DescentBB

snoopy wrote:So... back on the OP:

I'll agree that generally "more education" is a good thing for societies. I don't think it's valid to conclude that everyone should go to "university."

no one suggests they do. What is the goal is that everyone who wishes to and has the intellect to succeed be given that education for free, out of acknowledgement of the long-term benefits to the society as a whole.

as for the rest...I agree with the 'attitude toward education' bit, and as anyone reading here knows, I find attacks on educational institutions and higher learning are tickets to societal disaster. Such attacks merely entrench that part of the populace who don't value education. I disagree with the ability to access higher ed affordably. The average debt load has been climbing, and the folks who are getting priced out are the middle income families. Yes, some states are good about providing in-state University ed, but a lot aren't. It is a mixed bag, and in no case is it as openly generous as Scandanavian nations.

callmeslick wrote:I disagree with the ability to access higher ed affordably. The average debt load has been climbing, and the folks who are getting priced out are the middle income families. Yes, some states are good about providing in-state University ed, but a lot aren't. It is a mixed bag, and in no case is it as openly generous as Scandanavian nations.

It is sad when it's the "middle" that gets the squeeze, since I'm a big fan of promoting that "middle." Do you think that shifting the costs over to the tax payers will really help, though? It'll still be the middle that will end up bearing the brunt of the extra tax burden (my prediction), and if anything I see it harming the "not cut out for college, should do vocational studies/apprenticeship" group because they will be forced to bear some of the cost for the people that do go to college. If states aren't providing good in-state educations, then fix that...

snoopy wrote:It is sad when it's the "middle" that gets the squeeze, since I'm a big fan of promoting that "middle." Do you think that shifting the costs over to the tax payers will really help, though?

I would have high hopes for a long term upside, with my thinking being:
1. Like most federal taxation, the bulk would be paid by the top 15% of all earners. Of course, the middle gets more pain under the current system, but this can be seen as investment.
2. Taking the financial pressure off the decision, you should see a better flow of true talent through the higher ed system, at younger ages, thus adding
more high paying employment to the tax base earlier in life. Long term this reduces the per-person burden, at least in theory.
3. By remaining globally competetive, the GDP of the nation stays at/near the top per capita, and that is in every citizen's interest, one should think.

Now, let's be completely honest....there could be the following downside points:
1. By guaranteeing payment, there could, without strict regulation and oversight, a strong upward pressure on college tuition.
2. Also, there has to be more vigilance than at present over 'for profit' higher ed institutions.

as for your final part, Snoopy, it isn't that anyone suggests that state schools aren't providing good quality educations. The US higher ed system is the envy of the world, in large part due to our state college networks.

Yeah, as much of a mess as our primary and secondary education generally is, there's a good reason why there are so many Chinese and Indian students attending American colleges for their undergrad/graduate degrees. It's just the exorbitant cost that's the killer.

Top Gun wrote:Yeah, as much of a mess as our primary and secondary education generally is, there's a good reason why there are so many Chinese and Indian students attending American colleges for their undergrad/graduate degrees. It's just the exorbitant cost that's the killer.

on a similar note, those Chinese and Indian children attending US public schools(and there are many around these parts) seem to have no problem advancing not only into college, but into advanced scientific degrees with that 'mess' of an education system. We have far more of a 'mess' of a parental responsibility ethic than we do with the actual educational system IMHO.

callmeslick wrote:...
on a similar note, those Chinese and Indian children attending US public schools(and there are many around these parts) seem to have no problem advancing not only into college, but into advanced scientific degrees with that 'mess' of an education system. We have far more of a 'mess' of a parental responsibility ethic than we do with the actual educational system IMHO.

Careful you are dangerously close to affirming the point some of us have been making...the one you had been trying to dismiss. Never mind, too late you just did.

Points!!

Will Robinson wrote:

callmeslick wrote:...
on a similar note, those Chinese and Indian children attending US public schools(and there are many around these parts) seem to have no problem advancing not only into college, but into advanced scientific degrees with that 'mess' of an education system. We have far more of a 'mess' of a parental responsibility ethic than we do with the actual educational system IMHO.

Careful you are dangerously close to affirming the point some of us have been making...the one you had been trying to dismiss. Never mind, too late you just did.

no, you would suggest that one race is dragging us down. I argue that it is a societal issue within US society. Not a matter of liberalism vs conservative, white, black or other race, gender, nothing of the sort. I am saying that we, as a culture, have lost parental focus on the importance of education. If one wishes to tie that to politics in ANY way, I would say to look at the mockery of the intellectual classes in this nation that goes right back to Ronnie Reagan(ironically, a college grad).

I am saying that we, as a culture, have lost focus on the importance of Parenting

fixed it for you

callmeslick wrote:[...
no, you would suggest that one race is dragging us down. ...

You are full of ★■◆●.
I guess that's just how you operate at every level though.

Misrepresent the alternate view so you can tear it down....or, in this case, misrepresent it when it is pointed out you have adopted it so you can deny having done so.

Slick- Hypocrite Epitomus.

Our current environment does not produce long-term thinkers. "The Government" is made up of your peers and neighbors. How can we hold them and therefore the "Government" to a high standard we do not hold ourselves too. The Government is not the problem, it is the consequence.

CUDA wrote:

I am saying that we, as a culture, have lost focus on the importance of Parenting

fixed it for you

and quite well, indeed!!

flip wrote:Our current environment does not produce long-term thinkers. "The Government" is made up of your peers and neighbors. How can we hold them and therefore the "Government" to a high standard we do not hold ourselves too. The Government is not the problem, it is the consequence.

well, that gets back to my long-standing argument that we live in a society that has lost interest in long-term planning, so I agree. And, it ties in with CUDAs 'correction' above. Parenting, when done well, is all about long-term outcomes, not short-term gratification.

Top Gun wrote:Yeah, as much of a mess as our primary and secondary education generally is, there's a good reason why there are so many Chinese and Indian students attending American colleges for their undergrad/graduate degrees. It's just the exorbitant cost that's the killer.

I have to say, as a WASP, it's a little bit strange being in the minority in my graduate engineering classes.

snoopy wrote:

Top Gun wrote:Yeah, as much of a mess as our primary and secondary education generally is, there's a good reason why there are so many Chinese and Indian students attending American colleges for their undergrad/graduate degrees. It's just the exorbitant cost that's the killer.

I have to say, as a WASP, it's a little bit strange being in the minority in my graduate engineering classes.

I bit I'd find the same thing were I back in grad school for Biochemistry these days......