DescentBB

CUDA wrote:"IF" You believe what the scientific community say

I believe modern scientists a lot more than the musings of superstitious men from an ancient past that had a poor understanding of the world around them. You do remember, I'm a science major, so I'm very biased towards my world view.

And only your arrogance would make you think they didnt have an understanding of the world around them.

maybe you should do a little research into the abilities of the Egyptians and the Myans, we still dont know how they did some of the things they did.

tunnelcat wrote: I'm almost 60 years old. I'm closer to death than life and my body is giving out slowly. I'll know soon enough.

Dammit TC. I thought you were working on immortality for us humans with your science major!

What went wrong?

Four years ago I was hospitalized in a terrible state. At the hospital, I was given a very unpleasant diagnosis. After discharge from the hospital, two long years I followed a specific diet, I could not afford many of the usual things that can afford healthy people. I think you're bad enough idea what it means for two years to think about what you have left to live as a maximum of 5 years... When the gun with one bullet becomes your best friend...
Despite the fact that I am very much lost weight and turned into a skeleton, I continued to practice my favorite hobby.
Of course, the deterioration of my health constantly bother me.
I went through a full examination in additional specialized medical intstitut. Diagnosis, which was delivered to me earlier, was completely disproof. A year later, I quickly dialed normal weight and I began to live a full life.
Therefore, not all doctors are always right.

CUDA wrote:And only your arrogance would make you think they didnt have an understanding of the world around them.

maybe you should do a little research into the abilities of the Egyptians and the Myans, we still dont know how they did some of the things they did.

Um, exsqueeeeeze me, but the Mayans, if that's who you were referring too, were NEVER mentioned in the Bible, nor did the Biblical cradle of civilization populations even realize that there were lands and cultures on whole different continents, cultures who held very different religious beliefs than they did. And those 2 civilizations you refer to had absolutely no clue as to the makeup and mechanics of the earth. They weren't ignorant, but they weren't, lets say, scientifically informed as to the origins of the continents or the very ground they lived on. They didn't even know fossils were the mineralized or chemically altered remains of plants and animals from EONS ago. Western cultures even thought that fossilized remains on mountainsides were proof of the Biblical Deluge, not realizing, or deliberately ignoring the fact, that those fossils were far older than that supposed event and that natural forces they couldn't conceive of, except for some spiritual ones, that those mountains were originally ancient sea beds. Hell, the Catholic Church called scientists of their time heretics for daring to say that the earth orbited the sun and not the other way around.

sigma wrote:Four years ago I was hospitalized in a terrible state. At the hospital, I was given a very unpleasant diagnosis. After discharge from the hospital, two long years I followed a specific diet, I could not afford many of the usual things that can afford healthy people. I think you're bad enough idea what it means for two years to think about what you have left to live as a maximum of 5 years... When the gun with one bullet becomes your best friend...
Despite the fact that I am very much lost weight and turned into a skeleton, I continued to practice my favorite hobby.
Of course, the deterioration of my health constantly bother me.
I went through a full examination in additional specialized medical intstitut. Diagnosis, which was delivered to me earlier, was completely disproof. A year later, I quickly dialed normal weight and I began to live a full life.
Therefore, not all doctors are always right.

sigma, I've come to loathe doctors and hospitals. In my opinion, doctors are высокомерный воры and are absolutely worthless for fixing what ails people and in my opinion only want to see patients so they can make lots of cash to send their kids to college and buy expensive houses and cars. If they can't figure out what's wrong with you after probing you with their standard tests, they then blame those ills on YOU and say that every symptom you have is all in your head. And don't ever tell a Western doctor you've ever been slightly depressed or angry. That's all they need to write you off as mentally ill and not physically sick.

Funny... people still believe that school isn't for indoctrinating the human resource, and no politics are involved in the "experts" noble search for truth.

Theism and atheism are like two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner

If you don't give them proof, they automatically assume that there is none since they can't fathom such things on their own.

I thought Cro Magnon appeared 40,000 years and he was the genotype of modern man. So man has been around in his present shape a lot longer than 6000 years.

Are you an archaeologist?

I don't debate these things because nobody ever agrees on anything. Atheism is pushed on people thru the school system, and things like yoga and meditation are always talked about as being scientific while Christianity is pushed further and further into the background, and Christians are always demonized and they stopped being a major influence in the scientific community and in general in countries like the United States.

woodchip wrote:I thought Cro Magnon appeared 40,000 years and he was the genotype of modern man. So man has been around in his present shape a lot longer than 6000 years.

No direct link Woody they "think" he's the for runner to modern man but cannot tie the two together

So, on the OP subject:

I believe more technical treatment is that Atheism is a statement what what one doesn't believe, and therefore isn't necessarily a religion; but it must be coupled with a positive holding of what one does believe - which is generally is secular humanism. Secular humanism is technically a philosophical stance (just like believing in God is a philosophical stance) but if you were to attend secular humanist meetings to talk about secular humanism you'd essentially be participating in a religion (which I'd define as an organized group supporting a certain philosophical stance.)

TLDR: Atheism isn't a religion, secular humanism is.

by definition Atheism is NOT a religion. but it is a Faith

CUDA wrote:by definition Atheism is NOT a religion. but it is a Faith

I'd use the word 'belief' but we likely MEAN the same thing.

So if both theism and atheism (I'd call them both "belief systems") include statements of what one does and does not believe...

...how would you categorize agnosticism, which is fundamentally a statement of doubt without a corresponding statement of faith/belief?

callmeslick wrote:

CUDA wrote:by definition Atheism is NOT a religion. but it is a Faith

I'd use the word 'belief' but we likely MEAN the same thing.

I say faith because they, just as Christians have to rely on the unseen.

Foil wrote:...how would you categorize agnosticism,

I would categorize it as " ***SHRUG*** I don't know"

ThunderBunny wrote:

tunnelcat wrote: I'm almost 60 years old. I'm closer to death than life and my body is giving out slowly. I'll know soon enough.

Dammit TC. I thought you were working on immortality for us humans with your science major!

What went wrong?

Would you even WANT immortality?

CUDA wrote:

callmeslick wrote:

CUDA wrote:by definition Atheism is NOT a religion. but it is a Faith

I'd use the word 'belief' but we likely MEAN the same thing.

I say faith because they, just as Christians have to rely on the unseen.

Well, that depends on what variety of atheism you're talking about. Under one fairly-common label, "weak" atheism basically says, "I don't believe in the existence of God(s) because there is no experimental or observational evidence to suggest that he/they exist." In that case, the person is going by what they can see, or more specifically that they don't see any signs of there being a God. "Strong" atheism, on the other hand, says, "Not only is there no evidence that God exists, but the existence of such a being is impossible." I would classify that as dealing much more with the unseen.

CUDA wrote:

Foil wrote:...how would you categorize agnosticism,

I would categorize it as " ***SHRUG*** I don't know"

A little flippant, wouldn't you say CUDA. I would categorize it as NOT believing what mortal men have imagined and written in the distant past as some kind of rigid truth to follow using only blind faith or else, but instead having a belief that there is something else far greater that exists than ourselves in universe that we cannot possibly understand in our limited current form, and that everything we do here on earth has consequences for ourselves and that universe. It's either that, or we're a flash in the pan. POOF.

I think you miss interpreted my answer.

it was more along the lines of "I really don't know one way or the other"

CUDA wrote:I think you miss interpreted my answer.

it was more along the lines of "I really don't know one way or the other"

I know. Just thought I'd put in my 2 bits being agnostic myself.

Maybe I should have said I'm antagonistic.

We already knew that

Foil wrote:So if both theism and atheism (I'd call them both "belief systems") include statements of what one does and does not believe...

...how would you categorize agnosticism, which is fundamentally a statement of doubt without a corresponding statement of faith/belief?

I guess I'd back up and look at the bigger picture of how you live your life as an agnostic. An agnostic may claim doubt about specifically the existence of God... but we all face decisions on a daily basis where we have to put our money on the table somewhere. If you were a philosopher (as in, you were schooled in a wide variety of philosophical schools and knew how to identify them) and shadowed a given person for a month or so, you could probably give a fairly clear picture of their philosophical alignment (or belief system) - despite their desire or acceptance of being categorized.

TLDR: Regardless of what you say, I think life forces you to live by some belief system - so if you want to know what someone really believes, follow them around and watch how they live their life. A person's daily choices may be a more true testament to their belief system than anything that they have to say on the matter.

I have no doubt that if tomorrow our Creator will come to us as a man and show unrealistic wonders, in this case, modern scientists will want to catch it, to study in order it, the military will want to catch it, in order to use divine miracles for military purposes, and religious clergy and people again will want to crucify God on the cross, because God did not obey the rules set by human clergy.

snoopy wrote:A person's daily choices may be a more true testament to their belief system than anything that they have to say on the matter.

this is well put.

snoopy wrote:An agnostic may claim doubt about specifically the existence of God... but we all face decisions on a daily basis where we have to put our money on the table somewhere.

Congratulations, this is what Richard Dawkins wrote about the subject in The God Delusion.

vision wrote:

snoopy wrote:An agnostic may claim doubt about specifically the existence of God... but we all face decisions on a daily basis where we have to put our money on the table somewhere.

Congratulations, this is what Richard Dawkins wrote about the subject in The God Delusion.

OR we could refer to it as deitphobia, that premise can run both ways

CUDA wrote:OR we could refer to it as deitphobia, that premise can run both ways

Deitphobia? Search engines point to a band of this name, but I think I see what you mean. I'm not sure of your context. Agnostics fear gods? Atheists reject the existence of gods so it would be really strange to be afraid of something you don't believe exists. I'm not afraid of Cthulhu or Apollo or Odin.

and why are people that believe in God delusional?? it's the same premise

If you want to know how nonreligious people can live their daily lives completely indifferent to God's existence, well, we learned how to do it from religious people.

Jeff250 wrote:If you want to know how nonreligious people can live their daily lives completely indifferent to God's existence, well, we learned how to do it from religious people.

I wouldn't doubt that for a second

sigma wrote:I have no doubt that if tomorrow our Creator will come to us as a man and show unrealistic wonders, in this case, modern scientists will want to catch it, to study in order it, the military will want to catch it, in order to use divine miracles for military purposes, and religious clergy and people again will want to crucify God on the cross, because God did not obey the rules set by human clergy.

So true!

Personally, I think our Creator has a sadistic streak.

tunnelcat wrote:Personally, I think our Creator has a sadistic streak.

sorry that would be the absence of our creator that causes that

Jeff250 wrote:If you want to know how nonreligious people can live their daily lives completely indifferent to God's existence...

Perhaps religious people just do not have another method of producing endorphins, except how to believe in God. This is a natural phenomenon, and it is much better than the use of psychoactive drugs. For example, sometimes I get so excited about a great beautiful paintings or music, it can only be compared with intercourse with a girl, which I love. Also, perhaps religious people feel something that makes them believe in God. These are questions of the human psyche, which, in my opinion, even still not well understood.

CUDA wrote:

tunnelcat wrote:Personally, I think our Creator has a sadistic streak.

sorry that would be the absence of our creator that causes that

No, there are times that I think God is helping and watching over me, then at other times deliberately making life extremely difficult or painful for me. If God is running things, then by definition, He has to have His hand in all aspects of life............for reasons I can't fathom other than teaching us something about life. Either that or it's sadism. I guess with God, a person can't always have good times.

sigma wrote:

Jeff250 wrote:If you want to know how nonreligious people can live their daily lives completely indifferent to God's existence...

Perhaps religious people just do not have another method of producing endorphins, except how to believe in God. This is a natural phenomenon, and it is much better than the use of psychoactive drugs. For example, sometimes I get so excited about a great beautiful paintings or music, it can only be compared with intercourse with a girl, which I love. Also, perhaps religious people feel something that makes them believe in God. These are questions of the human psyche, which, in my opinion, even still not well understood.

You may be right for the group of people to which Jeff refers, but I think you tend to underestimate how deep belief in God runs. I also notice how you tend to associate religiosity with a lack of sophistication or intelligence, which again might be true sometimes, but not so in a systematic way.