DescentBB

Krom, slick I suggest you both learn more about science, thermal expansion and water levels:

There are two main mechanisms that contribute to observed sea level rise:[9] (1) thermal expansion: ocean water expands as it warms;[10] and (2) the melting of major stores of land ice like glaciers and ice sheets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_sea_level_rise

I'm simply astounded how basic mechanisms eludes people when ideology rears it mundane head.

Perhaps if I redefine it as how much dihydrogen monoxide is in the cup? I think you will find upon closer inspection that regardless of the phase it is in, 8 ounces of dihydrogen monoxide is 8 ounces of dihydrogen monoxide. But if you melt an additional 2 ounces of dihydrogen monoxide into your cup containing 8 ounces of dihydrogen monoxide you end up with a cup that has 10 ounces of dihydrogen monoxide in it.

And woody, if you were paying attention in school you would have noted that water also expands when it cools.

Krom if you paid attention ice gets denser until it gets to 4c, then it starts to expand. Now the question is, does the cold expansion =/> than warm water expansion?

there are formulae for that, Woody.

Oh, and Will, trust me, I'm a chemist. If you ever described solid-phase water as anything other than water(the gas form is water vapor), you would be greeted by the same gales of laughter I released when I read your words above.

Ice at 4C woody? What planet are we talking about here again? (Note you actually can have water in its solid phase at above the commonly referred to melting point of 0C, but it has to be done at tens of thousands of times the atmospheric pressure found on earth.)

Krom, we're starting to get a bit clearer picture of life on WoodyWorld.

Krom wrote:Ice at 4C woody? What planet are we talking about here again? (Note you actually can have water in its solid phase at above the commonly referred to melting point of 0C, but it has to be done at tens of thousands of times the atmospheric pressure found on earth.)

must be a different planet than you:
"When liquid water is cooled, it contracts like one would expect until a temperature of approximately 4 degrees Celsius is reached. After that, it expands slightly until it reaches the freezing point, and then when it freezes it expands by approximately 9%. "

http://www.iapws.org/faq1/freeze.htm

More than likely those ice formations over the water in the Antarctic have been building up and breaking down over many millions of years.

When they stop growing back…then we should worry.

But of course Woody’s personal opinion is going to doom the country…so the point is moot.

Krom wrote:Once again, sea ice has zero impact on sea levels. Ice already floating in water cannot change the amount of water, a glass of water with an ice cube does not suddenly contain more water when the ice cube melts, nor does it contain less water if you freeze it again.

Why didn’t you tell vision that when he said the ice sheet that broke off of the main sheet is going to melt over the next 200 years and raise sea levels 2 to 3 feet…or was it meters?

..........................

From “Who said this”

vision wrote:I guess you already forgot about the ice sheet that recently broke free of Antarctica. You know, the one that will melt over the next 200 years and raise sea levels by a few meters? Yeah, that one.

I guess some people can say things that prove they don't understand what's up...and some can't.

Will Robinson wrote:None.

assuming none of that new ice melted...2 ounces less any water that froze on contact with the ice upon entering the cup.

that's. not. how it works.

8 ounces of water, when frozen, becomes 8 ounces of ice. when it melts, it becomes 8 ounces of water again. there is no water lost in the transition. suggesting otherwise is simply laughable.

grade five science should have taught you this.


On a different note: replying to anything in EnC has become such a low priority for me, I hardly ever look in here anymore. Last time I was here was about three weeks ago. And; I think I understand you a little more Willy, and I might be correct in assuming you dropped out before going to high school.

callmeslick wrote:Krom, we're starting to get a bit clearer picture of life on WoodyWorld.

Indeed. Although I really have to hand it to Will on this one, I tried to make the experiment as simple and dumbed down as much as I could in a couple minutes of typing it out, however I was unable to anticipate a response that...well... 'Will'fully ignorant would be a good way to put it perhaps?

And sorry Spidey, he posted that after I quit paying attention to the thread, I'll be sure to waste time trying futilely to correct him as well next time.

callmeslick wrote:there are formulae for that, Woody.

Oh, and Will, trust me, I'm a chemist. If you ever described solid-phase water as anything other than water(the gas form is water vapor), you would be greeted by the same gales of laughter I released when I read your words above.

Ooh huh the important chemist is trying to mock my correct definition of water. I'm devastated.
Lol I may be just a peon but I know a thing or two about water too slick.

I work with it everyday to make it change state and temperature.

A lot of people are cool and comfortable here today in South Carolina because systems I designed sold and installed are purring along....taking vapor out of the air in their homes and businesses efficiently changing the state from gas to liquid and then moving it outside in through condensation drains. While that goes on they are sipping drinks cooled by ice machines that I installed and maintain. Eating food protected by refrigeration systems I put in.

From a little under counter ice maker to a 15 story hotel with a 30 ton chiller I put on the roof cooling the air in the elevator lobbies on each floor my understanding of water in all its states is paying me well.

And in spite of what some pompous ass says I, and the guys who work for me, as well as all my contemporaries in my industry all know that water is liquid, ice is solid, and vapor is gas. Those distinctions are quite obvious and useful out in here the real world where the actual application of the science is put to good use.

Too bad you are so consumed with trying to demean me that you don't see how foolish and egotistical you come off by trying to shout me down.

Will Robinson wrote: Ooh huh the important chemist is trying to mock my correct definition of water. I'm devastated.
Lol I may be just a peon but I know a thing or two about water too slick.

I work with it everyday to make it change state and temperature.

yeah by putting an icecube tray in the freezer.

A lot of people are cool and comfortable here today in South Carolina because systems I designed sold and installed are purring along....taking vapor out of the air in their homes and businesses efficiently changing the state from gas to liquid and then moving it outside in through condensation drains. While that goes on they are sipping drinks cooled by ice machines that I installed and maintain. Eating food protected by refrigeration systems I put in.

so you install fridges and AC units. aren't you special.

From a little under counter ice maker to a 15 story hotel with a 30 ton chiller I put on the roof cooling the air in the elevator lobbies on each floor my understanding of water in all its states is paying me well.

And in spite of what some pompous ass says I, and the guys who work for me, as well as all my contemporaries in my industry all know that water is liquid, ice is solid, and vapor is gas. Those distinctions are quite obvious and useful out in here the real world where the actual application of the science is put to good use.

Too bad you are so consumed with trying to demean me that you don't see how foolish and egotistical you come off by trying to shout me down.

Ego trip anyone? Anyone who holds a journeyman ticket in HVAC can do what you do.

Ferno wrote:

Will Robinson wrote:None.

assuming none of that new ice melted...2 ounces less any water that froze on contact with the ice upon entering the cup.

that's. not. how it works.

8 ounces of water, when frozen, becomes 8 ounces of ice. when it melts, it becomes 8 ounces of water again. there is no water lost in the transition. suggesting otherwise is simply laughable.

grade five science should have taught you this.

You don't read very well. I never said there was a loss of anything. Did you really miss that or needed to misrepresent my comments to prop up your lame insult?

I had a little science fun which seems to have exposed the severe humor deficit in some people here. At least Krom saw it for what it was so it wasn't a total loss.

Ferno wrote:On a different note: replying to anything in EnC has become such a low priority for me, I hardly ever look in here anymore. Last time I was here was about three weeks ago. And; I think I understand you a little more Willy, and I might be correct in assuming you dropped out before going to high school.

No, I dropped out of college to be the next rock guitar god but along came Eddie VanHalen who quickly convinced me I was under qualified for that so I fell back on my education and I have managed to turn that foundation into a nice little business as a licensed state mechanical contractor with all the required knowledge and skills to be a success in that field.

Ferno wrote:..

Ego trip anyone? Anyone who holds a journeyman ticket in HVAC can do what you do.

No, as you are learning in your own search for a career, it takes more than just a little knowledge to be truly successful.
But if you ever get that ticket you can work for me...once you get your head on straight that is., and then you'll get to see the difference between what you think you know and what you really don't.

Next time I go to 7 Eleven for some ICE I will just ask the guy for some water, then tell him how stupid he is when he hands me some Evian.

callmeslick wrote:Krom, we're starting to get a bit clearer picture of life on WoodyWorld.

You will note slick that I don't live on a world like you and Krom do where reading skills are lacking. Please point out where I said ice forms at 4c. If you can than you can join us all back in reality. Until then I suggest you stay away from using things like prescription medications as we can clearly see you are using them in the wrong manner.

Ferno wrote:

yeah by putting an icecube tray in the freezer.



so you install fridges and AC units. aren't you special.



Ego trip anyone? Anyone who holds a journeyman ticket in HVAC can do what you do.

And what can you do Ferno except complain about how the cost of living is too high where you live and ridicule a man over what he does for a living. Any journeyman HVAC guy can do some of what Will does, but he can't start a business and run it successfully...no more than you can open your own body shop and run it properly.

woodchip wrote:You will note slick that I don't live on a world like you and Krom do where reading skills are lacking. Please point out where I said ice forms at 4c.

woodchip wrote:Krom if you paid attention ice gets denser until it gets to 4c, then it starts to expand.

woodchip wrote:

sigma wrote: You raised the issue again, which we all know so long ago. But you still have not offered any solutions to this problem.

How do you stop a tornado or a hurricane? A earthquake?

Are you asking me? Japanese know how to build earthquake-resistant houses, Africans know how to build houses for protection against sandstorms, Russian know how to build houses in permafrost (actually seasonal permafrost changes destroy houses and technical facilities as well as earthquakes), while the Americans do not want to change the construction standards and norms in areas of high activity tornadoes and typhoons. Americans will be better to spend trillions of dollars on the maintenance of huge armed forces, than to allocate subsidies to compensate for the costs in the construction of underground shelters in every home for Americans living in areas of exposure to hazardous weather conditions. And this is all the more surprising, that it's a given that the cost of reliable underground shelter for a family is no more than 5 thousand dollars.

find me a 'reliable underground shelter' for tidal flooding, and I'll install one at my other house in Virginia, sigma.

callmeslick wrote:find me a 'reliable underground shelter' for tidal flooding, and I'll install one at my other house in Virginia, sigma.

ahaha in this particular thinking Americans are very similar to Russians. Russians also usually like to blame anyone, but do not seek solutions to the causes of the problems

the 'cause' is warming of the planet, causing the Bay(Chesapeake) to rise quite rapidly. Now, I am all for solutions......they are considering building a sea wall down in Norfolk, and some of us are financing seawalls for the islands in the middle of the bay which are inhabited. Don't sell Americans short, sigma. We have done well with addressing earthquakes along the San Andreas fault out west, and have had storm shelters for tornado prone areas, but for coastal events(hurricanes, etc), the REAL solution is to not build large communities in vulnerable areas. That is why you cannot inhabit a barrier island in Virginia......the same is not true elsewhere.

You're contradicting yourself, callmeslick. Are you concerned about the problem of tides that depend on the Moon, or you are concerned about the rise in global sea level, which was 30 centimeters in the last 100 years, which depends on inversion of the polarity magnetic poles of the Sun and Earth, which, in turn, dramatically affect the influx of cosmic rays and solar wind in the gap magnetic fields of the Earth for intense warming of the polar regions of the Earth, melting icecaps, interaction on the ionosphere, which in turn affects the activity of the air mass, which in turn actively influence the course change and migration of oceanic currents, which in turn actively affect global warming or cooling of the atmosphere, including the number of hurricanes and tornadoes? Have you already decided that you are more concerned with lowering of solar activity, which has already lead to a new ice age, or you are more concerned about the reluctance of the U.S. government to spend the budget wisely in the face of increasing the activity of natural disasters

no contradiction from me, sigma. Perhaps you didn't grasp my situation. I am concerned, and trying to be pro-active as a citizen to protect my home and native peninsula from the effects which are bound to happen. I don't feel, as you seem to, that the US is not spending wisely to address environmental threats. We spend a lot, but in our system of governance, much of those efforts involve not only the central government, but those of individual states and even larger municipalities. Further, private monies are going into amelioration efforts, so the situation is nothing NEAR what you claim it to be.

Will Robinson wrote:You don't read very well. I never said there was a loss of anything. Did you really miss that or needed to misrepresent my comments to prop up your lame insult

I'd say it's you that has a reading comprehension problem. But in typical will fashion, all you can come up with is just another fap-fap-squirt response. And you're just pissed off because I can see right through it. It's a reality check pal. it's supposed to hurt.

Both Krom and I read, re-read, and re-read it AGAIN just to be sure... and we came to the same conclusion. It was just stupid.

No, I dropped out of college to be the next rock guitar god but along came Eddie VanHalen who quickly convinced me I was under qualified for that so I fell back on my education and I have managed to turn that foundation into a nice little business as a licensed state mechanical contractor with all the required knowledge and skills to be a success in that field.

well, this makes more sense than the water post you made.


Here's the thing. When you answered 'none' to Krom's question of 'how much water is there in a cup', you were wrong. The water is still there, in a frozen state. You can argue semantics all you want, but it's still called 'frozen water'.

Also.. 'new water'? what the ★■◆●? water doesn't appear or disappear.

And I hate to break it to you, but krom was ★■◆●ing with you. not the other way around. he even spelled it out for you.

What's the response going to be now? "darr I was just joking!"?

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Spidey wrote:Next time I go to 7 Eleven for some ICE I will just ask the guy for some water, then tell him how stupid he is when he hands me some Evian.

See, that's funny. Mainly because it's true.

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And what can you do Ferno except complain about how the cost of living is too high where you live and ridicule a man over what he does for a living. Any journeyman HVAC guy can do some of what Will does, but he can't start a business and run it successfully...no more than you can open your own body shop and run it properly.

I can do something you can't. Like assisting search and rescue with being able to remotely pilot small aircraft. Just because I don't share all of it here, doesn't mean anything.

Again, what he does is nothing too special. He's not curing cancer, or planning the next moon mission. Praising him for doing a job and earning a paycheque is like giving a child a hundred dollars a day for not stealing. It's time you and him both faced reality.

Ferno when water turns to ice it isn't water. My pointing that out was just to have a little fun. However it isn't without relevance to the topic.

Why is sea ice melting not the same factor that land ice is in the context of rising sea level. That is the context.
Archimedes’ principle is the answer. Factoring density due to salt content not withstanding the seas don't rise from icebergs melting.

What is sadly telling about you is you recognized why Spideys comment was both funny and relevant yet you can't let that wisdom instruct you to get the point behind my comment. I'm the enemy. Realizing the answer to why you let your anger rule you that way would set you free in so many ways but you will have to unlock your misery on your own.

Krom brushed my silliness aside like the gnat it was...as it was intended to be received. He doesn't need to gratuitously hurt me just because he may generally find fault in me. He isn't like that.

As to how 'special' my work is not. That was the point genius! I, the lowly mechanic type can recognize the necessity to use the difference between liquid, gas and solid when working in the real world with water in its different states.

Slick, in a need to find fault suggested that calling ice anything other than "solid phase water" would earn me ridicule from his elite fraternity of windbag asshats.
When is the last time you heard anyone call ice solid phase water? You knew it to be stupid when Spidey pointed it out....

See how far slick had to twist reality to try and demean someone? Why does he need that? He is broken that is why.

Why do you need to be like him?

So now we have the co-founder of Green Peace arguing against global warming:

"Ecologist Dr. Patrick Moore, co-founder of Greenpeace, warned “I fear a global cooling,” during his keynote address to the Ninth International Conference on Climate Change in Las Vegas on Tuesday "
"Moore noted that “the U.S. is currently been cooling” and noted that there has been “no global warming for nearly 18 years.”

http://www.climatedepot.com/2014/07/09/ ... te-claims/

Top Gun wrote:

woodchip wrote:You will note slick that I don't live on a world like you and Krom do where reading skills are lacking. Please point out where I said ice forms at 4c.

woodchip wrote:Krom if you paid attention ice gets denser until it gets to 4c, then it starts to expand.

Doesn't say anything about ice forming at 4c. And if you could at all read, on my next reply I said"

"must be a different planet than you: When liquid water is cooled, "

That's because ice doesn't exist at 4C at standard atmospheric pressure. And tweaking the wording later doesn't change what you wrote in the first place.

Also that Greenpeace guy is a complete idiot, but I'm not surprised to see the Heartland Institute involved. Have you seriously never learned about vetting your sources?