for him to find help in the auto repair business he's in? Maybe you two should talk.

Nahhhh…people don’t move to where the jobs are anymore.

Spidey wrote:Nahhhh…people don’t move to where the jobs are anymore.

Because we are too old to learn Chinese.

Good one. ... ...

CUDA wrote:And that's why my posting has dropped of recently. I'm beginning to dislike what this forum is turning into. And worse off I'm getting caught up in it myself. And I like that even less.

What kind of discussion WOULD you like to see here CUDA? The only times I see you drop in is when the discussion turns to the Bible.

Fermo,
All the other silliness aside, Woody has a point......maybe not specifically CUDA's firm, but from what CUDA says, experienced help in that sort of work is hard to find, here in the States. Are you open to moving?

/me wonders how long slick would have kept typing 'Fermo' if I hadn't pointed out that its 'Ferno' with an N...

likely forever.....Krom. Mental block. Thanks for pointing it out, perhaps shame or embarrassment will work to fix my issue.

woodchip wrote:Maybe I'm wrong but hasn't Cuda been posting about how hard it is for him to find help in the auto repair business he's in? Maybe you two should talk.

Well, I'm pretty good at mechanics (98% on my pre-app test at BCIT), so I am willing to listen. I don't hold any sort of ASE or equivalent certification though.

Slick: as for moving, it's also an option I've been considering for a while.

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tunnelcat wrote:

CUDA wrote:And that's why my posting has dropped of recently. I'm beginning to dislike what this forum is turning into. And worse off I'm getting caught up in it myself. And I like that even less.

What kind of discussion WOULD you like to see here CUDA? The only times I see you drop in is when the discussion turns to the Bible.

If you two are so inclined, I would also participate more, IF (and that's a very big if) the political absurdity drops down to a minimum.