Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 7:43 pmFunny how this country is de-evolving back to the old Wild West Days of vigilante and mob justice at the end of a gun. Is that what people really want now?
What the crap are you talking about, crazy lady? There isn't any vigilante justice going on. Where are the reports of mobs attacking people with guns? There aren't any, unless you count the police, who are doing all the attacking. We are not devolving, we are trying our damnedest to be progressive and catch up with the rest of the civilized world. We want police accountability.
It's happened already and I don't blame any of these business owners one bit. However, it IS vigilante justice. Generally breaking and entering into a business is not a death sentence offense under the law, just as a check forgery charge and arrest is not a death sentence offense in George Floyd's case either. The only difference is that in one case the business owner administered deadly justice and in the other, it was the police who improperly did so. Was it right in either case? Where do you draw the line on who administers what type of justice in a civilized society?
This event happened during the start of the protests and riots in Minneapolis right after Floyd's death. They also list another business owner doing the same thing while protecting his business in Omaha.
Most state laws tend to say that's it's illegal for people defending their businesses to shoot and kill a looter. But in many cases, it depends on the local laws, so any business owner's fate is determined by the mood of the DA and the public's perception if the business owner had a valid reason to kill at the time. However, in Minnesota the law states that a business owner has the duty to retreat, not kill during any confrontation with someone trying to loot their business. I think armed robbery is the usual exception, but not looting. That's where the Philly gun shop owner might get off without being charged, because the looter was armed with a gun. Of course, when defending your home, you DO have the right to shoot to protect yourself in the event of a home invasion in most states.
I think you would have a hard time making the case that vigilantism is "bad" and living under a our current police state is somehow "better". Good luck with that. I 100% the abolition of police. They love to kill innocent people for non-violent acts. I'll take vigilante justice any day of the week over the current crop of criminal thugs abusing the public. Don't bother listing all the different state laws. They clearly have no meaning because no only are police above the law, so are politicians and anyone with a sufficient amount of money.
Don't forget, the only war we have ever fought in this country is the class war between the haves and have-nots. Stop making excuses for bad behavior.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 8:02 pm
by Top Gun
I'm not sure that I'm ready to say "Abolish the police" entirely, but they should absolutely have their numbers and funding massively slashed and diverted toward various social response services. Like, what percentage of police activities actually involve needing to respond with armed force? It can't be more than 10% tops, even in the roughest districts. And yet our society's go-to when confronted with any sort of personal issue is to send out an armed individual whose entire training consisted of drilling in the "fact" that everyone is a potential threat, and every potential threat is a target.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:23 am
by Vander
It's good that "abolish the police" is the starting position of a negotiation, because it puts quite a bit on the table for review. But it's still too narrow.
Personally, I think we put police in the shitty position of enforcing an unjust system. The kind of system that frowns on the people looting $100k of stuff from a Walmart, but glorifies Walmart for making huge profits while dodging taxes and underpaying their employees to the point where they're receiving $6 Billion/yr in anti-poverty subsidies. Ever heard a talking head on TV saying Walmart is looting?
I'm all for demilitarizing law enforcement, but the rot goes a lot deeper.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:56 pm
by Tunnelcat
There's also the issue of the our current militarized police knee-jerk reacting in every confrontational situation with violence and shooting someone when it's clearly unnecessary. The man was running away while he blindly fired a non-lethal Taser behind him that was stolen from one of the officers. For that, the officer draws his lethal weapon and shoots the guy in the back, twice, killing him. There was no justification for shooting him dead for the crime of inebriation and sleeping in a drive-thru. Sure, he was running away with a officer's Taser in hand, but the cops already had his car and probably his license in their hands. They should've just let him run. They would've known where he lived anyway to pick him up later.
And so who commits the ridiculous crime of arson and burns down the Wendy's, making it look like the protestors did it? Some stupid white woman, who the authorities are looking for. Too bad the protestors didn't think to grab her and hold her down to be arrested because several news outlets reported that the protestors burned down the place. They even commented that they were going to get blamed for it.
Oh, and Trump moved his rally date out of respect to blacks and Juneteenth. My friggin ass. I think he realized that some pretty massive protests outside his little boner rally arena would've taken most of the news oxygen out of the hateful message he really wants to spew forth to his nutty MAGA disciples.
Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:56 pmToo bad the protestors didn't think to grab her and hold her down to be arrested because several news outlets reported that the protestors burned down the place.
Did you just promote vigilante justice?
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:13 am
by LightWolf
There is a difference between a lawful citizen's arrest and vigilante justice.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:41 am
by vision
LightWolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:13 amThere is a difference between a lawful citizen's arrest and vigilante justice.
Not according to the definition Tunnelcat provided. You're making a distinction without a difference. One of them just makes you feel better about yourself.
Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:56 pmToo bad the protestors didn't think to grab her and hold her down to be arrested because several news outlets reported that the protestors burned down the place.
Did you just promote vigilante justice?
No, I meant hold her for the police to arrest on charges of malicious arson and to start a criminal investigation, not hold her just to met out justice and beat the crap out of her, or worse. But since you want to get rid of the police and haven't offered an alternative, then we'd have vigilante justice because I'm sure someone would've beat the crap out of her for lack of anything better to do because I'm certain that most of those protestors didn't want to be wrongly blamed for an arson that had nothing to do with the police shooting in the first place other than the location.
Also, Lord Trump is positively ticked off about Bolton's new upcoming and unflattering book and Trump is testing every angle he can to stop it's publication. There's so much slime oozing out of Trump's office, the Orange dam is beginning to leak like crazy.
Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 12:35 pmNo, I meant hold her for the police to arrest on charges of malicious arson and to start a criminal investigation, not hold her just to met out justice and beat the crap out of her, or worse.
Ok just to be clear, you want people to hand over criminals to police who with beat them with no accountability versus vigilantes who will go to jail if they beat someone. Got it. Real smart.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:47 pm
by LightWolf
I honestly find it concerning that you think this is typical behavior for all policemen. How many police brutality cases have we heard about over the past several years? Compared to how big America's combined police forces are? Most policemen recognize that beating the crap out of someone is unacceptable. You don't simply lose a sense of morality by wearing a police uniform.
Now let me ask you this: If there are no police, then who puts the vigilantes in jail? Suddenly you have the masses not being held accountable instead of a select group of people. On top of this, there are many, many more people who are non-police who would tend toward excessive violence than there are police who would do so. So now we've just shifted the problem into a much worse one. But hey, if it's in the name of the leftist regime, then who gets to say otherwise?
If law enforcement is removed, then it will result in lawless anarchy. There was a country that tried combining a highly powerful leftist regime with anarchy: France. Thousands died at the guillotine during that time, and ten million died overall. Do you really want a repeat of the French Revolution in America? Granted, it does take more than removing law enforcement and creating anarchy to trigger something of that scale, but unfortunately we do have the other critical ingredients. Attacks on people who aren't leftist enough? Your reputation is shattered if you dare speak out against the leftists. Your career can be destroyed by refusing to vocally support the leftist movement. I heard a story today about a professor who was being ordered to actively teach and support the Black Lives Matter movement in his classes. If he opts to stay neutral or non-political, then he faces the wrath of the university. Violence everywhere? Riots everywhere. Rioters are attacking and destroying everything they can get their hands on. We're already in the first waves of the American Reign of Terror. God help us to survive this one. Not even Robespierre himself survived his own revolution.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:12 pm
by vision
LightWolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:47 pmHow many police brutality cases have we heard about over the past several years? Compared to how big America's combined police forces are? Most policemen recognize that beating the crap out of someone is unacceptable. You don't simply lose a sense of morality by wearing a police uniform.
If you want to start looking into the stats you're going to have a bad time. Police killed 1,098 people in 2019. Police kill someone every seven hours on average. That's atrocious and is comparable to what goes on in failed and unstable states in Latin America and Africa.
I do believe in fact police have no sense of morality. They couldn't hold the job if they did. Here is a video of Martin Gugino being pushed to the ground. Every one of those cops watched a 75 year old man get seriously injured, then went on to shoot and gas some protestors. That should make you sick to your stomach. And all this is happening during a protest against police brutality. This is them acting on their best behavior.
LightWolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:47 pmNow let me ask you this: If there are no police, then who puts the vigilantes in jail?
This is a small-minded way of thinking. Vigilantism exists in the absence of proper law enforcement. Right now the police are the ones that should be in jail. That's the reality, and that's why these protesters and vigilantes exist in the first place. The vigilantes are not the problem, they are the solution. As communities reform, those same vigilantes will become or be replaced by a more ethical form of policing.
LightWolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:47 pmAttacks on people who aren't leftist enough? Your reputation is shattered if you dare speak out against the leftists.
Don't you dare try to equate lawlessness with left-leaning politics. Anarchy is more closely related to extreme Libertarian philosophy and is on a different axis than left and right. Are you stupid not to know this? Go back to your right-wing propaganda sites and stay out of a conversation you're not educated enough to talk about.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:52 pm
by Vander
LightWolf, don't let anyone fool you. The Left™ needs police. We don't have guns, so we need them to help force everyone into transgender gay marriage abortions.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:18 pm
by TheWhat
Off Topic: This whole left this/right that thing that Vander so eloquently mocked is quite infuriating to me.
I consider myself pretty centrist but my parents were democrats. I currently live with my girlfriend and her moms who are total democrats (I frequently raise their blood pressure slinging blockhead “right wingisms” for kicks ;-] ). Want to know something about these feminist, lefty, Minnesota girls? They’re hunters, deer hunters... it’s Minnesota after all - and we got plenty of guns and ammo locked up in a safe. Want to know what else? They’ll have a completely rational discussion about gun control and anything else you got.
People are shades of grey. This notion that our country is either this or that is nonsense. The United States is 4% of the world’s population and is way more centrist than the rest of the world - we don’t know right or left wing here other than the fringe squeaky wheels. Our political 2 parties have a lot in common deepthroating our corporate masters. Lol
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:48 pm
by LightWolf
vision wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:12 pm
Don't you dare try to equate lawlessness with left-leaning politics. Anarchy is more closely related to extreme Libertarian philosophy and is on a different axis than left and right. Are you stupid not to know this? Go back to your right-wing propaganda sites and stay out of a conversation you're not educated enough to talk about.
I specifically said that anarchy is not enough, and that other factors were required, with rampant leftism being one of the other factors. However, I would like to thank you for taking the time to prove my point: According to you, I'm not left enough, so I should shut up.
vision wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:12 pm
Police killed 1,098 people in 2019.
There are over 800,000 police employed in the US. Assuming every police killing involved 3 complicit officers on average, then only 1 in 250 officers are killers. This is a large number, however it is highly likely that many killings involve fewer than 3 officers. Additionally, if 99% of police are not held accountable (according to your statistics), then most probably committed multiple killings each, which drastically lowers the rates. Some policemen do not deserve to be in uniform. Nobody is denying this. However, most police are honest enough to not senselessly take life.
Something your own statistics showed in the diagram are 3 officers for every 100 who were charged but never convicted. Maybe this is because they're not guilty of senseless murder? While some certainly are, not all police killings are unwarranted. There is such a thing as genuinely being in fear for your life when someone is actively attacking you. (If I imply any killing as warranted, this, and only this, is what I mean. Cases where an officer claims they were under attack but actually were not are not included.) Notice that the circumstances surrounding the killings were never listed - while they want you to assume all these officers killed somebody in cold blood, they didn't even go as far as saying it, let alone supporting it.
While we're going through your own statistics, how about the part where ZERO people were killed by Buffalo, NY police? Are those officers inherently immoral? Even if this is a typo, it still doesn't matter: This statistic is compared to Orlando, FL, where 13 people were killed, with a violent crime rate of 9 in 1000 - Sounds bad at face value, but keep in mind that 13 people total were killed, while there were nearly 2300 violent criminals using the rate and population listed. Once again using the rate of 3 officers per killing and assuming all killings were unwarranted, only 39 in 700 officers are killers. At most 5.7% of the department killed someone. Doesn't sound like every officer on the force is a criminal to me.
Once again, some officers are bad people. Nobody is denying this. However, most police officers are not.
vision wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:12 pmHere is a video of Martin Gugino being pushed to the ground. Every one of those cops watched a 75 year old man get seriously injured, then went on to shoot and gas some protestors...This is them acting on their best behavior.
Where on Earth did you get that? I have never heard of any non-terrorist group where rampant violence was "best behavior". I know an officer; he would be quite offended by that statement.
I would find it reasonable if the officer in question were charged and an investigation into the whole situation launched, however a small handful of incidents in a small handful of areas are not grounds for abolishing an entire nationwide group who are acting on their best behavior.
TheWhat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:18 pmWe don’t know right or left wing here other than the fringe squeaky wheels.
Unfortunately it only takes a couple squeaky wheels to get the entire train moving. If someone is good with words, then they'll sway the center just enough to suit their own ends. I think it's fair to say that this describes most politicians (both parties included) in a nutshell: A couple squeaky wheels trying to get the masses to agree with them just enough to enact their own agenda. I remember a U.S. history class which described how hard the founding fathers tried to make American politics as non-partisan as possible. We all know how that went. People tend to cling to one extreme or another, even when something in-between is best.
I'd love to meet your folks someday. People willing to have a rational political discussion seem quite rare these days.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:02 am
by Tunnelcat
Here come the nationalist gun-toting militia vigilantes, calling themselves the "Civil Guard", to start shooting those damn protestors. You knew it was bound to happen. Protestors who were trying to take down the statue of a Spanish Conquistador of all things and one of the militia members got in someone's face and started an argument trying to protect that stupid statue. The protestor lost the fight because he only brought a skateboard to a gunfight. Oh, and the POLICE arrested a few of those militia members for inciting violence and one for shooting someone. So why are these idiot nationalists trying to protect the statue of a damn Conquistador anyway and why was one erected in the first place? I mean, the symbolism for that is pretty much negative in every conceivable way to every Native American in both hemispheres of the Americas. The Spanish came to the Americas, conquered, sickened, raped, pillaged and murdered millions of Native Americans in their lust for gold and colony formation. That's not something that any American should be proud of I'd think, nor worth shooting someone over.
LightWolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:48 pmAccording to you, I'm not left enough, so I should shut up.
Ah, your poor reading comprehension again. I never said you weren't left enough, I said you were uneducated. You even quoted it, dummy.
LightWolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:48 pmThere are over 800,000 police employed in the US...blah blah blah...math math math...blah blah blah...
You're trying to justify our police state by using right-wing talking points, the same ones that try to justify our piss-poor response to the pandemic. Show the "mortality rate is low" with a little math as if that's the only fk'ing problem. Police killing tons on unarmed minorities is the tip of the iceberg, baby. These stats are always, always, always conservative because most police violence goes unreported. It's only now in the age of cell phones that we can see how bad it really is. And that's just the violence. We haven't even begun to talk about erosion of civil liberties and things like Civil Asset Forfeiture. Qualified Immunity has to go. Police are citizens just like us and need to be held accountable.
LightWolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:48 pmI would find it reasonable if the officer in question were charged and an investigation into the whole situation launched, however a small handful of incidents in a small handful of areas are not grounds for abolishing an entire nationwide group who are acting on their best behavior.
Oh good, as a good little authoritarian apologist I knew it was a matter of time before you resorted to the bad apples defense. "As one bad apple spoils the others, so you must show no quarter to sin or sinners." The original meaning of that proverb is that failure to find and remove bad apples means the whole bunch must be thrown out (because that's something that actually happens to apples).
Here is more of these "bad apples." Bunches and bunches of bad apples. More apples than can be counted. Almost none of these apples will be removed from the bunch.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:08 am
by Vander
I think all the police beating videos from the past couple weeks aren't just an indictment of "bad apples," but also an illustration of poor decision making by Mayors across the country that exploded the situation. I mean, you have people in the streets protesting police brutality, so your decision is to clear the streets using those police? Most of the violent confrontations I've seen video of these past few weeks, including the Martin Gugino video, were a direct result of trying to enforce an arbitrary curfew.
I have a lot of empathy for police being put in untenable situations. This isn't to say their insidious mix of authority, insular culture, and lack of accountability isn't completely toxic. But they are doing what they are asked to do.
If you want to frame this as a right/left issue, and it's an utterly necessary component IMO, you're going to have to look deeper than the cultural posturing that gets passed off as right/left debate in this country. Ownership is what differentiates the two poles of right and left. It's why police unions, and to a lesser extent fire unions, are basically the only unions people on the right support. Why is that? Certainly not because people on the right believe collective bargaining power is good. It's to protect property ownership. The distribution of the rewards of production is not some phenomena where people get what they naturally deserve, it's the outcome of policy choices. The more unequal the distribution, the more force will be required to maintain the distribution, also a policy choice.
It's not an either/or thing. There's a balance to be struck, and what we're seeing now is the result of something out of balance.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 2:05 pm
by Top Gun
TheWhat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:18 pm
People are shades of grey. This notion that our country is either this or that is nonsense. The United States is 4% of the world’s population and is way more centrist than the rest of the world - we don’t know right or left wing here other than the fringe squeaky wheels. Our political 2 parties have a lot in common deepthroating our corporate masters. Lol
On the contrary, the United States is significantly to the right of most other Western democracies. The Democratic Party would be considered center-right in most of Europe, and the Republicans would be decidedly far-right. This country's Overton window is so absurdly skewed that pundits can rant about "leftist Democrats" and not get laughed off the air. If they ever encountered an actual leftist party they'd die of shock.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 6:47 pm
by TheWhat
Well, thanks for the recalibration as compared to some of Europe. I find it interesting that we’d be considered right when people are, in great numbers, demanding the entire police apparatus is changed. Doesn’t seem like something that hard right governments would allow.
I’d still be curious if you could somehow compare the entire human race and not just democracies.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:01 pm
by Krom
I find it amusing when conservatives call out liberals for wanting anarchy and lawlessness. Yes, the same conservatives who have been systematically dismantling every part of government they could possibly get their hands on for decades. (With the exception of anything the military industrial complex wants to keep getting paid for.)
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:27 pm
by Tunnelcat
You're forgetting the Boogaloo Bois Krom. They're the Antifa crazy equivalent on the right. You NEVER hear conservatives talk about these idiot's anti-government philosophy and I seriously doubt Trump has even heard of them either since he never reads anything that doesn't interest him, like money, pussy or his re-election.
And this episode, which happened before the Floyd shooting, is a nod to vision's point about the police racially profiling during interactions with the public and using different tactics based on skin color. Here's Jay Pharaoh, a former SNL actor, who gets the usual black man treatment while walking down an LA street. He gets profiled right off the bat because he looked similar to some black perp. That's all it takes to require a violent guns drawn take down, even though he did nothing wrong other than walk down the street minding his own business. He's never even had a traffic ticket nor ever had a gun pointed at him. But what's more interesting is about 3 and a half minutes into the story, he shows a video of the police somewhere reacting very differently to a clearly violent white man's attempted arrest. Not one shot fired during the whole episode even though the man runs from police AND almost runs over the cop with his car. Geezus.
Lord Trump ain't too happy about Bolton right now. Our Emperor has no clothes. In fact, he's so unhappy he's siccing Barr on Bolton and reclassifying stuff in the book that was previously cleared for publication. Going through a book to make sure there's no classified material is usually non-partisan. Not this time. Trump's cronies are forcing a second go around and threatening lawsuits. Oh, and Trump sought the help of the Chinese president for his re-election after he screwed Ukraine for info on Biden. The man is a pathological serial liar out for himself, not our country. Every Republican who supports him can shove their false patriotism up their collective asses where the sun don't shine. I don't ever want to hear that Lefties are unpatriotic traitors when conservatives have bent over so far backwards they're kissing their own asses for a man who could care less about our nation and it's people.
Top Gun wrote:On the contrary, the United States is significantly to the right of most other Western democracies.
Based on issue polling, most constituencies are further to the left than the people they elect. Lots of reasons, a big one is money.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:37 pm
by LightWolf
I think there's a lot of good ideas in here. There are definitely viable steps we can take to fix the police without throwing it out entirely.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:35 am
by Tunnelcat
The man makes many good points LightWolf. It's too bad that all sides can't sit down like civil people and discuss all his points like adults and come to a consensus to address the problem, because getting rid of the police department in totality is not a solution and will instead create other bigger societal problems. No one will be happy, except perhaps every criminal and extremist, both right and left, out there. Don't forget, we still have crazy people or terrorists who want to do a little mass killing on the side. But working towards that goal requires that everyone calm down and work together and right now, the protestors want the police gone or else and the police don't want to change their practices or they quit. The chasm is wide, just like the political chasm in this country. Vision probably can't wait to yell at me because I think we need a police force. I'm not blind however. I'd love to see real change, because currently, our police forces are way too militarized in training and practice for the general public's good. But you have to look at things from the police officer's side, like the fact that they're risking their lives just being on the job every day, even for something as simple as a traffic stop. But the police shouldn't have free reign to shoot at drunk people who are running away from arrest or suffocating people while arresting them over a stupid counterfeit piece of money being passed at a store. It just isn't right. The fact that most of these people are black is an endemic racialist societal problem that's bled over into the police. Racism is like a fungus feeding on an important plant in your yard. We need to kill the damn fungus, not the plant.
Sunday is going to be interesting in Tulsa. We've got a major gathering of Trump supporters showing up all in one place at one of Trump's boner rallies, surrounded by large numbers of protestors who think Trump and his supporters are a BIG part of the problem. The fact that Trump is even holding the stupid rally in Tulsa is a deliberate act and nothing but a giant a stick being shoved into the eyes of every African American in this country. We're going to see an explosion of epic proportions and it isn't going to be pretty. Thank you Trump for leading our nation into chaos during a time of needed leadership and restraint.
I see our Tyrant-in-Chief just can't resist his dictatorial desires to take total control of everything, all in the effort to protect himself and his cronies from possible or probable prosecution. Whatever happened to a president being in office working for the country, not for himself or his associates?
Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:35 amlike the fact that they're risking their lives just being on the job every day, even for something as simple as a traffic stop.
I thought you watched the video? Cops don't have a dangerous job. That's a myth perpetualted by the state to justify the militarization. Policing doesn't even make the top 10 dangerous job and we give cops millions of dollars and tons of protections.
The only time police are useful in society is when someone is on an armed rampage, but so far they don't do any better than your average armed citizen, so even that use is questionable. I keep hearing you say we need some police, but you've yet to say why. What can the police do that can't be improved on by a citizen's coalition?
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:31 pm
by Tunnelcat
That part slipped by me in the video. Sorry about that. Well, the press isn't helping in that department either. They're always reporting on some cop being shot and murdered, showing the weeping kids and wives at some giant flag waving funeral parade, making it sound like it's a common problem. That's the public impression that we've all been spoon fed for years and now have to deal with, especially since 9/11 and all that military equipment being given to police departments nationwide to armor up their forces, project law and order and to keep those homeland terrorists from killing U.S. citizens. NOW we're all surprised that cops are acting like soldiers and killing citizens in the line of duty? Every time a cop is injured or killed, it's in your face on the news like they want to drill home to us Joe Public types how dangerous it is out there to be a cop. So that's were I formed my misconception of the job of policing as being a very dangerous one.
As for armed rampages, I've just seen our local news stations reporting that most local schools are now considering the removal of police safety officers. I remember after all those horrific school shootings occurred years back that the demand to arm teachers and put police into the schools was so high that many schools brought in the police and didn't think if the consequences. So now they're going back to "arm the teachers" or have a private school employee be armed. Maybe that's better, I don't know. But it's funny how quickly people forget why something was instituted in the first place.
But let me ask you this. If you had a daughter who was raped, or your home was burgled, or some drunk driver killed your spouse on the freeway, how would you go about dealing with the drunks and drug users driving when they shouldn't be driving, the thieves and rapos out there prowling for a mark AND then finding and bringing to justice the perps involved in those crimes? Do you have the resources or the law on your side like most police departments do? I don't.
As for eliminating the police altogether, I realize that the current system is rotten to the core, but I believe it can be reformed instead of being eliminated altogether. What's your opinion of what Camden, New Jersey did, which so far seems a success?
Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:31 pmBut let me ask you this. If you had a daughter who was raped, or your home was burgled, or some drunk driver killed your spouse on the freeway, how would you go about dealing with the drunks and drug users driving when they shouldn't be driving, the thieves and rapos out there prowling for a mark AND then finding and bringing to justice the perps involved in those crimes?
My god, it's like talking to woodchip. You're using all the same appeal to emotion arguments. First off, the police don't do ★■◆● if you are raped. They have an unbelievably bad record when it comes to helping victims of sexual assault.
The police will not help you if your home is burgled. Your stuff is gone. The police report is all you need for an insurance claim. Do we need police to verify your stuff is gone? No.
The police are dangerously incompetent in dealing with drunk drivers. Rayshard Brooks was drunk and sleeping in a parking lot and cops still managed to kill him. Yes, we need some traffic patrols, but what we have today are road pirates that extort money from people on the road. We can do better.
Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:31 pmDo you have the resources or the law on your side like most police departments do? I don't.
A community coalition is the proper replacement for police. It's literally the community pooling resources together to solve problems. It what our tax dollars should be doing instead of paying for this failed system.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:01 pm
by LightWolf
I've got a couple thoughts about the community coalition, but something I should probably know first: Who is eligible to be on a community coalition? All residents in an area? Only people who receive some kind of certification or license?
If all residents are on the coalition, then it is extremely easy for mob mentality to determine what is and is not law and what should and should not be enforced, regardless of what the actual law says. Remember that mob rule was responsible for lynchings in the south. Then the issue was racism, but it could be anything today. We would not be solving brutality in law enforcement, only shifting it to a much more dangerous source.
If a certification or license were required (which is the only way I can think of to make sure only qualified people are in the coalition), likely with associated training, then you have a police force. It might look very different from our current police force, but it is police none the less. And there is still potential for bad police entering the system and killing people without reason. That is solvable with effective safeguards - and what are protesters calling for reform asking for? Effective safeguards. Destroying the current system entirely is not necessary.
Something I'm curious what you think - what is the purpose of the police in the first place?
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:04 pm
by vision
LightWolf wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:01 pmWho is eligible to be on a community coalition? All residents in an area? Only people who receive some kind of certification or license?
That is for each community to decide based on their needs. You can answer this question yourself by looking at your community and asking what kind of problems are the most prevalent and who do you trust to solve them.
LightWolf wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:01 pm...it is extremely easy for mob mentality to determine what is and is not law and what should and should not be enforced, regardless of what the actual law says.
But this is EXACTLY why people are protesting. The police are breaking laws and enforcing laws arbitrarily and not being held accountable for wrongdoings. They are the mob. If given the choice of the current system and taking my chances with a community coalition that isn't completely corrupt from inception, the choice if clear.
LightWolf wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:01 pm...and what are protesters calling for reform asking for? Effective safeguards. Destroying the current system entirely is not necessary.
Right. That's what "Defund the Police" means. Wow, you came to correct conclusion all by yourself!
LightWolf wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:01 pmSomething I'm curious what you think - what is the purpose of the police in the first place?
The purpose of the police is to enforce the will of wealthy land owners, politicians, and capitalists, and protect their assets from the poor and working class. It is 100% class-based oppression and it's also deeply racist.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:46 pm
by LightWolf
vision wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:04 pmRight. That's what "Defund the Police" means. Wow, you came to correct conclusion all by yourself!
My turn to question your reading comprehension. I was talking about effective safeguards that pro-reform protesters want. Last I checked, "Defund the Police" was not one of this group's main demands for reform. Also, last I checked, removing funding from a group is not a safeguard against any behavior for individuals or small groups within the larger group, and it certainly won't be effective to that end.
Also I love how you call your conclusion correct as though anybody who disagrees with you is automatically objectively wrong. That's not how opinions work, Vision. There is better and worse, but 'correct' is something you will very rarely, if ever, find.
vision wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:04 pmThe purpose of the police is to enforce the will of wealthy land owners, politicians, and capitalists, and protect their assets from the poor and working class.
Assets only need protected from thieves, not honest, hard-working people. And enforcing the will of politicians and other groups in power is inherent, as another term for their will is "the law". And, in case you haven't noticed, the law is shifting in favor of lower classes anyway.
vision wrote: ↑Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:04 pmThe police are breaking laws and enforcing laws arbitrarily and not being held accountable for wrongdoings. They are the mob. If given the choice of the current system and taking my chances with a community coalition that isn't completely corrupt from inception, the choice is clear.
You're missing my point. A community coalition simply opens the way for popular will to be treated as law. Disagree with popular will? You might just find yourself at the will of the coalition. Let me put it this way: Would you really want such a coalition in a city of bloodthirsty Trump boot-lickers? Or would you want a group who at least has an oath to uphold the law in place?
Don't forget that equal protection under the law is written in the constitution, meaning that wealthy land owners, politicians, and capitalists are also subject to the law, and said groups have been arrested many times in the past. With popular will driving law enforcement, suddenly equal protection does not apply to those out of favor with popular will.
Also, last I checked, only a handful of police actually committed misconduct. Hardly the mob.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:07 pm
by vision
LightWolf wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:46 pmLast I checked, "Defund the Police" was not one of this group's main demands for reform.
"Defund the Police" is the buzz phrase for all current facets of anti-police activity ranging from abolish to reform. Go back to page 1 for safeguards. A key component of reform is independent oversight of either police or community coalitions, whichever you choose. Defunding the police is less about taking money away as it is about taking away responsibility. We create new positions with new staff and fund those positions with the police budget until we stop seeing people murdered everyday at the hands of law enforcement.
LightWolf wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:46 pmThere is better and worse, but 'correct' is something you will very rarely, if ever, find.
In this case I am 100% correct. This ★■◆● is so obvious that if you don't see it I can't help you.
LightWolf wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:46 pmAnd, in case you haven't noticed, the law is shifting in favor of lower classes anyway.
Ha! Wealth inequality continues to increase at astounding levels. I'll believe the law is shifted toward lower classes when wealth inequality reverses and not a second before.
LightWolf wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:46 pmOr would you want a group who at least has an oath to uphold the law in place?
What the ★■◆● good is an oath? What imaginary world do you live in that because someone takes an oath they act on their best behavior? I think you watch too many movies. Any system that replaces the police has to, by necessity, be better than the police. That means no mob justice. And yes, the police are a mob of low IQ thugs. For every one of them that commits an impropriety there is a whole department to protect them. It needs to stop, now.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:26 pm
by Vander
Tunnelcat wrote:And so who commits the ridiculous crime of arson and burns down the Wendy's, making it look like the protestors did it? Some stupid white woman, who the authorities are looking for. Too bad the protestors didn't think to grab her and hold her down to be arrested because several news outlets reported that the protestors burned down the place. They even commented that they were going to get blamed for it.
Looks like it's probably Rayshard Brooks' girlfriend. Does that alter your opinion?
Tunnelcat wrote:And so who commits the ridiculous crime of arson and burns down the Wendy's, making it look like the protestors did it? Some stupid white woman, who the authorities are looking for. Too bad the protestors didn't think to grab her and hold her down to be arrested because several news outlets reported that the protestors burned down the place. They even commented that they were going to get blamed for it.
Looks like it's probably Rayshard Brooks' girlfriend. Does that alter your opinion?
Yeah, I saw that but I was confused, because the news kept showing videos of his wife, Tomika Miller, who's African American. Huh? But it appears that Rayshard even told the 2 police officers that Natalie White was his girlfriend, so that's how the authorities figured out who to look for while investigating the arson once they saw the security camera footage. They had her name and she matched the many camera stills taken that night, so they put 2 and 2 together. She's still a ★■◆● for burning down the Wendy's, which had nothing to do with the shooting.
However, in light of the many new details that have come out, my opinion of him just dropped a HUGE notch. He had that now wanted arsonist girlfriend on the side and was going out on his wife and kids (don't know if they were separated) AND he was a convicted felon for beating his wife and kids years ago plus a few other crimes under his belt. Nice guy. Still, that's not a death sentence that should be meted out by the police, but I can see why the police officers reacted the way they did when he ran because Rayshard was a violent felon who had jumped parole and was wanted. If arrested, he would've been back in jail asap.
It was a Wendy’s employee that called the police. Does this mean burning down a restaurant is justified? Of course not. Choices are built on choices, though. And we only seem go back through the chain of choices until we find a sinner, and go no further. The makes dealing with systemic issues a challenge because everyone’s a sinner.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:17 am
by vision
Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:57 pmHowever, in light of the many new details that have come out... I can see why the police officers reacted the way they did when he ran because Rayshard was a violent felon who had jumped parole and was wanted.
STOP.
Do not listen to state sponsored propaganda (aka "Copaganda"). You are being manipulated. These "details" are presented only to sway public opinion away from necessary reforms. You reposting this crap is part of the problem. You've been deceived into becoming a tool of the state. Also, this stuff is incredibly racist and perpetuates a stereotype that black people are violent, not capable of reform, and deserve punishment. The only reason this situation escalated into a physical altercation is because the police are not capable of doing anything except using violence.
I'm getting really tied of reading all this garbage you post. You need to brush up on your critical thinking skills and vet your sources better. This "Independent Sentinel" site is a right-wing propaganda outlet. What's with you reading and reposting this crap lately? Are you just reflexively reacting to everything on your Facebook feed? This is how the poison gets in the brain. You'll be like woodchip and thunder bunny in no time.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:12 pm
by Tunnelcat
Fact:. Rayshard was a convicted felon, period. He'd been let out of prison due to Covid-19 and was on parole. One of his felonies was for beating his wife and kids, a reprehensible crime for anyone of any race. I hold a very low regard for wife and child beaters, no matter what their race because I have personal experience with a cold, sexually abusive and uncaring father. Rayshard was guilty of DUI that night and had done it before, a violation of that parole. If he had wanted so badly to straighten up and stay out of a prison system he clearly thought had treated him like a dog as he indicated in that interview, he shouldn't have been drinking and driving after that conviction. You're ignoring the fact that if he'd killed someone while in the act of driving while DUI, he would've been a murderer himself. Personally, he was a cad for having a girl friend on the side when he had a wife and kids to take care of, a girlfriend who participated in an act of arson. By naming her to the police, they now have her name and are looking for her because frankly, burning down someone's business and livelihood because you're pissed off at the police deserves arrest and jail time. I have no pity towards her. His OR her race does not figure in my thinking at all so quit twisting my words. You know nothing about me and I'm definitely not a conservative. My sister royally pisses me off. But I'm willing to see what dirt the other side is spreading and it's not always false. Know thine enemy and heed.
The rap sheet shown on that "right wing" website is legitimate, so any political affiliation doesn't make a damn bit of difference who hosted it. The fact only right wing sites are telling this tale shows me that our press is either scared or selectively ignoring information in favor of the movement. But if the movement ignores what conservatives are thinking and saying about this stuff, we won't win enough hearts and minds to permanently change the race status quo in this country. It can't be done by force of will or ignorance because reading all over the web tells me we are even more polarized over this issue than ever before and in all likelihood, this country probably end up in a second Civil War over it the way things are heading.
But to my point which you seem to be ignoring, Rayshard did not deserve to be shot like a dog and I've stated that before. They should've let him run away. They knew who he was and where he lived. The police not only murdered a man who was only guilty of DUI and resisting arrest, but endangered other drivers and their families in that parking lot when their bullets hit other cars. Yes, this crap happens to black men far more that white men and things need to change with the way we police in this country. You are free to disagree with me, I still believe we need the police. They seriously need to be de-militarized and trained differently before they kill more people for the slimmest of reasons. The system also needs to change as well so we reform and help people out of poverty and crime and turn their lives around instead of tossing them into hellhole jails as a revolving door of punishment. The way things work now, our system is creating more problems than it's solving and as long as that never changes, we'll keep on reliving this national nightmare.
Do not listen to state sponsored propaganda (aka "Copaganda"). You are being manipulated. These "details" are presented only to sway public opinion away from necessary reforms. You reposting this crap is part of the problem. You've been deceived into becoming a tool of the state. Also, this stuff is incredibly racist and perpetuates a stereotype that black people are violent, not capable of reform, and deserve punishment. The only reason this situation escalated into a physical altercation is because the police are not capable of doing anything except using violence.
I'm getting really tied of reading all this garbage you post. You need to brush up on your critical thinking skills and vet your sources better. This "Independent Sentinel" site is a right-wing propaganda outlet. What's with you reading and reposting this crap lately? Are you just reflexively reacting to everything on your Facebook feed? This is how the poison gets in the brain. You'll be like woodchip and thunder bunny in no time.
So we're supposed to happily ignore the leftist propaganda machine using this man to show why police are horrible when the facts do not agree? Anything that disagrees with leftist propaganda is right-wing racist propaganda? I guess official conviction records are just propaganda now.
I don't see anything racist about calling out A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL for his crimes. I read through that article multiple times, and found nothing in reference to anyone beyond Brooks as an individual, his family, the police involved, and the media. No attempt to connect Brooks to any group in general, let alone any race. But hey, I guess it's racist to imply anybody who isn't white is capable of committing a crime.
Remember the bad apples analogy? The one where a few bad cops mean the entire police force needs thrown out? Why not apply that to black people? They have a few criminals; maybe we should throw them out too. Obviously their crimes are indicative of a systemic issue among blacks. If this sounds stupid, it's because it is stupid. A few black criminals doesn't mean the entire black race is criminal. A few bad cops doesn't mean the entire police force is bad.
I do find it funny that it's only the leftist machine that thinks calling out black individuals implies a reference to the race in general. Maybe because they're in denial that they actually believe a couple black bad apples is spoiling the batch? The Democrats have a racist history after all - they were the southern regime during and after the civil war, implemented Jim Crow, and resisted civil rights (to the point of appealing to Republican sexism, which doesn't work on a non-sexist Republican establishment); that sentiment takes a very long time to disappear. Evolution (held dominantly by atheists) guarantees a superior and an inferior - and the Democrats are known for their dislike of religion.
vision wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:07 pmIn this case I am 100% correct. This ★■◆● is so obvious that if you don't see it I can't help you.
And with that we have all the proof we need that the radical brainwashing and manipulation machine was successful. Any consideration of doubt or dissent is not allowed. When presented with facts, write it off as right-wing propaganda, racism, or anything else to discredit the source. Because only the radical machine is correct, can be correct, and everyone who disagrees deserves to be silenced. Perhaps you should re-evaluate why you believe what you do before you tell people to brush up on their critical thinking skills.
Re: The man who became a tyrant
Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:47 pm
by vision
Tunnelcat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:12 pmBut to my point which you seem to be ignoring, Rayshard did not deserve to be shot like a dog and I've stated that before.
If this is indeed your viewpoint then none of the things you posted support it. And STOP POSTING FOX NEWS AS A SOURCE. They are not a news source. Why all the right-wing propaganda, Tunnelcat? Why? What's gotten into your head that you feel compelled to repost racist ★■◆●?
LightWolf wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:32 pmSo we're supposed to happily ignore the leftist propaganda machine using this man to show why police are horrible when the facts do not agree? Anything that disagrees with leftist propaganda is right-wing racist propaganda?
Left-wing propaganda is bad, but that's not what we're seeing here. All this crap about the victim's previous wrongdoing is poisoning the well. The story here is police killed a man in cold blood and are not being held accountable, as they never are. The counter-arguments are bull★■◆●, pure and simple. Again, if you can't see this, you're hopeless. A little kid can understand this stuff.
arrested a few of those militia members for inciting violence and one for shooting someone. So why are these idiot nationalists trying to protect the statue of a damn Conquistador anyway and why was one erected in the first place? I mean, the symbolism for that is pretty much negative in every conceivable way to every Native American in both hemispheres of the Americas. The Spanish came to the Americas, conquered, sickened, raped, pillaged and murdered millions of Native Americans in their lust for gold and colony formation. That's not something that any American should be proud of I'd think, nor worth shooting someone over.