DescentBB

Suicide is always going to be an option for someone whether you like it or not.

And Woody's got it right, don't we always hear how men shouldn't be making laws about what women can do with their bodies. (and the blobs)

that is a fair point(the folks who should decide).....hence, I tried to seek out and toss in the opinion of someone(daughter) who had battled depression and come out better after about 6 or 7 years of false starts and dead ends. I'm amazed that no one seems to get my queasiness about the message sent to others suffering from depression.

also, in response to those who keep insisting we look at this through the lens of abortion debates--I am not, at any time, arguing this Belgium case, or assisted suicide of any type to be IMMORAL, but am trying to focus on the message sent to folks suffering from a widely variant disease state, which is likely several different biochemical or physical issues lumped together as 'depression'. I'm not arguing the principle of assisted suicide being valid, and made that clear at the outset.

callmeslick wrote:...folks who aren't thinking properly, by definition.

There you go making the same mistake as TG with this imaginary "definition." You assigning a value judgment to how you think the world should be versus reality. Severely depressed people do not have trouble thinking, they have trouble feeling, and what they feel is terrible suffering with no relief. You clearly don't have the experience of seeing someone waste away from mental illness, let alone suffering it yourself. Saying "it gets better" feels like the right thing to say, but doesn't match the reality of millions of people. Sometimes it doesn't get better and people suffer for years and even decades before finally ending their lives in violent, painful ways that leave families in shock and despair. It would be better if they could peacefully say goodbye.

And stop focusing on age. Age has nothing to do with it. Refractory depression can affect anyone. It's not something you "grow out of." Some people are depressed their entire lives.

vision wrote:You clearly don't have the experience of seeing someone waste away from mental illness

as you should know, if you read your PMs, you are quite wrong. In fact, experience with family members mental health drives my opinion..

Saying "it gets better" feels like the right thing to say, but doesn't match the reality of millions of people.

massive exaggeration, bordering on utter nonsense.

Sometimes it doesn't get better and people suffer for years and even decades before finally ending their lives in violent, painful ways that leave families in shock and despair. It would be better if they could peacefully say goodbye.

so this is the reason to make it an acceptable recourse for twenty-somethings? You are WAY off base.

And stop focusing on age. Age has nothing to do with it. Refractory depression can affect anyone. It's not something you "grow out of." Some people are depressed their entire lives.

of course some are. For instance, Art Buchwald, who suffered until his late 80s and gave the world some of the most incisive writing extant. I could give other examples, but you will only accept what you wish to accept.

callmeslick wrote:so this is the reason to make it an acceptable recourse for twenty-somethings?

There you go again. Age has nothing to do with untreatable depression. It can affect anyone at any age, just like cancer. Also, the highest risk group for suicide is not people in their 20's, but people in their 40's and 50's. Or maybe you think 40 years is enough time to decide if your life is worth living? Seems like you are making another arbitrary judgment based on personal experience. Can't say I blame you, but it still doesn't hold water.

callmeslick wrote:

vision wrote: Saying "it gets better" feels like the right thing to say, but doesn't match the reality of millions of people.

massive exaggeration, bordering on utter nonsense.

Hardly. Suicide is the 10th leading cause of death in the US. It's higher than traffic accidents, which is higher than homicide by firearm. Give options to those who are. Let them say goodbye to their families and die peacefully instead of leaving family members the job of traumatically discovering the deceased.

Laws enabling assisted suicide and euthanasia provide an avenue for treatment since that is currently a prerequisite. It also signals that society cares about suffering and will do something about it. This will improve quality of life for everyone. Untreatable persons can end their ordeal. Family members will suffer less trauma over the deceased. Treatable people who enter the system will recover. Everyone wins.

Slick: your claim of advanced studies in mental health (sorry, don't remember the exact wording), can you elaborate on that? thesis you wrote, degrees you hold, etc?

not trying to poke holes in you, just curious here.

Ferno wrote:Slick: your claim of advanced studies in mental health (sorry, don't remember the exact wording), can you elaborate on that?

neurochemistry. Supporting writer on a few papers studying neurotransmitters and development(principle authors named Stewart and Gordon, dates in 1976-82).
My initial professional assignment post-grad was setting up the tissue culture laboratory for the Norwich(CT)State Mental hospital's Ribicoff Research Center, in which I established several neuroblastoma lines for the study(again) of neuronic development.
I hold a BS in Biochemistry(1977) and MS in Biological Sciences(major emphases in neurochemistry, physiology, molecular genetics). I taught college level Physiology for two years(paying the stipend for grad school). I moved on to immunochemistry and assay development for clinical laboratory corporations after that initial phase of my career.

my major contact with mental health was not academic, but twofold. Working at a large mental health facility(my office was across from the chief of Psychiatry) exposed me to a bit of knowledge, and two members of my extended family with mental health issues(one quite profound, the other, thankfully treatable)exposed me to a lot of education, as the facilities those individuals received treatment in were pretty good at involvement of family in the healing/management process, and making family aware of the issues unique to mental illness.

vision wrote:Laws enabling assisted suicide and euthanasia provide an avenue for treatment since that is currently a prerequisite. It also signals that society cares about suffering and will do something about it. This will improve quality of life for everyone. Untreatable persons can end their ordeal. Family members will suffer less trauma over the deceased. Treatable people who enter the system will recover. Everyone wins.

I can see your argument, but still wrestle with the laws or approval having the desired effect.

We call it mental illness for a reason, people who wish to die are definitely not of sound mind and not able to think through the consequences. They might have convinced themselves that there is no other way out, but the real burden of who to convince is everyone else around them because they are the people who will be most harmed by the act.

Krom wrote:We call it mental illness for a reason, people who wish to die are definitely not of sound mind and not able to think through the consequences. .

this touches on what I was trying to say. In doing so, I shorthanded it to 'not thinking clearly', which vision might have taken to imply as saying the patients exhibited clouded thinking, befuddlement or the like. Nothing could be further from the truth. Depression is caused by a disruption of neurotransmitter system function(often, but not always around serotonin pathways). The nature of these disruptions don't affect cognitive function, directly, so the patient would be quite focused. However, due to the limitation of pathways, and given that what is perceived as 'normal' thinking patterns depends on processing a mix of signals via the various neurotransmitter systems, the perception at the end is not the typical reality perceived by 'normal' persons. Hence, the depressive symptoms, as the correct mix of pleasure/reward stimuli are greatly reduced, limiting the perceptions to the dominance of the fear/flight stimuli. Note, I put 'normal' in parentheses because, like most of life, there is really just a continuum.

Krom wrote:...people who wish to die are definitely not of sound mind and not able to think through the consequences.

This is terribly insensitive to the pain and suffering of people with depression. You are the third one in this thread to make the fallacy that wanting to die is "incorrect" or "wrong." Kant wasn't able to make a sound argument for preservation and neither can you. It's this kind of viewpoint that continues to stigmatize mental illness in this country and around the world. You might think you are being an advocate for mental health, but you still have a prejudice showing.

Sadly most people who don't have a mental health issue won't or don't want to understand it. I don't have it but I deal with people everyday that do and trust me, it's hard to understand when you try to help them but nothing you suggest works because our experiences are based on no mental health issues.

Krom wrote:We call it mental illness for a reason, people who wish to die are definitely not of sound mind and not able to think through the consequences. They might have convinced themselves that there is no other way out, but the real burden of who to convince is everyone else around them because they are the people who will be most harmed by the act.

I'm of sound mind and I've definitely thought of suicide before. I'm not clinically depressed, but I would get what I call "suicide headaches", real whoppers of migraines. They peaked once I entered perimenopause and I can tell you, I seriously considered suicide back then when those headaches laid me flat day after day and nothing the docs tried stopped them. There are no cures for those damn things, yet. I wish they'd come out with some cures now and I've seen some promising treatments that tell me they're getting close, because I still get the occasional series of headaches that just won't go away. And yes, the thoughts of suicide hit me once I'm suffering from those things. They are agony. I've even got one today that won't respond to my usual treatment of choice, Excedrin. Right now, I'm considering bashing my head against the wall.

vision wrote:

Krom wrote:...people who wish to die are definitely not of sound mind and not able to think through the consequences.

This is terribly insensitive to the pain and suffering of people with depression. You are the third one in this thread to make the fallacy that wanting to die is "incorrect" or "wrong."

...because IT IS. Self-preservation is the strongest imperative that any higher-functioning organism experiences. It's the very core of our instincts. Even in those cases where one individual gives up their own life for the sake of another, it's not because they themselves have a desire to die. The soldier who throws himself on a live grenade to protect his buddies sure as hell isn't doing it just because he has a death wish. Outside of a case like a terminal cancer, where imminent death is pretty much a given, an individual actively wanting to die is a clear indication that something has gone very wrong. Is that something you really disagree with?

Yes, because dealing in absolutes is a big mistake.

Reproduction is also a main driver, and many people choose not to. Is there also something wrong with someone that decides not to reproduce?

Self preservation is an instinct, humans have the ability to overrule instinct, leaving the desire to live dependent on the quality of that life and other factors.

vision wrote:This is terribly insensitive. . .

If someone was going through pain and suffering as a result of mental illness and the only way they could get out of it was to murder someone else, would you still be saying we are "terribly insensitive". Even if it is not by their own choices or control, it is completely accurate to describe the thought processes as Faulty, Wrong or Incorrect. Being sensitive about it doesn't make it any less Faulty, Wrong or Incorrect. And you aren't being sensitive to their pain and suffering either, you are trying to be politically correct and failing completely. This isn't gay marriage; people are physically and emotionally harmed by suicides.

Like I said, the burden is to convince the surviving healthy "normal" people both on a logical and emotional level that this individual would be better off dead. I'm not saying it is impossible, I'm just saying that given what we know about how much someones feelings and emotional states can be programmed and controlled by external forces, it is an extremely challenging burden of proof to obtain.

Sounds like some kind of guilt trip, forcing someone to live to provide for the needs of others.

This is where vision makes his best argument…

You can, die in peace after seeing to your personal and legal issues and perhaps have someone at your side at the end.

Or…

You can hang yourself in the basement like my neighbor did…must have been an awesome experience when his GF discovered him hanging there.

it IS a guilt trip.

Like I said in other areas, this is an issue that gets all bent out of shape, and the people directly affected aren't even consulted. People need to realize that this is essentially others telling the affected what they should and should not do with their lives. It's bull★■◆● and people just need to know when to STFU about it.

It's not a free pass. No one has the right to tell you what to do with your life, so why is it that when it comes to this, that you feel the need to tell a person what to do with THEIR life?

Top Gun wrote:Self-preservation is the strongest imperative that any higher-functioning organism experiences. Outside of a case like a terminal cancer, where imminent death is pretty much a given, an individual actively wanting to die is a clear indication that something has gone very wrong. Is that something you really disagree with?

Look at you with your bad logic and bull★■◆● qualifiers. I'm not even sure how to break this down for you. First, self-preservation, an instinct, is not logical and not under the purview of "rational decision making." That's why they are called instincts. You don't have to think about them. Second, self preservation can be overridden in many circumstances, some of which you mentioned. Third, one of the hallmarks of self-preservation is avoidance of pain and suffering. That's why you use that bull★■◆● qualifier of terminal cancer like somehow it's Ok in that situation and not others. Now imagine what level of suffering a severely depressed person must go through to override the instinct of self-preservation. Mental pain is no less real than physical pain and is harder to treat. You can't just give a depressed person morphine until their body heals, plus there is a limit to the effectiveness of anti-depressants and mood stabilizers, which sometimes exacerbate the situation.

Krom wrote:Like I said, the burden is to convince the surviving healthy "normal" people both on a logical and emotional level that this individual would be better off dead.

A person suffering from refractory depression doesn't have to convince anyone about the worth of their life because suffering is subjective. It is incredibly selfish to think that you or anyone else has a say in someone's personal sense of worth and how much suffering they can or should endure. Your statement is both ridiculous and naive.

As for hurting other people, this is the best argument FOR assisted suicide and euthanasia. Let a person end their life peacefully and in a controlled environment. Don't let your husband find your dead body in the bath tub. Don't let your wife find your decapitated corpse in the garage next to a shotgun. Don't endanger the public when you decide the best way to go is "suicide by cop." Suicide notes aren't as effective as sitting down with your intimate circle and explaining the situation, letting them know you love them, and saying goodbye.

Regarding programming by external forces, this is exactly what all mental heath treatment boils down too. And like I said earlier, much of it is voodoo. Some people have full recoveries. Some people have partial recoveries where they cycle in and out of depression their entire lives. And then there is the subset where no therapy or drugs or surgery helps. Those are the people who need relief. Eventually science will find a reliable, reproducible solution, but until then we can end a lot of pointless suffering today.

vision wrote:And like I said earlier, much of it is voodoo. Some people have full recoveries. Some people have partial recoveries where they cycle in and out of depression their entire lives. And then there is the subset where no therapy or drugs or surgery helps. Those are the people who need relief. Eventually science will find a reliable, reproducible solution, but until then we can end a lot of pointless suffering today.

kinda cutting the deal short for a lot of people, still. Look, what has been learned about neurotransmitters, receptors, inhibition and expression of transmitters, and so on has grown by leaps and bounds since I was in the field over 30 years ago. And, at the root, depression is a screw-up of the neurotransmitter balance of an individual, a descriptive that covers a whole lot of diverse biochemistry. But, it IS fundamentally biochemical in nature, and thus, potentially quite receptive to pharmacology. But, why wait for progress, begone with y'all now, right?

I'm gonna put this bluntly, vision: you're way too goddamn close to this issue. You have a friend who's suffered horribly from depression, and you're taking his case and extending it to millions of situations where it has no bearing. It's been said many times, and rightfully so, that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. What you're suggesting is that we should actively ENCOURAGE people to go that route, instead of continuing to fight and seek help. Yes it is painful, and I will never guarantee that it isn't, but it is never an automatic death sentence.

(And instinctual or not, I'd really like to see your justification for why "stay alive!" is an irrational decision.)

There was this confused moment when my brain hadn't finished processing what I was actually seeing, with this halfway formed question in there of why he didn't respond to our summons if he was just standing there looking at...

And then the steel cable + trusses + body, pieces of the puzzle resolved into a vertical line next to the ladder.

The next thing I see is my mom walking towards me out of the corner of my vision. She can not see, she must not see. Panic fight or flight response kicks in, I grab her and demand we go back to the house. Made it across the driveway and back into the house with her before I realized it, with the imminent disaster averted the panic response ended. Now what? Mom whimpers a question I'm not ready to answer, ignored. The phone! Who do I call? Not thinking clearly enough dialed Dad: No answer. Hang up. Dial 911: Operator answers. What do I say? "Help! I need help!" The operator asks how they can help. And I'm still not ready to answer because explaining it to the operator means I have to admit that this is really happening and it also means I will be explaining it to my mother who I still haven't released. But knowing I have to answer overrides the resistance...

Ok, so maybe I am insensitive to their suffering, but you know what, I think I'm fine with that. Suicide is not something someone decides for themselves, it is something they inflict on everyone around them. I will remain unconvinced.

Suicide is a different topic, Krom.

This is about assisted dying.

Except that in the case of a depressed individual, the end result is really no different, is it?

Top Gun wrote:Except that in the case of a depressed individual, the end result is really no different, is it?

No. Assisted dying is simply a physician assisting an individual who has decided to end their life for reasons they and the physician discussed. Suicide is a decision that has been reached by an individual on their own, and does NOT involve anyone else.

I meant for the people around that individual. I don't think the vast majority of family members out there would be down with a depressed individual seeking out euthanasia.

Ferno wrote:Suicide is a decision that has been reached by an individual on their own, and does NOT involve anyone else.

What counts as a private decision reached by an individual on their own which does not involve anyone else?

We regulate things like firearm ownership and chemical consumption (drugs) because, while they're individual decisions, they affect the community. Suicide most definitely affects the community -- which doesn't necessarily put it in the "never allowed" category, but it definitely puts it outside of the realm of a purely private decision that nobody else should ever have any input into.

Lothar wrote:

Ferno wrote:Suicide is a decision that has been reached by an individual on their own, and does NOT involve anyone else.

What counts as a private decision reached by an individual on their own which does not involve anyone else?

While it's true that the effects of a decision resonate with others, the primary decision rests with the individual exercising their self-determination.

While drugs (in all their forms) and firearms appear to have similar effects on the community on the surface, in truth, the repercussions are quite different. The former elicits anger, pity, distain. the latter elicits sorrow and self-reflection.

If you wish to discuss the ins-and-outs of suicide, we'll need a thread split here.

Top Gun wrote:...you're taking his case and extending it to millions of situations where it has no bearing.

Never once did I say that. I have been clear in this entire thread that the right to die should be reserved for people with untreatable depression. Millions of people commit suicide every year. Giving them the option to seek assisted suicide automatically puts them in the care of professionals whose job it is to help them either get better or help them pass peacefully. If you have such great faith in the current treatments, then obviously the number of suicides in the world will go down and overall suffering will decrease, especially from those who are intimately related to depressed individuals. There are no losers in this scenario. None. Doctors aren't going to be handing out suicide pills and you won't be able to get it at your local pharmacy.